9 Bar vs. 14 Bar Health

[underwaterforest]

I have been trying to get some discus and had a problem with my last order getting sick before I got it (14 bar PE x LSS). After talking with the seller it appears that 14 bar fish have a tendency to get sick from disease more often than the 9 bar discus do. This makes sense since the 14 bar had to be inbreed more and have less genetic diversity and therefore a higher propensity for sickness. So my questions is-

What strains of discus would you recommend for overall vigor and health?

Or Conversely

What strains do you not recommend due to disease sensitivity?

[hedut]

for beginner 9 bar is recomend. I have same problem with PE not LSS :o:o

[mmorris]

I had no problems with 14-bar ss.

[underwaterforest]

Thanks mmorris, the 14 bar SS is a strain I am seriously considering for my alternate choice from the LSSxPE cross. It seems I love the colors and patterns more in the 14 bar varieties.

[rickztahone]

any discus should do fine under ideal conditions. granted, there are few strains that are more hardy but never-the-less, all can be raised to be healthy discus.

[Eddie]

I'm the same, 14 bar are just as vigorous as 9 bar IME.


Eddie

[roundfishross]

who's had a ss jump out of the tank? they seem to be a little more spookie!

[ShinShin]

Has anyone else heard this about the 9 bar vs. 14 bar? I haven't and have never had any particular problems with them. Personally, I would like to have that explained to me because I've seen SS with as many as 16 bars and as few as 6.

Mat

[diamond_discus]

I was told that inbreed is probably the reason why some of the spotted strains are weaker .. Breeders sometimes need to inbreed more to get the better spots .. .but the draw back is that will make that batch weaker .. However, that doesn't mean that all 14 bars are weak ..

[yim11]

Has anyone else heard this about the 9 bar vs. 14 bar? I haven't and have never had any particular problems with them. Personally, I would like to have that explained to me because I've seen SS with as many as 16 bars and as few as 6.

Mat


First I've heard of it myself, never even read about it. I've got both 9 & 14 bar and have never noticed a difference health-wise.

Seems like if there was a difference it would be noticed in some of the SS batches since they throw both 9 & 14 bar?

[jaykne]

I have had 2 PE's that I lost to bloat and was tald by a couple sponsers that they are a weak strain, I was even told by one breeder and sponser on here that he has lost allot of PE's due to the same thing he does not get them anymore they almost all die due to bloat. I hate it because I really love PE's but both I have lost to bloat those are the only fish that I have lost due to bloat.

[dan1]

I have 5 Super Eruption and 4 of them didn't make it. The strange thing was I had an outbreak and they were able to survive but a couple of weeks later, one by one stopped eating and metro couldn't save them. IME, some of the 14 bars are a lot weaker especially the Super Eruption, Penang Eruption, and Golden LSS.

[Scribbles]

This is the first that I've heard about 14 bar discus being weaker than 9 bar. I've never noticed a difference in health/hardiness between them.

Chris

[dpt8]

Never heard of that. Due to outcrossing some discus batches have both 9 bar and 14 bar babies, the 9 bar being the 'throwbacks". Why wouldn't those 9 bars be weak ?? Sometimes bloating may be an occurance due to shipping if the discus were fed too much right after they were received. I wait 4 or 5 days before I feed my discus too heavily if they are just shipped in. I really LOVE my 9 bar Eruptions.. Heavy spotting from the mouth to the base of the tail, and then the lower part of the tail is lightly spotted to the end. I have 5 together in a 65 gl. and they look great. Most people like those the best. Try those out to be on the safe side if you like spotted discus..

[tdiscusman]

Same here, never heard that 14 bars are weaker. My SS and LSS, grow the fastest, are just as hardy as any others.

Tony

[underwaterforest]

I'm still a little confused. It sounds like there are some problems with PE and PE cross strains, but most people have no problems with 14 bars in general. It is good to hear that 14 bars aren't extremely weak in the vitality department, most of the discus I like are 14 bar type. I'm still bummed that people have had bad experiences with the PE strain, I still love how they look. I'm starting to look at the 14 bar LSS for my next discus strain since most people appear to be having no problems with them. Thanks everybody for your views, my discus learning curve is slowly progressing with your help.

[Wahter]

I don't think you can count on 9 bars being healthier than 14 bars - I think it depends on whoever the breeder is (that breeder's selection) - how many times they've been line bred, outcrossed, etc...



Walter

[Jhhnn]

I don't think you can count on 9 bars being healthier than 14 bars - I think it depends on whoever the breeder is (that breeder's selection) - how many times they've been line bred, outcrossed, etc...

Walter

I'm sure that's the truth. Discus aren't like purebred cats, dogs or horses- breeders can and do outcross their lineages to keep 'em strong. That's tougher, I suspect, with PE's, for example, because they're very highly bred and very distinctive. Kenny has been offering some LSSxPE fish that would likely be quite vigorous, closely resembling PE's. There's not much else to outcross with, unless the breeder is prepared to breed the F1 outcrosses back into the original line thru several generations to have fish that can legitimately be labelled as PE's...

More ordinary snakeskins are just a color/pattern variant of turqs, so it's a lot easier to create outcrossed offspring that are saleable. There are literally dozens of lineages of turqs and even wild blues or greens that can be crossed with snakeskins to produce some snakeskin progeny, with those being bred back into the original snakeskin lineage or together...

As a beginner, myself, it seems to me that it's smart to start with fish having strong genetics, that probably haven't been linebred too much. Consequently, I have some highly variable 14 bar blue scorps (BDxSS) and some 14 bar RSxAF, all from Kenny.

It's also smart, I figure, to not spend a lot on each fish, not a first. If I mess up and lose a tankful of $50-60 fish, it wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be quite the same as losing a tankful of $300 fish, either...

Mike Beals, of Central Ohio Discus, just received a large shipment of Jeffrey Yang fish. He's offering some altum snakeskins at a very good price. Their ancestors were created not too far back from crossing SS with AF... He also has some adult green turqs and snakes, very likely siblings, that illustrate the relationship between turqs and snakes. Check it out-

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77158

I've not dealt with him, but his reputation is quite solid...

Or wait and see what Kenny has coming in next...

[underwaterforest]

Thanks Jhhnn, Walter, your comments make a good deal of sense to me. I'm sure the 9 bar vs. 14 bar thing the seller was telling was most appropriate to the fish he had on hand rather to all discus in general.

From JHHNN

As a beginner, myself, it seems to me that it's smart to start with fish having strong genetics, that probably haven't been linebred too much. Consequently, I have some highly variable 14 bar blue scorps (BDxSS) and some 14 bar RSxAF, all from Kenny.

I'm still contemplating on what to get since I am likely going to get the fish from Kenny on his next order. I'm thinking on getting all of one variety becuase of it's advantages: Less stress between discus since all are siblings and relatively the same size to also limit aggression. I know starting with all the same discus puts me in a bad place for breeding, genetics wise but as long as I can get a relatively vigorously line this shouldn't cause too much trouble. I'm sure as I get more addicted to the hobby I will be able to add new genetics in slowly and see what happens, but I have to get my fish before I start contemplating all of that.

[Jhhnn]

Thanks Jhhnn, Walter, your comments make a good deal of sense to me. I'm sure the 9 bar vs. 14 bar thing the seller was telling was most appropriate to the fish he had on hand rather to all discus in general.

I'm still contemplating on what to get since I am likely going to get the fish from Kenny on his next order. I'm thinking on getting all of one variety becuase of it's advantages: Less stress between discus since all are siblings and relatively the same size to also limit aggression. I know starting with all the same discus puts me in a bad place for breeding, genetics wise but as long as I can get a relatively vigorously line this shouldn't cause too much trouble. I'm sure as I get more addicted to the hobby I will be able to add new genetics in slowly and see what happens, but I have to get my fish before I start contemplating all of that.

I think you're making good choices. I wouldn't be concerned with the genetics of Forrest's fish, or with breeding siblings, at least not for several generations. Selection, inbreeding and linebreeding are the tools used to create modern varieties of all domestic animals.

And it's always important to put first things first- you still need to obtain fish and rear them before breeding is even a consideration. Lots of time and territory between here and there. Breeding wasn't really much of a consideration when I came back to discus- I just wanted fish that were beautiful, vigorous and healthy, plus I'd developed a fascination for the fineline markings of snakeskins in general. That mutation hadn't even been discovered when I last kept discus.

Now is probably a good time to talk with Kenny. He's between shipments, and likely already has a good idea of what Forrest will be sending. Increasingly, their fish are spoken for prior to shipping, prior even to pics being posted. They're that good- you don't have to see 'em to buy 'em, at all- you just have to know what you want. Even if you don't know, exactly, Kenny will help you figure it out.

[hedut]

I think you're making good choices. I wouldn't be concerned with the genetics of Forrest's fish, or with breeding siblings, at least not for several generations. Selection, inbreeding and linebreeding are the tools used to create modern varieties of all domestic animals.

And it's always important to put first things first- you still need to obtain fish and rear them before breeding is even a consideration. Lots of time and territory between here and there. Breeding wasn't really much of a consideration when I came back to discus- I just wanted fish that were beautiful, vigorous and healthy, plus I'd developed a fascination for the fineline markings of snakeskins in general. That mutation hadn't even been discovered when I last kept discus.

Now is probably a good time to talk with Kenny. He's between shipments, and likely already has a good idea of what Forrest will be sending. Increasingly, their fish are spoken for prior to shipping, prior even to pics being posted. They're that good- you don't have to see 'em to buy 'em, at all- you just have to know what you want. Even if you don't know, exactly, Kenny will help you figure it out.

I don't know why but I only have problem with 14 bar PE others like SS or any kinda SS no problem. that's why I stay away from PE line. never had them more than three months :(

[William Palumbo]

I have had troubles with the LSS's myself, either being the first to get sick, or just so touchy to breed. Is why I won't touch a spotted fish now, other than a RSG. Have not had any spotted strains in years. Regular SS's I have zero problems with...Bill

[roundfishross]

I have had troubles with the LSS's myself, either being the first to get sick, or just so touchy to breed. Is why I won't touch a spotted fish now, other than a RSG. Have not had any spotted strains in years. Regular SS's I have zero problems with...Bill


my lss pairs are breeding like crazy:D No health issues, but the smaller ones do seem to be a little less hardy. imo

[hedut]

I have had troubles with the LSS's myself, either being the first to get sick, or just so touchy to breed. Is why I won't touch a spotted fish now, other than a RSG. Have not had any spotted strains in years. Regular SS's I have zero problems with...Bill

me too stay away from spotted fish :D:D:D. but now I try AESS:D:D:D

[underwaterforest]

Now is probably a good time to talk with Kenny. He's between shipments, and likely already has a good idea of what Forrest will be sending. Increasingly, their fish are spoken for prior to shipping, prior even to pics being posted. They're that good- you don't have to see 'em to buy 'em, at all- you just have to know what you want. Even if you don't know, exactly, Kenny will help you figure it out.

Will do. I'm going to be giving Kenny a call soon and finalize my order. I still haven't decided what to get, I think that is the hardest part. But I'm sure with Kenny's/Forrest's quality I will be happy with whatever I get.


me too stay away from spotted fish :D:D:D. but now I try AESS:D:D:D

What a AESS hedut? An albino eruption snake skin?


my lss pairs are breeding like crazy No health issues, but the smaller ones do seem to be a little less hardy. imo

Congrats Ross I sure like those LSS you have.

[vss]

As a general guideline, it is widely accepted that pigeon blood, turquoise, and brown-based discus are most robust and vigorous. However, I agree with most people here that the vigor and health are more related to the specific line, breeder, its generation, and the way it is raised and color-enhanced. I've been told that 14-bar snakeskin, spotted, albino, and golden-based discus are generally weaker, but based on my limited experience (I have only bought fish from Kenny) they are as vigorous and hardy as other strains. I think Kenny is a very good choice if you want some hardy and healthy discus. You can also check with him which strains arrive in the best condition and which strains are the hardiest, if it is a big concern for you. Kenny is an honest and great guy to deal with and I'm sure he will not disappoint you.

The growth rate is another issue. from my own experience, golden-based, albino, and LSS grow slower than other strains given the same health condition and the amount of food they eat. Some snakeskin lines grows extremely fast and huge, like both of my 14-bar SS fish (one blue scorpion and one altum flora x red snakeskin).


HTH. :)

-Xiaofei:)

[Jhhnn]

I'll agree with VSS about the snakeskins & growth. A couple of the 4" BS I received from Kenny last April are now real whoppers, maybe 7", and none of them are small... not even the one that has some sort of vision problem or coordination problem- it really has trouble getting small bits of food, but rips right into the frozen chunks with gusto...

I also have some of Forrest's 14 bar RSxAF, which are growing well, and more uniformly than the BS did. I'm not sure that they'll be quite as large as some of the BS, but they won't be miniature discus, that's for sure...

As I offered earlier, it's probably smart to go with reasonably priced 3-1/2" to 4-1/2" fish the first time around. If you're successful, they won't be the last you'll buy, rest assured. It's easy to get carried away...