Multiple tanks. and water stability

[babydragon]

Hey there everyone,

I read about large water volumes and better stability with regard to water parameters. I was hoping to get some advice, or suggestions about how I could set up a filtration/circulation system with two 50g tanks (vertically stacked on a tiered frame). I probably intend to leave one empty, but I hoped to have a more stable water system because I'll get busy soon and might have to do less than the suggested daily or alternate day w/cs.

Any advice at all would be appreciated.

Thanks in adv,
Bryan.

[babydragon]

anyone? :inquisitive:

[babydragon]

Okay, seems like no one has ideas of their own.

But after much thinking I have come up with a brief plan, now I need critiques and suggestions on how to improve it. The Plan is below(sorry about the terrible drawing!).

My intial point of stuck-ness.(haha, new word) was that the water on top would always drain out too fast because of the vertical alignment of the tanks, but I figured that if the hole were higher then it would only drain when the water level were too high (sort of an overflow system). So, there.

Fish will be in the top tank. with Hole A draining the water as soon as it reaches too high a level. Water from the bottom will be channeled upward by a filter(some of you say it's typically Asian, and I guess you're right because they're quite common here). The water gets sucked from the bottom tank and dropped into the top one.

Sponge filter goes in the bottom for good biofiltration. My worry is that since the mechanical filter intake is below, the waste on the top(due to the high position of hole A) will not get through the filter and cluster on top. I cannot lower the hole without allowing the water level to be kept lower. The height difference will see the water drained to the bottom too fast, and in too large a volume.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/babydragon_bucket/TankSet-up.jpg

The only other solution I can think of is to use the bottom tank for fish, but viewing-wise that's not good. :/

Thanks!

[akumastew]

You could use the bottom tank as a sort of sump. Which is sort of what you are suggesting.

Use the search function on the website, and search for sump, and you find a number of pages to read.

You could set up a on tnak overflow, with a pump to fit your volume, and you will have 110 gallons of usable water.

- Stew

[tcyiu]

I agree with Stew. What you are essentially doing is creating a very large sump which is a very good thing. With that in hand, you can now search the many resources here and online on how to set up a sump, manage/balance water flow, how to prevent floods etc.

To pick up up the junk on the floor of the top tank, you can either build or buy a hang on back reservoir with an overflow tube that drains to the bottom tank. This reservoir is fed by a siphon tube that extends all the way down to the floor of the top tank.

The benefits are that you are drawing waste water from the lower levels of the top tank with no chance of flooding the bottom tank. The negatives are several fold:
- Maintaining siphon is a pain. If the siphon breaks, and if the pump in the lower tank is positioned incorrectly, the top tank will overflow.
- The junk that gets drawn into this reservoir will accumulate and will need to be cleaned out which could be tight depending on the dimensions of the reservoir.
- These things are expensive to buy (think saltwater tank expensive)

Personally, I would either run a separate cannister filter on the top tank, or do daily maintenance.

Which brings another point. The pump on your typical cannister filter was meant to draw water and return water to roughly the same level. Meaning that the effort to move the water up to the tank is helped by the pressure of the water coming down to the filter.

If you're trying to draw water from the lower tank and move it to the upper tank, the pump may not be strong enough to give you the water flow that you may be expecting. You should experiment with that and be prepared to buy a stronger pump. If you do

Another observation. If the bottom tank is mostly empty, I would fill it with some form of loose bio-media (bio balls, or plastic nylon scrubbers). You will now have a massive amount of surface area for the good bacteria to colonize. The downside is that the new limiter for bacteria growth will be the amount of poop and the amount of oxygen.

One more thing: insulate the heck out of the lower tank. Otherwise, you will have not gained any advantage in reducing temperature swings. (I need to run so I'm not going to detail out the math. But think surface area divided by volume).

Tim

[Eddie]

I would use both tanks for fish and just use an aging/storing tank somewhere else in the house to keep water stable. :D Believe it or not, you will eventually want more discus when you see how well the first tank is doing. ;)


Take care,

Eddie

[babydragon]

Haha! Well, thanks for the advice everyone.

My problem was that I didn't know the right term: "sump". So, I couldn't effectively search the forum for ideas.

Eddie,
Of course the more the better. But like I said, I wanted to increase the water volume to make the whole system more stable than just ageing water before putting it in. The original problem was that I might not have too much time to do too frequent water changes. Chemicals such as ammonia aren't as toxic diluted as I understand it. Heh.

Thanks all.

Bryan.

[babydragon]

Haha, I was just thinking again. and something else came to my mind.

I won't want to change the bottom tank completely into a sump like most people have. Sure, I'll have a sponge filter and stuff there, but I still want to be able to use it for fish in the future (just in case, eh, Eddie?)

I did come up with a way that I think might solve the problem of the water intake tube(of top's overflow) only sucking water from the top as the water gets too high.

I figure the water will collect in a bended tube. and the level will rise to match that of the top tank only when the set level is reached the water will start flowing, and because the mouth of the tube is submerged, the water drawn into the tube will be bottom water. see how I've edited the diagram.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/babydragon_bucket/TankSet-upimproved.jpg

See? I think it's a pretty good idea if I say so myself. HAHA. =)
Now, I just need feedback on whether it will be problematic, or if it won't work at all.

My cheif worry is that dirt will get stuck within the pvc, because the system works by the amount that's overflow, hence, not having a very strong water drawing current, especially in the upward portion,(before the downward to tank on the bottom). Will heavier waste get stuck in the pipe bend?

Thanks much.

[Jhhnn]

The easy answer is to use an overflow box-

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=aquarium+overflow&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=13169319455589974884&ei=rSR3S_HoIYnStAOBmai8Cw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBIQ8wIwAQ#ps-sellers

You're looking at the part that hangs outside the aquarium.

You also need a submersible pump strong enough to lift the water back up to the top tank, over the rim, and a backflow preventer, a way to stop the water from running back from the top tank when the pump is off. Keeping the discharge above the water level in the top tank accomplishes that, as will drilling a 1/4" hole in the return pipe, at or just below the running water level in the top tank.

Normally, sumps are sized and water level set in the upper tank so that if the pump quits, the sump won't overflow, and if the overflow apparatus quits, the top tank won't overflow, either. I don't think you can accomplish that with what you envision, a really big sump...

[tcyiu]

See? I think it's a pretty good idea if I say so myself. HAHA. =)
Now, I just need feedback on whether it will be problematic, or if it won't work at all.


As it is currently drawn, you've created a siphon that draws from the bottom of the tank and won't quit until top tank is almost empty and has overflowed the bottom tank.

You need to add a anti-siphon shown in the drawing in red. This is a pipe that is open at the top and connects to your setup via a T. When water level rises above the U-bend, it will spill down the tube. But a siphon can never be created.

[babydragon]

Thanks very much for adding that. I might've caused quite a mess without your help.

I was just wondering though, if you think a hole would be enough to create such an anti-siphoning situation?

Bryan.

[Jhhnn]

Like this-

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/wetdry_overview.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/wetdry.htm&usg=__sWvMaBwjTVy4yy6WEPzt6ukpRtA=&h=426&w=571&sz=14&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Pb1eYAwPpvbIJM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwet%2Bdry%2Bfilter%2Bdiagram%26hl%3De n%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1

You need a hole in the fittings at the waterline where the piping from the pump makes the u-bend over the top of the tank. Otherwise, water from the top tank will siphon into the lower tank, overflowing it when the pump is off for any reason.

Overflow box detail-

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aquariumlife.net/images/overflow3.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/114.asp&usg=__dWATRvD3XILVn_duRJ8SoeEvFK0=&h=303&w=550&sz=8&hl=en&start=2&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=vy0-CnjEihBy8M:&tbnh=73&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwet%2Bdry%2Bfilter%2Bdiagram%26hl%3De n%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1