My water may be forcing me out of the hobby!

[Yassmeena]

Although I haven't narrowed down the problem definitively, I strongly suspect that my water has changed, and that it now contains dissolved gases.

I've been losing many discus lately after water changes. This all started with two deaths in my show tank about 10 days ago, both separately after water changes. At that time I noticed many small bubbles in the water, like a glass of sprite or gingerale.

To rule out other causes, I moved my fish from the showtank to a QT that had only a new sponge filter and dosed only prime (suspecting it was a toxin in my showtanks filter or an interaction between prime and the bio-start).

Today I lost two more in the QT after a 60% WC.

Going back several months to an incident in which I lost an entire tank of adults after doing several WCs back to back, at that point the cause of death was mysterious. But now I suspect the dissolved gases may explain it.

I'm not sure about all this conclusion though. I don't know how to test it, and then if it is true what that means for me as far as discus keeping is concerned...

:(

Yasmin

[whitedevil]

the bubbles are oxygen, all tanks do this, especially when the water going in is colder then the water in the tank.

too many WC's can throw the tank back into a cycle and cause stress which can lead to death. its the same for all tropical fish. that much of a wc is too much for any tank, over half the water at a time isnt good for the environment(tank).

How soon after the WC's did it go cloudy?

[phatdave]

Where do you live?

Can you contact your local water company and ask them about any changes that might have occured?

Does the water test the same?



Dave

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

It sounds like you have a case of super saturation. More or less, every gas has a saturation point in water at normal pressure (1 atmosphere). When water is pumped through piping under pressure (40-50psi for normal tapwater), the same gases that are saturated at a normal pressure have the ability under certain circumstances to become super saturated in the water. When the pressure is no longer there to keep the super saturated gas dissolved in the water, it is released and goes back to its normal saturation point (like when it goes from tap water line into fish tank....). This release is what you see as bubbles on the tank walls. This super saturation can kill fish very easily, especially with nitrogen super saturation.

Luckily there is a relatively easy fix for it. Just degas the water prior to using it and the gas saturation points will be brought back into equilibrium. Now you dont say if you do water changes directly from the tap (I am assuming so based on assumption), but just simply aging the water overnight will do the same trick. Also, what is your water source? City tap or well? Well water is notorious for having these issues. Regardless of source, treatment is the same prior to using. You can either age it overnight, or use a degasing tower for quicker use.

-Ryan

[Yassmeena]

Where do you live?

Can you contact your local water company and ask them about any changes that might have occured?

Does the water test the same?



Dave

Hi Dave,

I live in Michigan. I have not contacted the water company yet, but something must have changed because for over a year I did 95% WCs with no ill effect EVER. All of a sudden now my fish are spazzing out after water changes!

I will call the water co on Monday, but I ran across something interesting on their website... Some homes have tested for high levels of lead in their water (exceeding Federal standards) and they are making changes to address the issue. (yes this is a whole can of worms in itself!)






It sounds like you have a case of super saturation. More or less, every gas has a saturation point in water at normal pressure (1 atmosphere). When water is pumped through piping under pressure (40-50psi for normal tapwater), the same gases that are saturated at a normal pressure have the ability under certain circumstances to become super saturated in the water. When the pressure is no longer there to keep the super saturated gas dissolved in the water, it is released and goes back to its normal saturation point (like when it goes from tap water line into fish tank....). This release is what you see as bubbles on the tank walls. This super saturation can kill fish very easily, especially with nitrogen super saturation.

Luckily there is a relatively easy fix for it. Just degas the water prior to using it and the gas saturation points will be brought back into equilibrium. Now you dont say if you do water changes directly from the tap (I am assuming so based on assumption), but just simply aging the water overnight will do the same trick. Also, what is your water source? City tap or well? Well water is notorious for having these issues. Regardless of source, treatment is the same prior to using. You can either age it overnight, or use a degasing tower for quicker use.

-Ryan

Hi Ryan,

I do change right from the tap. What is a degassing tower?

I don't know anything about aging water. I wonder if there is a way to do it discreetly and efficiently... :confused:

ALSO... I have pictures. After the stress/death-inducing WCs I notice these white streak marks on the dorsal fin and tail, and they resolve into blisters after a day or two before going back to normal. Has anyone experienced this?

http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/yasminnagm/IMG_1986.jpg

http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/yasminnagm/IMG_1988-1.jpg

http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/yasminnagm/IMG_1990.jpg

[Eddie]

Very sorry to hear Yas, thats awful. I would age your water as Ryan recommends and see what that does. Can I get more information the symptoms the fish are displaying prior to dying? I'd like to know the exact behavioral/physical characteristics.


Eddie

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Those bubbles you see in the fins are a classic example of gas super saturation. I'll post up more info tonight regarding degassing towers...

-Ryan

[Finatic]

Yas,

where do you live in Michigan? I would say the bubbles are just oxygen when you are filling the tank, but you obvioulsy have something happening when you do your WC's. It kills me to see your beautiful fish under such stress, but Im sure Eddie can get you on the right track with some more info.

Good luck, and we'll keep our fingers crossed for you.

[Yassmeena]

Very sorry to hear Yas, thats awful. I would age your water as Ryan recommends and see what that does. Can I get more information the symptoms the fish are displaying prior to dying? I'd like to know the exact behavioral/physical characteristics.


Eddie

Hi Eddie,

Thanks. I am going to have to do something. I'm not sure how feasible aging is. I actually don't know anything about it... :o

So the fish are fine and happy as I drain the water. As I the water fills they huddle closer and closer. Some seem to lose their balance a bit, leaning on their sides slightly.A few minutes after the tank is full the most afflicted start darting around, sometimes trying to jump out of the water.

I have seen them die in two ways. Either they dart and then just suddently die right after the WC. Or they become lethargic and lie to their side and die quietly a couple hours after the water change.

Hope that's enough info?

Yas


Those bubbles you see in the fins are a classic example of gas super saturation. I'll post up more info tonight regarding degassing towers...

-Ryan

Thanks Ryan. I hope to find a reasonable method for doing safe WCs.

Also, it's been suggested that I may be able to get by with 25% WCs from tap every other day rather than larger ones 2x a week?

Thanks you guys!!!!! This is no fun, but it's nice to have your support and advice.

Yasmin

Finatic - I live in Northville (by Canton). I know you're a bit further, but have you noticed any changes in your water? I was also wondering if this may have anything to do with the carp issues. I know it seems like a distant connection, but it's a possibility I'm willing to explore.

[Eddie]

Depending on your current set-up, a storage barrel under your current tank would be most discrete. In fact, another tank would work well depending on the dimensions. Add a heater, air stone and then use an internal pump to pump water up to your tank.

Eddie

[GlennR]

Yas,

What kind of water tests have you done? You didn't mention any measurements or what they normally, were did you? You only mentioned the water looks gassy, but perhaps something else is also different.

If it's only over saturated by oxygen maybe refilling more slowly would help.

[Yassmeena]

Depending on your current set-up, a storage barrel under your current tank would be most discrete. In fact, another tank would work well depending on the dimensions. Add a heater, air stone and then use an internal pump to pump water up to your tank.

Eddie

I was thinking the same, but it seems for efficiency I would need to 2 containers under my tank:

- one to hold aged water ready to add into the drained showtank,
- one to fill with tap water while the water from the other barrel is being pumped into the show tank.

Other wise WCs would take 2X as long, but this way I can only change have the amount at once.

Any ideas for a better system?

Thanks Eddie!

Yasmin

[Yassmeena]

Yas,

What kind of water tests have you done? You didn't mention any measurements or what they normally, were did you? You only mentioned the water looks gassy, but perhaps something else is also different.

If it's only over saturated by oxygen maybe refilling more slowly would help.

Hi Glenn.

Nothing has changed as far as amm, nitrate and nitrite. This has been going on for a while so I don't have immediate readings, but in the very recent past they have all been normal.

[joanr]

What's going on with the Carps?

[Wahter]

I was thinking the same, but it seems for efficiency I would need to 2 containers under my tank:

- one to hold aged water ready to add into the drained showtank,
- one to fill with tap water while the water from the other barrel is being pumped into the show tank.

Other wise WCs would take 2X as long, but this way I can only change have the amount at once.

Any ideas for a better system?

Thanks Eddie!

Yasmin

Just setup an empty barrel (I used to use a spare empty aquarium tank of the capacity which you want to change the water), fill it up with tapwater (I even stuck a heater inside to warm it up to match the temp in the main tank), add your dechlorinator, stick in an airstone (I used a powerhead with a venturi to aerate/ degass). Let the water sit for awhile (overnight works fine). The next time you drain your tank, hook up a hose to another powerhead and use that to fill your tank from the aged water tank. When you've topped off your main tank, fill up the empty aquarium and repeat the process again. After I accidentally killed some zebra pl*cos during water changes, I've done this aging the water routine and things have been fine.

Hope this works for you,


Walter

[Eddie]

Just setup an empty barrel (I used to use a spare empty aquarium tank of the capacity which you want to change the water), fill it up with tapwater (I even stuck a heater inside to warm it up to match the temp in the main tank), add your dechlorinator, stick in an airstone (I used a powerhead with a venturi to aerate/ degass). Let the water sit for awhile (overnight works fine). The next time you drain your tank, hook up a hose to another powerhead and use that to fill your tank from the aged water tank. When you've topped off your main tank, fill up the empty aquarium and repeat the process again. After I accidentally killed some zebra pl*cos during water changes, I've done this aging the water routine and things have been fine.

Hope this works for you,


Walter

Ditto what Walter suggests. This is what I do with my fry rearing as I also have a great amount of gas in my water. My adults/sub-adults and larger juvies don't mind it too much but it does stress them out a bit. It would surely kill my fry.


Eddie

[Finatic]

What's going on with the Carps?

Asian Carps are working there way up the Illinois rivers closing in on the great lakes. If they make it into the great lakes, it would be devastating to the indigenous fish there. Asian carp are very invasive and kill or drive away everything around them.

Several states are working to close the river systems into the great lakes to prevent this. I dont know if this would be a cause of it with but i dont think so.

Something is in your water, probably chloramines. I think you need to go to the bucket method until this gets figured out. Using buckets, you can at least add your water treatment and let age for even a few minutes before adding back into your tank.

5 mins with prime in the bucket should draw out the baddies in your water. I know this is a slow method, but it should work until you can figure out a more efficient method of aging with a storage barrel.

[Yassmeena]

Just setup an empty barrel (I used to use a spare empty aquarium tank of the capacity which you want to change the water), fill it up with tapwater (I even stuck a heater inside to warm it up to match the temp in the main tank), add your dechlorinator, stick in an airstone (I used a powerhead with a venturi to aerate/ degass). Let the water sit for awhile (overnight works fine). The next time you drain your tank, hook up a hose to another powerhead and use that to fill your tank from the aged water tank. When you've topped off your main tank, fill up the empty aquarium and repeat the process again. After I accidentally killed some zebra pl*cos during water changes, I've done this aging the water routine and things have been fine.

Hope this works for you,


Walter

So what Walter is suggesting is to drain the main tank into the sink and fill it with aged water simultaneously?

Otherwise, changing my water would take 2x as long with only 1 barrel following this method. Or am I missing something?



Ditto what Walter suggests. This is what I do with my fry rearing as I also have a great amount of gas in my water. My adults/sub-adults and larger juvies don't mind it too much but it does stress them out a bit. It would surely kill my fry.


Eddie

So Eddie, you exclusively use aged water?

Thanks,
Yasmin

[Eddie]

So what Walter is suggesting is to drain the main tank into the sink and fill it with aged water simultaneously?

Otherwise, changing my water would take 2x as long with only 1 barrel following this method. Or am I missing something?




So Eddie, you exclusively use aged water?

Thanks,
Yasmin

Only with my fry tanks. I go straight tap with older fish but it can stress them sometimes with the high amount of gas in my water. It is more work but something you will HAVE to do if you want your fish to survive and thrive.

Eddie

[Spardas]

What are the dimensions of your stand and do you have any room left to fit a tank underneath?

Do you have a closet very close by to store a large water tank? It wouldn't be twice as long once you figure out everything the first time around.

1) Find size and suitable location.
2) Get another heater and good aeration for the water storage unit.
3) Get a pump and put it in water unit and have it pump directly back to the main tank.
4) Time how long it'll take to fill your storage unit so you can just give yourself an idea of when to come back to turn off the sink valve.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Aging your water by loose definition means nothing more than storing it in what ever suitable container/vessel where it is heated and aerated, making it ready for immediate use (water changes). Your storage container/vessel can be a 35 gallon rubbermaid trashcan, a 55 gallon plastic drum, or whatever suitable sized container that is food safe and will hold enough water to exchange 100% of the tank water at any given time. It adds a layer of safety by allowing the water to become degassed, heated, and pH stable....it will produce less stressed fish and minimize problems.

-Ryan

[exv152]

Yasmeena, I noticed you didn't mention anything about testing the parameters of your water, and that you didn't age the water? Is that right? The pH of the water you're putting in your tanks may be too far from the water they're used to. Osmotic shock can kill fish in much the same manner you described - quickly or within hours of the WC. Look up osmoregulation.

[Scribbles]

Sorry to hear about all of your troubles Yas. I was also wondering if you are getting a PH shift during wc in addition to the gas issue.

Chris

[Yassmeena]

What are the dimensions of your stand and do you have any room left to fit a tank underneath?

Do you have a closet very close by to store a large water tank? It wouldn't be twice as long once you figure out everything the first time around.

1) Find size and suitable location.
2) Get another heater and good aeration for the water storage unit.
3) Get a pump and put it in water unit and have it pump directly back to the main tank.
4) Time how long it'll take to fill your storage unit so you can just give yourself an idea of when to come back to turn off the sink valve.

I have room under my stand. I'd have to look into the dimensions to see what size containers can fit, and spare room for my filter.


Only with my fry tanks. I go straight tap with older fish but it can stress them sometimes with the high amount of gas in my water. It is more work but something you will HAVE to do if you want your fish to survive and thrive.

Eddie

Man oh man.... I miss my "old" WC routine already!


Aging your water by loose definition means nothing more than storing it in what ever suitable container/vessel where it is heated and aerated, making it ready for immediate use (water changes). Your storage container/vessel can be a 35 gallon rubbermaid trashcan, a 55 gallon plastic drum, or whatever suitable sized container that is food safe and will hold enough water to exchange 100% of the tank water at any given time. It adds a layer of safety by allowing the water to become degassed, heated, and pH stable....it will produce less stressed fish and minimize problems.

-Ryan
I see Ryan, it makes sense. Did you find out anything about the degassing towers?


Yasmeena, I noticed you didn't mention anything about testing the parameters of your water, and that you didn't age the water? Is that right? The pH of the water you're putting in your tanks may be too far from the water they're used to. Osmotic shock can kill fish in much the same manner you described - quickly or within hours of the WC. Look up osmoregulation.


Sorry to hear about all of your troubles Yas. I was also wondering if you are getting a PH shift during wc in addition to the gas issue.

Chris

I should check pH! I'll check the tank and the tap at the same time, looking for a difference.

[hope]

:)Yas, FYI: I had a similar issue and called the water department. I have a great supervisor who worked with me and explained that they add chemicals for some type of pipe problem that makes the ph outrageously high, and they do not add the chemicals consistently so the ph changes day to day. I started aging my water and testing ph. Then, I started doing 2 smaller water changes. Either way I just wanted you to know that maybe the water company will be able to assist you with this and once you find out what the status is, you will probably be able to deal with it. For me, it is easier to do a couple small water changes than age water for all of my tanks, I was advised on this site that if the ph is within 1 point they can handle it. So far both my adults and juvies are fine with the water changes.

Maybe it's best not to do water changes until Monday when you speak with them, and just cut back food today. Either way - please don't stop with Discus, I love your pics and posts! I learn a lot!:)

[Yassmeena]

:)Yas, FYI: I had a similar issue and called the water department. I have a great supervisor who worked with me and explained that they add chemicals for some type of pipe problem that makes the ph outrageously high, and they do not add the chemicals consistently so the ph changes day to day. I started aging my water and testing ph. Then, I started doing 2 smaller water changes. Either way I just wanted you to know that maybe the water company will be able to assist you with this and once you find out what the status is, you will probably be able to deal with it. For me, it is easier to do a couple small water changes than age water for all of my tanks, I was advised on this site that if the ph is within 1 point they can handle it. So far both my adults and juvies are fine with the water changes.

Maybe it's best not to do water changes until Monday when you speak with them, and just cut back food today. Either way - please don't stop with Discus, I love your pics and posts! I learn a lot!:)

Hi Hope, thanks so much! I really love discus keeping and these past couple of months have been very discouraging with these constant losses. :(

In a way, narrowing down the problem has alleviated some of my stress and now I am starting to feel like this may be manageable, and I may be able to continue successfully raising discus.

I will call the water company and hopefully find someone knowledgable and helpful to assist me. And yes - no water changes this weekend!

Thanks for your suggestion,

Yasmin

PS - btw Hope, are you saying that now you don't age your water but rather limit your WCs to smaller amounts more frequently?

[Wahter]

So what Walter is suggesting is to drain the main tank into the sink and fill it with aged water simultaneously?

Otherwise, changing my water would take 2x as long with only 1 barrel following this method. Or am I missing something?


Thanks,
Yasmin

The only thing I think you're missing is patience - sounds like you're in a rush to get it done! Take your time when you're doing the water changes, when people rush, that's when troubles happen - people have said:

-"Forgot to unplug the heater and now it's cracked"
-"Forgot to plug the heater back in and now the temperature of the water is cold"
-"Forgot to turn the filter back on"
-"Forgot to put the cover back on and the discus jumped out"
-"Forgot to keep an eye on the tank and now it overflowed while I was filling it up"

Just take your time when you drain and fill your aquarium tank, as for filling up the tank which you are using to age the water, that doesn't take a whole lot of time at all - run a python (or other hose) from your faucet to the empty tank while you're feeding the fish and watching them. One container/ tank for aging water is enough.

"Haste makes waste"



Walter

[Jhhnn]

If the pH is right, and I suspect it is, then your deduction wrt entrained gasses is probably correct. The bubbles under the skin of your fish seem definitive, as somebody remarked earlier. The ones that perished probably had bubbles in more critical areas of their bodies.

Aging and aerating will definitely get the gas balance right. You may be able to de-gas sufficiently with a simple mod to your water outlet in the tank. Think of a u-tube hanging on the tank, and a flat deflector on the outlet, inside the tank. Incoming water would hit the deflector, spray out in a thin sheet inside the tank, splash strongly against the sides, creating a lot of surface area and agitation for the incoming water, promoting gas exchange.

I'm not sure that will be sufficient, but it might be...

Alternatively, a bucket with holes in the bottom could be partially filled with bioballs, set on top of the tank, and the incoming water sprayed onto that with something like a lawn sprinkler. Gas will readily escape because of the thin layering and large surface area....

I've not been faced with this particular issue, so those are just suggestions, untested hypotheses....

[Yassmeena]

The only thing I think you're missing is patience - sounds like you're in a rush to get it done! Take your time when you're doing the water changes, when people rush, that's when troubles happen - people have said:

-"Forgot to unplug the heater and now it's cracked"
-"Forgot to plug the heater back in and now the temperature of the water is cold"
-"Forgot to turn the filter back on"
-"Forgot to put the cover back on and the discus jumped out"
-"Forgot to keep an eye on the tank and now it overflowed while I was filling it up"

Just take your time when you drain and fill your aquarium tank, as for filling up the tank which you are using to age the water, that doesn't take a whole lot of time at all - run a python (or other hose) from your faucet to the empty tank while you're feeding the fish and watching them. One container/ tank for aging water is enough.

"Haste makes waste"



Walter

Hi Walter,

Thanks. I promise I don't do anything in a hasty fashion, especially concerning my pricey and beloved discus. :)

It's just that being a mom, wife and dental student does not leave me much spare time, so I need to find methods that work with my schedule. ;)



If the pH is right, and I suspect it is, then your deduction wrt entrained gasses is probably correct. The bubbles under the skin of your fish seem definitive, as somebody remarked earlier. The ones that perished probably had bubbles in more critical areas of their bodies.

Aging and aerating will definitely get the gas balance right. You may be able to de-gas sufficiently with a simple mod to your water outlet in the tank. Think of a u-tube hanging on the tank, and a flat deflector on the outlet, inside the tank. Incoming water would hit the deflector, spray out in a thin sheet inside the tank, splash strongly against the sides, creating a lot of surface area and agitation for the incoming water, promoting gas exchange.

I'm not sure that will be sufficient, but it might be...

Alternatively, a bucket with holes in the bottom could be partially filled with bioballs, set on top of the tank, and the incoming water sprayed onto that with something like a lawn sprinkler. Gas will readily escape because of the thin layering and large surface area....

I've not been faced with this particular issue, so those are just suggestions, untested hypotheses....

Hmmm... now there's an interesting idea, putting together an attachment of some sort to degass water a bit right out of my python. I like that!

In fact Kenny just called me and suggested that instead of submersing my python I should leave it at the water surface to let water splash in, thus degassing a bit.

I wonder if I could design some sort of turbulence chamber or something. Hmmm... wheels are churning.......

Any ideas anyone?

Yasmin

[scuba guy]

Check the ammonia level of your incoming tap water AFTER you filter it through carbon. It's possible that your water company has switched over from using just chlorine to using Chloramine. If you don't use carbon to filter the tap water - then use a swimming pool test kit to test for "total" chlorine (not just free chlorine).

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/disinfection/chloramine/index.html

Chloramine is nasty. It does not remove easily from water and kills bacteria (your bio-filter) and fish if not removed properly. Aging does not work. It would take over a week for standing water to "de-gas" chloramine.

Worse - Chloramine will actually break down easily into both Chlorine and ammonia when filtered through carbon. The carbon will break the chloramine bond and remove the Chlorine and leave behind high concentration of ammonia. Chlorine will be gone - but the ammonia is left.

We do water changes thinking we are helping our fish and removing nitrates and we end up loading the aquarium with ammonia. I learned the hard way and lost a lot of fish after water changes until I checked with my water company on what they add to the water and adjusted accordingly.

The easiest way to elminate Chloramine is to use Prime. But I don't like the by-products of Prime. So I run my tap water through a very large carbon filter very slowly. Carbon will remove ammonia but needs a lot of contact time. And I test for Ammonia every time I do a water change just as the water enters the aquarium.

(And I add my tap water through the sump filter so the bacteria can get at the ammonia before it gets to the aquarium).

Test for ammonia and let us know. Hope this helps.

[90 Gallons of Fun]

The easiest way to elminate Chloramine is to use Prime. But I don't like the by-products of Prime.

What are the "by-products of Prime"? I have not read any mention of this before.

Thanks,
Rich

[Yassmeena]

Check the ammonia level of your incoming tap water AFTER you filter it through carbon. It's possible that your water company has switched over from using just chlorine to using Chloramine. If you don't use carbon to filter the tap water - then use a swimming pool test kit to test for "total" chlorine (not just free chlorine).

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/disinfection/chloramine/index.html

Chloramine is nasty. It does not remove easily from water and kills bacteria (your bio-filter) and fish if not removed properly. Aging does not work. It would take over a week for standing water to "de-gas" chloramine.

Worse - Chloramine will actually break down easily into both Chlorine and ammonia when filtered through carbon. The carbon will break the chloramine bond and remove the Chlorine and leave behind high concentration of ammonia. Chlorine will be gone - but the ammonia is left.

We do water changes thinking we are helping our fish and removing nitrates and we end up loading the aquarium with ammonia. I learned the hard way and lost a lot of fish after water changes until I checked with my water company on what they add to the water and adjusted accordingly.

The easiest way to elminate Chloramine is to use Prime. But I don't like the by-products of Prime. So I run my tap water through a very large carbon filter very slowly. Carbon will remove ammonia but needs a lot of contact time. And I test for Ammonia every time I do a water change just as the water enters the aquarium.

(And I add my tap water through the sump filter so the bacteria can get at the ammonia before it gets to the aquarium).

Test for ammonia and let us know. Hope this helps.

Hi scuba guy,

If I use Prime anyway (I do) then is chloramine a potential issue, since you mentioned that it's eliminated by Prime?

Just trying to understand, and thanks for your help. :)

Yasmin

[diamond_discus]

Yasmin ... sorry to hear about the loss .. are they the recent ARM who got from Kenny ? I didn't spend the time to read thru everything in this thread ... but I can share with you my experience ...

Up to two weeks ago, I used three 55 gallon water barrel to age my water for at least 24 hrs, with heater and air stone ... However,since the electric bill is too high in the winter, I decided to look for alternative.

I have a household water softener .. that's why I didn't want to use that water and have a plumber to get do some work in my garage to use regular tap water for aging.

Now that I decided not to use aged water, I took the chance to use household soft water. I adjusted the faucet to the right amount of temperature and use a python house to fill water directly from the faucet to the tank ... I do large water change daily (thanks to Eddie ... ) ... The first day I did that, I saw bubbles attached to my fishes .. and they looked very stress and not comfortable ... I was so scared .. I didn't know what to do ... So the next day, I only use the same method to do 50% ... But bubbles still exists in the tank after WC ... I did lost one fish for no reason and I am not sure if it's related or not ... So after a few days, I changed my water change method.

Since I still have the three 55 gallons water barrel, I decided to fill the soft water to those barrel first, with water temp adjust to 90+ ... I let the water sit in the storage for 4+ hours (with an airstone) before I do the big water change ... You know what ? After that few hours, there is not more bubbles in the tanks, and the water drop to around 84 to 86. All fishes are fine. There might be a little bubbles, but not attached to the fishes and I didn't see any sign of stress ...

My conclusion is : don't fill the water directly from the faucet to your tank .. Let it sit for a few hours ...

I am not sure if this would work for you since you have a planted tank. All my tanks are bare bottom with only sponge filter and power filters.

Good luck with your fish ... I hate to see you getting out of the hobby .. Don't give up .. There are so many other experts here who can help you.

BTW, I do use prime when I add new water to the tank. I recently change to Seachem Safe powder .. Thanks to Eddie again, that Safe powder is much more economical.


-Larry

[Yassmeena]

Yasmin ... sorry to hear about the loss .. are they the recent ARM who got from Kenny ? I didn't spend the time to read thru everything in this thread ... but I can share with you my experience ...

Up to two weeks ago, I used three 55 gallon water barrel to age my water for at least 24 hrs, with heater and air stone ... However,since the electric bill is too high in the winter, I decided to look for alternative.

I have a household water softener .. that's why I didn't want to use that water and have a plumber to get do some work in my garage to use regular tap water for aging.

Now that I decided not to use aged water, I took the chance to use household soft water. I adjusted the faucet to the right amount of temperature and use a python house to fill water directly from the faucet to the tank ... I do large water change daily (thanks to Eddie ... ) ... The first day I did that, I saw bubbles attached to my fishes .. and they looked very stress and not comfortable ... I was so scared .. I didn't know what to do ... So the next day, I only use the same method to do 50% ... But bubbles still exists in the tank after WC ... I did lost one fish for no reason and I am not sure if it's related or not ... So after a few days, I changed my water change method.

Since I still have the three 55 gallons water barrel, I decided to fill the soft water to those barrel first, with water temp adjust to 90+ ... I let the water sit in the storage for 4+ hours (with an airstone) before I do the big water change ... You know what ? After that few hours, there is not more bubbles in the tanks, and the water drop to around 84 to 86. All fishes are fine. There might be a little bubbles, but not attached to the fishes and I didn't see any sign of stress ...

My conclusion is : don't fill the water directly from the faucet to your tank .. Let it sit for a few hours ...

I am not sure if this would work for you since you have a planted tank. All my tanks are bare bottom with only sponge filter and power filters.

Good luck with your fish ... I hate to see you getting out of the hobby .. Don't give up .. There are so many other experts here who can help you.

BTW, I do use prime when I add new water to the tank. I recently change to Seachem Safe powder .. Thanks to Eddie again, that Safe powder is much more economical.


-Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your advice. That makes sense, but unfortunately it's a rare day that I am home for four hours to allow the water to sit. Maybe on weekends it would be a nice way to save some heating $...

My immediate focus is going to be to try to find a way to degass the water a bit. But I have aging close by on the back burner. :D

Yasmin

[diamond_discus]

Yasmin :
Another important thing to check is the pH of your tank water, compared to the faucet tap water. If there is a big difference, then your fish might have pH shock if you do a big WC ..
For my water, the pH doesn't chance much from tank water, to tap water, and to aged water (1day to 3 day). So, I never need to monitor my pH anymore. But in your case, you might want to check the parameter.

I got home from work every day around 6 pm .. I immediately fill up the storage barrel. I wait until 11 pm before I do my daily water change. That's 4 or 5 hours for me ..

For the time being, perhaps you can try reducing the daily WC amount .. Don't feed any beefheart and try using cleaner food .. So you don't have to change that much water daily.

Another suggestion, perhaps adding more airstone might help to degass the water sooner ? I am not sure ..

Sorry I can't offer much more help .. By no mean I am any expert here but just want to share with you my experience .. Hang in there.

-Larry

[Yassmeena]

Hi folks,

So if I end up aging my water, I can probably store enough for say a 50%WC.

Is this considered unadvisable? I'd love your feedback!

Thanks!

Yasmin

[rickztahone]

hey Yas, sry you are going through so many problems. if it is in fact an aging issue due to gassing i suggest you venture more into what another member said and make a de-gas tower. all it really is is a large tower that is packed with bio-balls or something else similar in size that is just as porous. when the water trickles through the tower (it has to be tall) then it de-gasses. this might not eliminate everything but IMO it should great help. this way you won't have to age your water. what John suggested is also a good idea with a U-joint and one of those flat spouts that shoots water everywhere. that way you can just point it to the tank glass and create more turbulence, turbulence is the key. HTH

[scuba guy]

Hi scuba guy,

If I use Prime anyway (I do) then is chloramine a potential issue, since you mentioned that it's eliminated by Prime?

Just trying to understand, and thanks for your help. :)

Yasmin

Prime eliminates Chloramine by breaking the bond between Chlorine and Ammonia. The chlorine is then reduced to chloride and the Ammonia is reduced to Ammonium which is much less toxic to fish and then removed by your bio-filter over 24 hours. If you had NO bio-filter action, the Ammonium ion would revert back over 24 hours to ammonia - which is why Prime is somewhat useless in an uncylced tank. Prime buys a cycled tank time for the bio-filter to work.

[scuba guy]

What are the "by-products of Prime"? I have not read any mention of this before.

Thanks,
Rich

Mostly salts - ammonium chloride for one. The amount is small of course - and with regular water changes the amount you add stays constant assuming you don't over dose. My feeling is if I can get rid of the chlorine (carbon) and then get rid of the ammonia (big - hungry bio-filter) - then why add the salts ....

I have prime on hand just in case I need it. But the only way I know is by testing the water during a water change to verify the carbon is doing its thing and the bio-filter is handling the load (I have a 50-75 gallon sump/trickle filter under the aquarium). Sometimes I add water too fast and a faint reading of Ammonia will show up in my test (very low - but present) and then I'll add Prime and slow the water change. Because the aquarium is cycled with lots of substrate, wood, rocks and two other eheim filters - I don't believe the little ammonia left will last long in the aquarium.

[scuba guy]

Hi scuba guy,

If I use Prime anyway (I do) then is chloramine a potential issue, since you mentioned that it's eliminated by Prime?

Just trying to understand, and thanks for your help. :)

Yasmin

check your ammonia levels - verify that you are using enough prime - and keep in mind - prime is only good for 24 hours - so if your bio-filter is damaged for some reason - then you essentially have an uncycled tank.

Chloramine is nasty. It kills bacteria and if it gets into your aquarium first without the bond getting broken AND the chlorine removed - then the Chloramine will do to your bacteria population what the water company wants it to do to any bacteria in the water mains. Think about that.

It is vital that Chloraminated water NOT see the light of day in your aquarium. When you use PRIME it should be mixed with your incoming tap water first and allowed to react. And then put into the aquarium.

[hope]

:)Yas, sorry I've been "offline" and didn't answer your question right away. In my personal experience, I found that the chemicals added to the town water dramatically heightened the PH - but not consistently because they only add chemicals sporadically. I started aging my water in a barrell in one of my bath tubs and ran it with a pump but the whole process was time consuming and unattractive. I was advised by one of the administrators that if the ph was within 1 point they would probably not have a problem, so rather than age my water what I do now is change 20-30 percent at a time. I test tap water daily for ph and only modify on those dates they add chemicals affecting ph. So- if your ph is higher as a result of added chemicals, you could do smaller water changes more frequently so that the mix of old/new water did not cause more than a 1 point variance in ph.

Good luck!

[KMB]

Hi

This may be something to try.

I have the same issues as you with the supersaturated water. I don't have my fish yet but I knew I had to get to the bottom of this problem before they showed up.

I tried this - I drained the water down to just above the inlet siphons and left the filters running. The spray bar from my Rena on the one end and the spout style outlet from the Fluval really agitated the water. (I had the stereo on while doing this and just gave up and turned it off it was so noisy.) The end result was no bubbles. They must have been driven off by the filter water return.

I hope this might help out.

Kevin

[diamond_discus]

Hi folks,

So if I end up aging my water, I can probably store enough for say a 50%WC.

Is this considered unadvisable? I'd love your feedback!

Thanks!

Yasmin

Yasmin,
You are going to get many different opinion/answer on this question. How much WC and how often .. Very tough question and it's different for everyone.
Ideally, I think the best way is to use a self-dripping system with overflow. New water is constantly being added to replace old and dirty water. However, this requires lots of planning and some plumbing work ,etc. Most of us has tanks all over the house .. in the living room, dinning room, fish room/garage .. So a central system might not be possible. As you saw photos from asian breeders (Like Forrest and Lucky Tropical), they do huge water change once or multiple time daily. Some of their tanks don't even have filters, sponge filter, or even heaters ... But again, those method might not be practical for some of us.
So, I just want to share with you my experience. I use both power filter (with carbon) and sponge filters in my community tanks. I use 10x water flow power filters for each tank, and at least one or two sponge filter in each tank as well. For example, for my 90 gallons tank, I use two Emperor 400 filters (which is rated 480 gallon per hours). So with two, I have 960 gallons per hour of filtration. I also added two big sponge filters with a powerful air pump (I found that a strong pump with make the sponge filter works better). With this among of filtration, I can afford to change water every other day. If I am busy, sometime I even change water once every 3 days but I do 95% water change. As long as you don't overfeed and your fishes are healthy enough to eat all the food quickly, your water should be fine and doing a daily 50% WC should be okay. For the day that you don't do WC, just use a siphon hose to clean up some of the poop and uneaten food before you go to bed every day. If you don't over feed, you shouldn't have extra food left at the bottom by the time you go to bed.

BTW, I have some cory and albino BN plecos in the tank to clean up some uneaten food.

I really think you should try to age your water. I brought three 55 gallon food grade water barrel (those blue plastic one). To pump the aged water to the tank, I brought a pump from Jehmco and a python hose. I asked John (from Jehmco) to add a python adapter to the pump. For the python hose, don't buy the big long one. I brought multiple 20ft extension hose. It's easier for storage and cleaning purposes.

I am going back to my routine to do 90% WC every other day .. My wife wants me not only to cut down electric bill, but also water bill and gas bill .. Got to make her happy or I won't be able to keep more discus .... I think I am okay with my routine. But again, this might not work for others.

Hope this all make sense to you.

-Larry

[Yassmeena]

So far, solutions seem far and few. :(

The best option would be to age, BUT I can't find a container that would fit under my stand! I have a bowfront, and the stand footprint dimenions from the inside are 44" L x 9.5" W at ends, 13.75" W at center.

Next option would be to run a wet dry filter (i.e. Eheim 2227), leaving the intake low so I can run it during a WC. That would require keeping the outlet high so I can let the new water run through the filter and splash in. BUT the Eheim manual says the intake and output must be at the same level in the tank.

The next option would be to do WCs as normal attaching a trickle tower somehow, but I can't find any designs online except for koi ponds (not exactly applicable to my application) and have no clue how to make one for an indoor aquarium.

The next option is to rely on surface agitation while filling the tank. But this seems so risky with such expensive fish!

I feel like I am really close to having to give up on the hobby. :(:(:(

[scuba guy]

So far, solutions seem far and few. :(
I feel like I am really close to having to give up on the hobby. :(:(:(

I didn't read in this thread if you actually did a water test on the incoming water! Before you give up - take an ammonia test of your aquarium now. Also - test your tap water - what is the reading? Report that here.

De-gassing water will not bother your fish. Ammonia will kill them ... especially if it is coming from the tap water ... so do the measurements.

Also - NO MORE WATER CHANGES right now until you know what's going into the aquarium. Your fish are better off not getting stressed by whatever is in the water. Chances are you won't lose any more fish since the water is cycling back to normal.

Again - do the ammonia test and let us know if you get Yellow in the vile or green.

(p.s. Prime is not magic - it helps, but if you by any chance got Chloramine into your bio-filters - it can wreck havic and you will still have an ammonia problem. Test the water to be sure - absolutely sure).

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Yassmeena;617488]So far, solutions seem far and few. :(



Have you determined the problem yet? The solution depends on what the problem is. Obviously "something's" changed with your water supply.

When you have figured out what's changed the solutions will be clear. Until then you/we are just guessing. You wouldn't want a Dr to "try" this or that unless he had determined your problem. This is the same.

As Scuba Guy said "give us some numbers" to go on.

[Yassmeena]

I didn't read in this thread if you actually did a water test on the incoming water! Before you give up - take an ammonia test of your aquarium now. Also - test your tap water - what is the reading? Report that here.

De-gassing water will not bother your fish. Ammonia will kill them ... especially if it is coming from the tap water ... so do the measurements.

Also - NO MORE WATER CHANGES right now until you know what's going into the aquarium. Your fish are better off not getting stressed by whatever is in the water. Chances are you won't lose any more fish since the water is cycling back to normal.

Again - do the ammonia test and let us know if you get Yellow in the vile or green.

(p.s. Prime is not magic - it helps, but if you by any chance got Chloramine into your bio-filters - it can wreck havic and you will still have an ammonia problem. Test the water to be sure - absolutely sure).

Hi - I know this is a long thread, but ammonia from the tap and in the tank are the same, zero. Measured several times out of curiousity and desparation!

What I have not measured is pH but I plan on taking water samples to the store Monday for measuring: tank, QT and tap.

I'll also call the water company.

[kaceyo]

There is really no guessing about this one. The bubbles on the glass, which are new, and the bubbles in the fish fins, tell the whole story. Aging the water is really the best way to go here, and it will have other benifits too. A degassing tower would help but invilves taking up room that could just as well be used to hold water for aging. Splashing/ spraying the water while filling would help too, but it's less sure than aging and can get messy. Once you get the water aging barrel/tank set up you'll see it's really no big thing.
You'll need a fauscet adapter to run a hose from your fauscet to your aging barrel. They sell them with the python extras at most online places like Foster and Smith.
In the mean time, do smaller wc's and let it splash into the tank as Kenny suggested. It's really an easy fix.

Kacey

[diamond_discus]

So far, solutions seem far and few. :(

The best option would be to age, BUT I can't find a container that would fit under my stand! I have a bowfront, and the stand footprint dimenions from the inside are 44" L x 9.5" W at ends, 13.75" W at center.

Next option would be to run a wet dry filter (i.e. Eheim 2227), leaving the intake low so I can run it during a WC. That would require keeping the outlet high so I can let the new water run through the filter and splash in. BUT the Eheim manual says the intake and output must be at the same level in the tank.

The next option would be to do WCs as normal attaching a trickle tower somehow, but I can't find any designs online except for koi ponds (not exactly applicable to my application) and have no clue how to make one for an indoor aquarium.

The next option is to rely on surface agitation while filling the tank. But this seems so risky with such expensive fish!

I feel like I am really close to having to give up on the hobby. :(:(:(


How big is your tank ? So setting up a water barrel at your garage is not an option ?

[scuba guy]

There is really no guessing about this one. The bubbles on the glass, which are new, and the bubbles in the fish fins, tell the whole story. Aging the water is really the best way to go here, and it will have other benifits too. A degassing tower would help but invilves taking up room that could just as well be used to hold water for aging. Splashing/ spraying the water while filling would help too, but it's less sure than aging and can get messy. Once you get the water aging barrel/tank set up you'll see it's really no big thing.
You'll need a fauscet adapter to run a hose from your fauscet to your aging barrel. They sell them with the python extras at most online places like Foster and Smith.
In the mean time, do smaller wc's and let it splash into the tank as Kenny suggested. It's really an easy fix.

Kacey

Do you really believe that the excess gas (supersaturation) is killing his fish?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Do you really believe that the excess gas (supersaturation) is killing his fish?

I dont have to believe it....I can see it in the pictures. No amount of ammonia, chlorine, chloramines, etc, etc can produce those bubbles in the tank or in the fish. You'd be surprised how many farmers have these problems in the winter time with their water.

-Ryan

[diamond_discus]

Do you really believe that the excess gas (supersaturation) is killing his fish?

I have the exact problem two weeks ago, when I changed my WC routine and method, that I tried to fill water directly from faucet to the tank.... Luckily, I have bigger and tougher fishes in that tank ... Those fishes was very stress with bubbles on their skins and fins ... They have to shake the body heavily to get the bubbles off .. and I can see slime coat float to the top with those bubbles, not a very pleasant scene. Since that day, I swear I would never fill water directly from the faucet to the tank. I did lost one smaller fish .. not sure if that was the reason to kill it.

[kaceyo]

Do you really believe that the excess gas (supersaturation) is killing his fish?

No question about it!

Kacey

[scuba guy]

No question about it!

Kacey

Fair enough - when I add water - it travels first through a mechanical and carbon filter and then it goes into the overflow tower of my sump/trickle filter - heavy aeration and then through the trickle filter media before finally getting pumped back to the aquarium.

I guess the best thing Yasmin can do is fill a tub full of water and let it off-gas overnight (55 gallon blue tub) (and warm up)... measure the properties (especially Ph) and at least he will know.

Yasmin reports that ammonia is zero - tap and aquarium so that's not causing it and can be ruled out. We don't know know about Ph and whether he has natural buffers in his Michigan water.

[mkv]

I went to Walmart and got cheap plastic totes ( 40 gallons) 8.00 each. That way I have one being aged and one ready for my water changed so I always have water ready for daily WC's... They don't take that much space in the garage.

[TankWatcher]

Yas, is under your tank or inside the house your only option for storage. I have a 260G 2nd hand food safe container. I bought it on ebay. It sits in my garage, it's heated & inslulated and aerated. There's a pump with a hose long enough to reach into the fish room.

For me, this has made water changing so much quicker.

If you don't have room for something as big as mine, what about 1 or more of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/55-gallon-barrel-drum-food-grade-water-barrels_W0QQitemZ260545258802QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca9b52532

[Yassmeena]

Hi Folks,

Unfortunately I don't have room right now for an aging barrel, even the dimensions under my tank are too narrow to fit anything large enough to be of value.

I have an idea, unconventional, but to me it makes sense. Here's a sketch with a description underneath.


http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/yasminnagm/filter.jpg


The black box under the tank is the filter, and the one in the tank towards the top is my idea for a "trickle down" output directly from the filter.

The key is the lowered filter intake that would allow me to run water through the filter and thus run it through the "trickle down" assembly while I fill (python drawn in grey).

The trickle down assembly would be a miniversion, and the blue balls in the columns represent bio-balls for increased surface area and agitation. The assembly box I envision being some sort of plastic sectioned organizer with modifications, and custom made tubing to connect it to the fluval. Holes would be drilled for water to exit into the tank (that seems like the most experimental part so far, the diameter and number of holes). It would be black to camouflage into my black background, and so would the tubing.

So.... what do you think??? :o

Yasmin

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Or another idea is to just place the 5 gallon degassing tower bucket on top of the tank and let the water go through the degassing unit before entering the tank every time you do a water change. 5gal bucket filled with bioballs is light and relatively cheap to make (easy to put up/take down during every water change). Just drill 2-3 holes on the bottom to direct the water into the tank. It's better than nothing and depending on the level of super saturation it may fix your problem.

-Ryan

[joeGargas]

I normaly do not respond to forums but - I do not want to see anyone leave the hobby. I wish I could upload a .pdf file in this forum but I tried and can not do it. (this should be fixed) So I am going to give you a link here it is

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html

Go to the June 2009 of the Tampa Bay Aquarium Society Monthly Newsletter called the "FILTER"
Down load the June 09 in it there is an article I wrote on your exact problem that you are having.
Its starts on page 5 Nitrogen Embolism - it talks about the fix also.

I am sure this will help you

joeG
www.aquaresearchcenter.com

[Yassmeena]

I normaly do not respond to forums but - I do not want to see anyone leave the hobby. I wish I could upload a .pdf file in this forum but I tried and can not do it. (this should be fixed) So I am going to give you a link here it is

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html

Go to the June 2009 of the Tampa Bay Aquarium Society Monthly Newsletter called the "FILTER"
Down load the June 09 in it there is an article I wrote on your exact problem that you are having.
Its starts on page 5 Nitrogen Embolism - it talks about the fix also.

I am sure this will help you

joeG
www.aquaresearchcenter.com


Hi Joe,

Thanks for making an exception, and for sharing your concise and informative article!

In my case it would be temperature induced nitrogen embolism then.

Geeeeeeez!!!!!!!! I wish I could find a place to store an aging barrel! :(

[yim11]

Thanks for the link and post Joe, it's an honor to have you on the forum!

Yass, maybe you could hide a slim tank like below in a corner or closet? Just 20" diameter...55g, could do 2 water changes a day maybe? Even if the water only ages 6-8 hrs as Joes link mentions its better than nothing...

http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=218

HTHs and GL,
-jim

[diamond_discus]

Great article Joe. I think we can tag that article so it would benefit all others in the future.

I stored my water tonight in for 4 hrs but I forgot to turn on the air pump .. When I fill the water to the tank, there are still lots of bubbles on the sponge filter and the tank glass. I also see a few slime coat came off the top of the fins, and slowly rise up to the top. Luckily, those fishes are okay .. and the bubbles disappear very quickly. Whew ...

Yasmin, if adding a water barrel is not an option, then perhaps you need to reduce the stock in the tank ., and that would allow you to do less daily WC, perhaps 25% ? Just buy a few more 5 gallon buckets (from Home Depot, a few dollars each) to age your water a few hours .. then you don't have to change any settings. Just a thought.

[seanyuki]

I am thinking to get 400 gallons plastic container from plasticmart.com.....29 ins wide......and fit through tight door......worth the money:)

[Discus-Hans]

this is probably very simple it's what in the old days was called gas bubble disease, do a Google search on it and you will find tons of information.

It's not the bubbles you see on the fish, the problems are the smaller ones you don't see, aging your water is the only way to go.

What Kenny said some were in the beginning, keep your tube (if you fill direct from the tap) at least a 4 to 6" above the water line, let the water "fall" in your tank, it helps a little but is not always enough.

You never fill your tank straight from the tap, if you do and never lost fish, count yourself lucky because that's all what it is LUCK.

Hans

[scuba guy]

This is the main reason why some aquarists are “spinning their
wheels” – they see the above signs and symptoms thinking its ammonia
and or chlorine/chloramines without even testing the water and feel the
fix is adding more chemicals to the aquarium such as Prime, Stress
Coast, and Thiosulfate and or other water conditioners only to see losses
at the end. All of these conditioners are “reducing agents” meaning they
will remove or cancel out any oxidant including oxygen which is counter
productive during this condition at this time, as the fish need as much
oxygen as they can get. : (from Joe's June 09 article) (

Well.. I've learned something big today! Great article Joe! Thanks for sharing.

[Ed13]

Geeeeeeez!!!!!!!! I wish I could find a place to store an aging barrel! :(
Well, how much space do you have available? Where?

Have you thought about custom made to fit, acrylic or glass vessel? You may be able to fit it in weird places. I believe that as lilttle 20% of the tank's volume in aged water is worth looking into, unless you have lots of tanks. Two WC a day may be need it though.

[Harriett]

Yasmin,
I just read your thread and wanted to offer this: I have had, from time to time, a degree of oversaturation in filling my tanks [esp in the larger tanks where I am doing 100+ gallon water changes] directly from the tap because of the gassing pressure issue. I have nowhere to set up aging barrels and wanted to see if I could deal with the problem without them; I hooked up a 'garden wand' attachment for incoming water to my python--it disperses the water into a 'shower' that hits the water surface and breaks up the gas bubbles. I have found it to be quite effective [but loud] and keeps this problem under control--no bubbles in finnage, no damage to the discus. Perhaps my water is not as seriously gassed as yours, but I offer this tip as a possibility. I use a quick click attachment to take off the python tube and put on the water wand thing. I soak the wand in vinegar from time to time to melt any mineral depositis that would clog the teeny holes. Got it at home depot.
Best of luck,
Harriett

[Yassmeena]

So it looks like ultimately I will have to age my water. Until I figure out my aging system, I will do more frequent smaller water changes, allowing the water to splash in.

A quick question:

1. What's the best pump that everyone uses? And is it loud?

Thanks!!!

Yasmin

PS - My aging barrel will have to go next to my kitchen table. I guess my fam will just have to put up with it until we move to a bigger house over the summer.

PPS - Thanks for the link Jim. Looks great! Do you know if those are insulated at all to prevent heat loss?

[waters10]

Hey there!

I've been away from simply for a while and just starting to read the forum again.

Just read about your problems. It's interesting cause we live close by and I believe we have the same water supply. I used to age water for 24h before every change. Then I bought that discus from you and you told me that you were changing straight from the tap and you were not having problems. Well, after that, I stopped aging my water and started changing from tap! And I have been doing that since then ...

And I still don't have any problems. I don't usually change more than 40% of my water and I always fill up the tank really slow. It usally takes 1.5h-2h to fill 40% of my 85g tank. I always point the pvc pipe straight to the tank wall to minimize bubbles. But I still get them to the point that if I change around 50% or more, my sponge filter starts to float!

Now I did lose some adult discus recently, but they were all disease related. I didn't notice any strange thing happening after water changes. Either way, I'll keep a close eye on this thread to understand if there's something wrong with our water. And I'll post here if I notice any strange behavior lately.

Good Luck!

[diamond_discus]

So it looks like ultimately I will have to age my water. Until I figure out my aging system, I will do more frequent smaller water changes, allowing the water to splash in.

A quick question:

1. What's the best pump that everyone uses? And is it loud?

Thanks!!!

Yasmin

PS - My aging barrel will have to go next to my kitchen table. I guess my fam will just have to put up with it until we move to a bigger house over the summer.

PPS - Thanks for the link Jim. Looks great! Do you know if those are insulated at all to prevent heat loss?

I use the "Quiet One 2200" Submersible pump from Jehmco
http://www.jehmco.com/html/water_pumps___powerheads.html
I asked John to add a python adapter for a couple extra dollars.

[Finatic]

Just as an added side note, I tried re-filling my tank using a suggestion mentioned in this thread. I held the refill tube about 8-10 inches above the tank, and no noticeable gas bubbles were in the tank after filling.

It would seem that this does indeed work, I just dont know if it would work for you Yas since you have such a problem that it kills your fish.

[Yassmeena]

Just as an added side note, I tried re-filling my tank using a suggestion mentioned in this thread. I held the refill tube about 8-10 inches above the tank, and no noticeable gas bubbles were in the tank after filling.

It would seem that this does indeed work, I just dont know if it would work for you Yas since you have such a problem that it kills your fish.

Thanks Finatic,

I have been doing this now as well, for 30% WCs. This is my new routine until I set up my aging system.

The fish are responding pretty well... they are considerably less stressed during WCs, although not totally stress free. The tank is not totally bubble free either, but there are fewer bubbles and they clear up faster.

Hopefully this thread will help someone someday. I think this is problem is encountered commonly enough, and often leaves the aquariast baffled, as it did me!!!!!

Thanks again, and best!

Yasmin

[GlennR]

I'm not recommending it, but just wondering what effect an RO filter would have on the over saturated water? Also I was thinking that a vacuum pump would remove the gas, but you'd need a sealed container to pull a vacuum in.

just thinking.....

[Yassmeena]

I'm not recommending it, but just wondering what effect an RO filter would have on the over saturated water? Also I was thinking that a vacuum pump would remove the gas, but you'd need a sealed container to pull a vacuum in.

just thinking.....

Hi Glenn,

Thanks. When examining filters I thought more along the line of wet/dry because they have the very property of degassing water!

However, I don't think anything will give me as much security as setting up an effective aging system. I am just worried that my family is going to hate me for it... :o They'll be fine though - they love me! :D:D

Yasmin

[scuba guy]

So...Yasmin ....

Are you going to stay in the hobby?

[Tito]

Here's my advice.

You have two options.

Stop keeping Discus - as I definitely believe your water is harmful for whatever reason. OR.....

Do minimal water changes. Try 10% or 20% - see how your fish behave. Feed less. That sucks for growing out but you have NO choice. Maybe do 10% twice a week.

One thing is for sure - you should be convinced by now that 90% water change is lethal to your fish. I know there are many ideas offered but I understand you may not be up for all that or you may just be too busy - and I understand that because you have a real life and you are just trying to enjoy and fit in some small fish into a little tank. Even my 125 gallon tank is a little tank. Fish belong in rivers, lakes and the sea. LOL

So I think I offer a good plan - very small water changes very small feeding. About the best you could do in your situation.

Edit: The reason why I can say stop keeping Discus is because I've been down a similar road. I tried keeping salt water fish with tap water (of course I added the salt LOL) but my tap was not suitable. I did the RO thing - wasn’t going to do it this time thank you LOL. Some people get away with their tap mixed with salt but I wasn’t lucky. Perhaps my tap is a bit different. So I stopped keeping salt. I just couldn’t see myself killing fish and even more importantly - wasting money - I'm a family man with kids to feed. Time is of the essence but so is money.

[BAM]

Sorry to hear about your water problem. Lead in the water could well be your problem. I had a similar issue when I first started to keep discus. Buried in Untergasser's book are only a few sentences about heavy metals. Untergasser relates how sensitive discus are to lead and other heavy metals, and how the use of lead bands to weigh down plants, or lead sinkers to hold down driftwood release a very tiny amount of lead into the water, especially if your water pH is below 7.0 (neutral). In my case, I was using lead fishing sinkers to hold down a piece of driftwood. My water comes from a well at a pH of about 5.0 due to disolved CO2, rises to 6.0 overnight and more slowly to about 7.0 as the last of the CO2 leaves the water. I have always aged my water, but it always was below 7.0, ussually in the low to mid 6.'s. My discus would hide, jump, or swim in a panic arround the tank and knock themselves out cold swimming into the glass. My first batch of discus did not thrive. I thought it was the water, so I got a RO unit and add RO Right to it, but there was no change. I got Untergasser's book for Chrismas in 2008, found the sentence about lead, removed the sinkers, and all has been well since.

Good luck.

BAM

[waters10]

Just one update.

I changed around 50-60% yesterday and this morning, my discus were fine and eating some freeze dried blackworms. So, assuming we have the same water, I don't think our tap water is necessarily bad.

This time, I set my pvc pipe higher up, so the water was dropping from around 2-3" above the tank and I noticed less bubbles than usual. But this is the first time I did this, based on some recommendations on this thread.

Just wanted to say that at least for me, water seems to be ok.

[Yassmeena]

Just one update.

I changed around 50-60% yesterday and this morning, my discus were fine and eating some freeze dried blackworms. So, assuming we have the same water, I don't think our tap water is necessarily bad.

This time, I set my pvc pipe higher up, so the water was dropping from around 2-3" above the tank and I noticed less bubbles than usual. But this is the first time I did this, based on some recommendations on this thread.

Just wanted to say that at least for me, water seems to be ok.

That is SO odd! I changed 25% yesterday in my 72gallon and man were there bubbles all over the place!!! I turned off my filter and ran the air stone for 1/2 hour before turning it back on. That helped alot!

I also filled with the python raised above the tank. Kind a pain to hold it up for those last few gallons when I can no longer accomplish the height by supporting the python under the lid!

But my aging system is in the works...... :D

[Eddie]

Yas, the python hose fits this attachment perfectly. It suctions to the outside wall of the tank and hangs over the inside. Water free falls down and creates a ton of water movement, slightly gassing off excess gas. I have been using these for 6-7 years.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198991/product.web


Eddie

[Darrell Ward]

I have a well. I have never aged one drop of water in over 20 years. It goes from the faucet (hot/cold mix) straight to the tank through a water hose. It has never been a problem. Granted, I don't have huge water pressures one may have on a public water tap, but it has never killed a fish, and I've had all kinds. Aros, peacock bass, many types of catfish, as well as a couple hundred discus during this time. I get tired of fish after a while and trade or sell them, and get something different. Anyway, if it were me, and I had a questionable water supply, I would get an RO unit asap, and quit playing around with it. Fish cost too much these days to lose. My 2 cents. :D

[Doctorgori]

Hello...I'm mostly a troll here, but can totally relate to this water issue...and BTW forgive me if I'm repeating a previous reply as I didn't read ever last reply...but...

from those pics (bubbles in the fins esp.), thats a classic case of what I call the "bends"...a gas issue with the water...no doubt about it...

I've dealt with this a few times, most recently at a place that was "at the end of the line" so to speak of the water mains...

I can only offer: do as suggested: let the water sit and the gas stabilize...OR, review your hot/cold ratio when filling your tanks (yup, sounds counter intuitive,but you can actually screw thing up with using water too warm also)...

As for water conditioners...I'm not sure how that discussion leads to a cure of a obvious gas imbalance issue :confused: ....anyway, back to trolling

[Yassmeena]

Yas, the python hose fits this attachment perfectly. It suctions to the outside wall of the tank and hangs over the inside. Water free falls down and creates a ton of water movement, slightly gassing off excess gas. I have been using these for 6-7 years.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198991/product.web


Eddie
Eddie! That's awesome!!!! I was wondering how I can make something like that out of home depot fittings, but now no need! Thanx!!! :D:D:D


I have a well. I have never aged one drop of water in over 20 years. It goes from the faucet (hot/cold mix) straight to the tank through a water hose. It has never been a problem. Granted, I don't have huge water pressures one may have on a public water tap, but it has never killed a fish, and I've had all kinds. Aros, peacock bass, many types of catfish, as well as a couple hundred discus during this time. I get tired of fish after a while and trade or sell them, and get something different. Anyway, if it were me, and I had a questionable water supply, I would get an RO unit asap, and quit playing around with it. Fish cost too much these days to lose. My 2 cents. :D

I agree - they are too expensive to lose! I am going to age, since I have read mixed reviews about RO as a solution to degassing problems...


Hello...I'm mostly a troll here, but can totally relate to this water issue...and BTW forgive me if I'm repeating a previous reply as I didn't read ever last reply...but...

from those pics (bubbles in the fins esp.), thats a classic case of what I call the "bends"...a gas issue with the water...no doubt about it...

I've dealt with this a few times, most recently at a place that was "at the end of the line" so to speak of the water mains...

I can only offer: do as suggested: let the water sit and the gas stabilize...OR, review your hot/cold ratio when filling your tanks (yup, sounds counter intuitive,but you can actually screw thing up with using water too warm also)...

As for water conditioners...I'm not sure how that discussion leads to a cure of a obvious gas imbalance issue :confused: ....anyway, back to trolling

Thanks for your reply! I'm going to start aging to correct this. Can't wait till this is all behind me!

Thanks everyone!

Yasmin

PS - I'll be posting pics soon of my aging barrel (decoratively painted by moi). :)

[waters10]

Yas, the python hose fits this attachment perfectly. It suctions to the outside wall of the tank and hangs over the inside. Water free falls down and creates a ton of water movement, slightly gassing off excess gas. I have been using these for 6-7 years.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198991/product.web


Eddie
That's a nice attachment.

You can also use one of this from jehmco: http://www.jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html

The cool thing about this, is that you can swing the arm and set at what level you want to remove the tank. I have one of this attached to a python in one side. The other side I attach a small flexible tube to clean the bottom. When I'm done cleaning the bottom, I remove the flexible tube. Then I adjust the arm to whatever level I want and go do something else.

[diamond_discus]

Yasmin:
Here're some photos I took during my WC last night. The first set is a 40 gallon tank I have in my dinner room. I use a 60 ft python to pump water from my garage water barrel (tap water aged for 5 hrs). I just use a glass top to hold the python hose at the top. There is no bubble build-up. No stress on the fish and they are ready to eat their frozen blood worm treat after each WC.

[diamond_discus]

Here're WC pictures for another 40G tank at the other side of my dinner room.
You will see that the water flow is slower then my garage WC pictures (see later post). That's why I recommend using the 3000 instead of the 2200 Quiet pump.

[diamond_discus]

Here're some WC pictures to a 90G tank in my garage .. still using that python hose, but I disconnect the 40' extension hose, just a 20' hose to the pump. You can see that the water flow is much strong .. filling time is much shorter.
I use a small hook in my wood rack to hold the python hose.

[diamond_discus]

And finally, some equipment pictures .. I use a remote controlled AC outlet for my dinner room tank WCs. I also use a WC device from Jehmco to drain out water from a tank that is low on my fish rack. Hope these pictures help clarify my PMs.

These might not be the ideal setup .. but I am not an expert in plumbing ..I just try to find ways that would work easy for me.

[nikond70s]

i havent read everything everyone posted so what i say now might have been said already by someone else so sorry for that.

but i\ve gone thru what you gone thru before yas and lost a bunch of fish after a waterchange. and i believed it was due to the nasty water here in socal.

but heres what i do now:

i suck out the water using my garden hose. then when i fill in the water. i also use my garden hose. i dont age my water. but i think the trick is to turn on the water slowly. like very very low. this do take long tho about 1-2 hours depending on the size of your tank. while the water is slowly filling up. i would add water conditioner...i add a bit then repeat it every 20-30mins or so. and sometimes i would add a lil hot water so the water doesnt get too cold. from my experience turning on the water too high and too fast it toxics the water when coming straight from tap. cuz cali's water is nasty. by filling with tap water very very slowly. the beneficial bacterias have time to fight off the tap water and clean it,if that makes sense. filling all at once and too fast the new tap water will overcome the old water. by fillnig it very very slowly the discus can slowly adapt to the new water rather than everything at once it'll be too fast and can caused shocks.

-so take water out
-slowly add water back in..i mean very very slowly
-put water conditioner then repeat every 20-30mins
-add some hot water if it gets too cold
-go watch tv or do something cuz it will take a LONG time to refill

this way is very long but in my opinion worth it. and to me its been safe. never had a problem.

[Yassmeena]

And finally, some equipment pictures .. I use a remote controlled AC outlet for my dinner room tank WCs. I also use a WC device from Jehmco to drain out water from a tank that is low on my fish rack. Hope these pictures help clarify my PMs.

These might not be the ideal setup .. but I am not an expert in plumbing ..I just try to find ways that would work easy for me.

Hi Larry,

Your setup looks like it works very well for you, and is similar to what I would like to setup. It's a little extra work than changing right from the tap, but it's definately worth it! :)

Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. It was indeed very helpful, and allowed me to visualized what I'd been only imagining. :)


i havent read everything everyone posted so what i say now might have been said already by someone else so sorry for that.

but i\ve gone thru what you gone thru before yas and lost a bunch of fish after a waterchange. and i believed it was due to the nasty water here in socal.

but heres what i do now:

i suck out the water using my garden hose. then when i fill in the water. i also use my garden hose. i dont age my water. but i think the trick is to turn on the water slowly. like very very low. this do take long tho about 1-2 hours depending on the size of your tank. while the water is slowly filling up. i would add water conditioner...i add a bit then repeat it every 20-30mins or so. and sometimes i would add a lil hot water so the water doesnt get too cold. from my experience turning on the water too high and too fast it toxics the water when coming straight from tap. cuz cali's water is nasty. by filling with tap water very very slowly. the beneficial bacterias have time to fight off the tap water and clean it,if that makes sense. filling all at once and too fast the new tap water will overcome the old water. by fillnig it very very slowly the discus can slowly adapt to the new water rather than everything at once it'll be too fast and can caused shocks.

-so take water out
-slowly add water back in..i mean very very slowly
-put water conditioner then repeat every 20-30mins
-add some hot water if it gets too cold
-go watch tv or do something cuz it will take a LONG time to refill

this way is very long but in my opinion worth it. and to me its been safe. never had a problem.

Hey nikon,

Thanks for that advice. You're not the first one to mention filling more slowly. I decided to set up an aging barrel though, just to be extra safe. :)

Best,

Yasmin

[nikond70s]

glad your not quitting this beautiful hobby

[Doctorgori]

Hi Larry,

Your setup looks like it works very well for you, and is similar to what I would like to setup. It's a little extra work than changing right from the tap, but it's definately worth it! :)

Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. It was indeed very helpful, and allowed me to visualized what I'd been only imagining. :)



Hey nikon,

Thanks for that advice. You're not the first one to mention filling more slowly. I decided to set up an aging barrel though, just to be extra safe. :)

Best,

Yasmin
Again, just following this thread and mostly trolling, but....
I would add a lil caution(from direct experience) in adding HOT water to your makeup water....
so without going into boring detail, hypothetically speaking there are several ways to achieve 85F water from tap:
using "X" percentage of VERY hot water and some cold...OR
using "X" percentage of "lukewarm" water "pre-mixed" at the tap ...
Again, this sounds illogical (since you are thinking "whats the difference?"), but the two types of water mixtures are VERY different with regards to gas composition (usually nitrogen)...and hot water tends to be nitrogen depleted, thus if you mix your makeup water with a percentage of water that is too hot, you can actually end up with nitrogen depleted water;.... and those "bubbles" in the fins is a sure sign of that (and not toxins, per se)....

another possibility is a issue with the water main:...I've actualy had HUGE fish losses following water changes from the tap (almost hundreds in total): I used regular hypo type de-chlors and ammonia based de-chlor...also tried heavy metal removers....but after explaining to the muny water engineer the horrendous losses, they came out and tested: the conclusion was gas imbalances due to being at the end of a water main...I applologise for the poor explaination as my limited intelligence only comprehends it so much, but the problem isn't always under-saturation, but could be "over-saturation"...
Correction/edit, I said that backwards....(see "Gas bubble disease")

....anymore I use "simple" & cheap hypo type dechlors, make sure my water tank is set at 160F< and ...I'd also add an aerator on my faucet

Hope that helps a lil

[ILuvTropicalFish]

Thanks Finatic,

I have been doing this now as well, for 30% WCs. This is my new routine until I set up my aging system.

The fish are responding pretty well... they are considerably less stressed during WCs, although not totally stress free. The tank is not totally bubble free either, but there are fewer bubbles and they clear up faster.

Hopefully this thread will help someone someday. I think this is problem is encountered commonly enough, and often leaves the aquariast baffled, as it did me!!!!!

Thanks again, and best!

Yasmin

Yasmin,
This thread HAS helped others...ME. I had the bubbles and have not had any ill affects from them, but had no idea they could cause a problem. Now I am holding the tube above the water too just to be sure I don't have a problem.

This thread has been fascinating! I am sorry you have had this frustration, but am thankful you have shared it.

[Spardas]

Hey nikon,

Thanks for that advice. You're not the first one to mention filling more slowly. I decided to set up an aging barrel though, just to be extra safe. :)

Best,

Yasmin

Good choice and glad to see you sticking around. I can't wait to see the artistic work on the barrel. :D

[nc0gnet0]

Yas,

You say you use water out of the tap.....do you by chance have a water-softener? If so any recent changes in the brand of salt you use? This probably is not the issue, but, it hasn't been asked yet so I thought I would.

You dont have room for a water storage barrel? Don't you have a basement? I am assuming you do water changes from the kitchen faucet, as you mentioned storing a water container next to it. Plumbing a pvc line up threw the basement from a 55 gallon plastic drum is a really simple process (its what I did) and not costly at all. I use a drinking water safe sump in the barrel with a washing machine hose. I connect the other end of the washing machine hose to the pvc pipe. I ran the pvc pipe up threw the floor where the drain from the kitchen sink goes threw the floor. I then installed a pvc shutoff valve (optional) and another garden hose fitting to the end of the pipe. When I do water changes I simply hook up the garden hose to the pipe under the sink and run it to the tank. It sounds alot more complicated than it is, the whole process only took a few hours and cost less then the price of two discus.


I must concur with another on this thread though, that if you simply don't have the time, you might want to try a different species of fish, as I truly believe that we owe are finned freinds the best chance possible to thrive, as they are just not decorations but living creatures.

One last thing, a spray bar is also a very effective de-gassing aperatus and quite easy to make.

[simpleton]

Yasmin, Wow, I bet your head is spinning with all this information. First off, does your local water come from Lake Michigan? If so, your at 135 PPMs with a PH of around 8 to 8.5. Folloing, is my system when I had 22 tanks and nine breeding pairs with tanks of babies.

My "storage" tanks were three 55 gallon "blue" plasic barrels from a local dairy which originally contained renit? which is a natural acid used in the cheese production process (I think)

I used RO water with 10" x 15" bags of peat moss in each barrel. I had a power head and heater in each barrel and a Rio 2100 pump in one to fill tanks after water changes which were done at about 15 to 20% EVERY third day! when cleaning out the tank bottoms. Once every two weeks, I scraped down the side prior to the clean out.

I had a 1-1/4" hose from barrel to barrel so it was only necessary to fill and drain from the end barrel.

I reduced my PH by using straight Sulfuric Acid (13 drops to 55 gallons of water). I brought the PPM up to 60 on the storage water using Marc Weiss' RO right. I can no longer find it so I use Sea Salt, 1/2 teaspoon to 55 gallons.

I had sump filters connecting several banks of tanks. Doing a water change directly from the tap just was never even considered!!!

This is a bit of a hassle to set up, but once done really simplifies Discus keeping.

Russ

[nc0gnet0]

Why would you use peat moss on RO water? Doesn't make any sense to me.......RO Water should be neutral to slightly acidic, with 0-2 ppm TDS. Discus buffer and neutralizer should be all you need (or even add back some untreated tap). I don't like using salt, although I know others do, as I feel it should be treated as a medication.

Also living over near Detroit, I doubt her water comes from Lake Micigan....maybe Lake Erie...

[simpleton]

Why would you use peat??? Amazon river! Lake Erie is also a "surface" water lake. Probably mimics lake Michigan. Read up on the "Masters" of Discus and to the man, they will interject peat into the process.

It worked for me and I had NO desease's in 12 years of breeding.

What ever works for some one who has "consistant" success breeding Discus, they should definetely continue doing that! regardless of what others are!