Small multiple or Single large water change???

[maximus]

Which one do you prefer...
small multiple water change or single large water change??

I plan to start upon a discus tank where I can either go with say 40% water change twice a day (one after morning food ) and 1 after dinner.. or 80% water change once in a day after dinner...???Which one of these are more preferrable for growing juveniles of 1 inch size..

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

The ideal scenario is smaller multiple water changes compared to a large single water change. Mostly due to the fact of less stress, more stable conditions, etc, etc.

-Ryan

[Keith Perkins]

Two smaller WC's a day will have your fish in cleaner water for more time than a single large one. I would think your fish would love 40% twice a day, I'm sure mine would.

[Eddie]

Different strokes for different folks. I prefer one large (90% or greater), every day but as Ryan mentioned, you have to have the water for it. Andrew Soh's first book, page 44, it was mentioned that ideally, the entire volume of tank water, should be replaced 4 times in a 24 hours period and 3 times was merely acceptable. Now, thats alot and he didn't say filtered, he said replaced. How do you like them apples! And this all depends on the tank inhabitants, like juveniles or fry.


Eddie

[Scribbles]

If you can do 2 wc a day then I would make both of them as large as possible, provided that the water added has the same parameters as the water in the tank.

Chris

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

I WISH I could pull 2 big ones a day....im lucky if I can get 1 nice one a day. lately its been every other day. I think I need to step it up!

[Don Trinko]

There is an article in TFH magazene. It's conclusion is large WC is better than 2 small. Example; When you do your 2nd 40% wc you are also changing some of the water that you just changed earlier. When you do a 80% WC for sure only 20% of the water is "old" water". Don T.

[scottthomas]

There is an article in TFH magazene. It's conclusion is large WC is better than 2 small. Example; When you do your 2nd 40% wc you are also changing some of the water that you just changed earlier. When you do a 80% WC for sure only 20% of the water is "old" water". Don T.

Excellent point

[Kingdom Come Discus]

I like the larger water changes too, as long as the temp and ph of the tank are very very close to the water used for the change. I recommend checking the water before each change and if for instance there is a small difference in the water parameters make smaller changes based on how different the parameters are.

[Eddie]

There is an article in TFH magazene. It's conclusion is large WC is better than 2 small. Example; When you do your 2nd 40% wc you are also changing some of the water that you just changed earlier. When you do a 80% WC for sure only 20% of the water is "old" water". Don T.

As Scott mentioned, excellent point!


Eddie

[Keith Perkins]

There is an article in TFH magazene. It's conclusion is large WC is better than 2 small. Example; When you do your 2nd 40% wc you are also changing some of the water that you just changed earlier. When you do a 80% WC for sure only 20% of the water is "old" water". Don T.

That makes good sense, but I think I'd still like to pull out another 5 gallons at the other time to get rid of any left over food and feces that had been dropped in the past 8 to 12 hours.

[maximus]

Thanks a lot friends for so quick replies...Well I think I would go with Don's idea of doing large massive water changes than small multiple ones...thanks a lot guys..

[Scribbles]

There is an article in TFH magazene. It's conclusion is large WC is better than 2 small. Example; When you do your 2nd 40% wc you are also changing some of the water that you just changed earlier. When you do a 80% WC for sure only 20% of the water is "old" water". Don T.

Good point!

Chris

[Don Trinko]

My concern has always been the possability of something wrong with the water for WC and the drastic change on the fish but I know many do near 100% WC and if anything the fish like it. So..... As long as your water is good larger is better.
I would also agree that just a few gallons to syphon out excess food is good in that it helps keep the water cleaner. All IMO; Don T.

[Condor]

Different strokes for different folks. I prefer one large (90% or greater), every day but as Ryan mentioned, you have to have the water for it. Andrew Soh's first book, page 44, it was mentioned that ideally, the entire volume of tank water, should be replaced 4 times in a 24 hours period and 3 times was merely acceptable. Now, thats alot and he didn't say filtered, he said replaced. How do you like them apples! And this all depends on the tank inhabitants, like juveniles or fry.


Eddie

Eddie, did Andrews book mention why 3-4 100% water changes were needed? And did it give comparisons as to how fish with that type of regimen compared to fish with say 1 or 2 100% water changes? I am just curious as to the reasoning behind such large amounts of water (Were studies done where that much water was actually changed?).

With 1 75 gallon tank, 4 water changes a day is 300 gallons a day. Multiply that by 30 days in a month, and your talking 9,000 gallons of water. Now lets say you have 10 tanks. Thats 90,000 gallons of water a month. And say a hatchery with 40 tanks? 360,000 gallons a month. Thats one heck of a water bill.:D

Adrian

[Spardas]

Please visit the link below:

http://discusguide.com/massive-discus-growth/

I also believe that with more large water changes and higher frequency given that everything else is constant will lead to more robust growth and better health in discus.

Personally, I can only do about 80% x2 daily.

[hedut]

I uselly do 25% to 100% dailly depend on the tank :D:D

[Alok]

Well, a little bit of maths may help us. Let us say the group of discus puts out 100 mg (or gm or whatever units) of waste in 24 hrs.

Scenario 1: water changes 40% twice a day.
After day 1, 1st 40% water change means remaining waste = 60mg
By the 2nd water change in the evening 12 hrs later, discus has added 50mg more waste, a 40% water change again will mean 66mg waste remaining.
Day 2 1st water change means 69.6mg waste remaining and after 2nd water change means 71.76 mg waste remaining.
Similarly, day 3 water changes means 73.1 and 73.8mg remaining, day 4 water changes means 74.3 and 74.6 mg remaining and after day 5, 2 water changes mean 74.75 and 74.85 mg remaining. Continuing this twice daily water changes, the value will not change much from 75mg remining. This is steady state concentration.

Scenario 2: water changes 80% once a day.
After day 1, waste remaining = 20mg
Day 2: waste remaining = 24 mg
Day 3: waste remaining = 24.8 mg
Day 4: waste remaining = 24.96 mg
Day 5: waste remaining = 24.99 mg
Thus, continuing once daily 80% change, the value will not change more than 25mg. This is the steady state concentration for scenario 2.

Thus, this means that by doing 80% single water change as opposed to 40% change twice a day, you are reducing the steady state concentration of waste by one third (75mg vs. 25mg). This would be a huge benefit! I am myself surprised by this answer, but the numbers speak for themselves. However, the water parameters during water change must be the same, or it will do more damage than good.

Thanks for your patience :)

[mjs020294]

If you have sufficient filtration and/or plants why do you need to remove so much waste with water changes? We have never had a nitrate reading above 20ppm, and it is under 10 ppm most of the time. That is is slightly over stocked tanks on limited water changes.

Why do Discus need so many more water changes? Sorry if that is a stupid question, I am new to Disucs.

[Spardas]

If you have sufficient filtration and/or plants why do you need to remove so much waste with water changes?

Taken from the link I posted:

"What’s In The Water
How can water contribute to explosive Discus growth? What exactly is in the water, or more importantly what exactly was removed? The obvious answer is waste and uneaten food was removed and fresh oxygen rich water was consistently introduced.

Many believe that tank size alone will produce larger Discus, but when I listened to Mr. Wattley share his discoveries it simply made all the sense in the world. Quality of life and pristine conditions enabled the Discus to grow to their fullest potential without debilitating toxins and bacteria that would stunt development and growth.

It is the same reason professional athletes feed themselves the purist of foods, vitamins and supplements. Along with training they also make sure to get plenty of sleep and avoid toxins to the system like drugs, smoking or alcohol. Some athletes go as far as moving to the country side while training in order to remove themselves from the stress of city life and allow for full focus and recovery from training.

Beneficial Side Effects
Now of course changing water seven to eight times a day at 90% rates is a bit extreme, but if we look at what that benefits this allows it is really eye opening.

With more water changes Discus are allowed to eat more often and as much as they please. No excess food accumulates to create ammonia spikes or other harmful side effects. By consuming more proteins and nutrients the Discus can feed the teenager like appetite that growth spurts demand.

With more frequency also comes the opportunity for more variety and thus more nutrients and proteins for growth. Its a beneficial cycle that is geared for optimal health and growth."

[mjs020294]

I have a 90g planted with 5 (maybe eventually 8) discus and a few other fish. I can manage a 25% water change each day but anything more than that will be really difficult. Getting the back up water the right quality/temperature and finding time to do the change present a problem with more that 25% a day.

We have sufficient filtration with a 540gph canister, and a 400gph external bio-wheel filter. I just hope the tank and fish stay healthy with a 25% a day WC.

[Condor]

Please visit the link below:

http://discusguide.com/massive-discus-growth/

I also believe that with more large water changes and higher frequency given that everything else is constant will lead to more robust growth and better health in discus.

Personally, I can only do about 80% x2 daily.

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff. I think it would be interesting to have an experiment like that done here on SD.

Adrian

[Spardas]

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx188/Spardas/Random%20Pics/th_Yuck.jpg (http://s754.photobucket.com/albums/xx188/Spardas/Random%20Pics/?action=view&current=Yuck.jpg)

Okay, so I took some very fine white filter floss and wrapped them around the intake of my 3 filtration units on the 55 gallon with 6 discus and this is what I got after 5 days and about 20 hours.

I do two 80% water changes daily.

My feeding regiment are 2 main meals and 6 flake/pellet/freeze dried mix that's in 2 auto feeders. So, it's a total of 8 feedings.

The first main feeding is beefheart/seafood mix, forumla 1 & 2 flake, cyclop-eeze flake, teta colorbits, and a few cubes of mals black worm. I do the 80% water change right after this. I also do the second 80% water change right after the second main meal at night.

So, even with 2 80% water changes daily and good management, you can see what's really in the water. Now you know why the more water changes, the better. :D:D:D

[mjs020294]

Our Discus are juveniles and they definitely seem to be doing well on 30% WC each day. The tank is under stocked, and fairly heavily planted but you can see the difference in their color and behavior when the fresh water goes in. We have plenty of bottom feeders and cleaning fish so I doubt I will ever increase the WC above 30%

[Don Trinko]

There will always be "stuff" in the water. If you feed them they will poop, If they breath they will produce ammonia.
If you have ever seen underwater pictures of the Amazon you will see a lot more "stuff" than you will ever find in my tanks. Some "stuff" is harmfull and some "stuff" is not. IMO; "stuff" you do not see that is disolved in the water is more likely to be harmfull so...... The age old difference of OPINION on WC routine continues untill someone does a scientific study to determine specificaly what "stuff" is harmfull. All IMO; Don T.

[mjs020294]

There will always be "stuff" in the water. If you feed them they will poop, If they breath they will produce ammonia.
If you have ever seen underwater pictures of the Amazon you will see a lot more "stuff" than you will ever find in my tanks. Some "stuff" is harmfull and some "stuff" is not. IMO; "stuff" you do not see that is disolved in the water is more likely to be harmfull so...... The age old difference of OPINION on WC routine continues untill someone does a scientific study to determine specificaly what "stuff" is harmfull. All IMO; Don T.

If you just have Discus then WC become very important. Bottom feeders and plants will take care of a fair amount of the waste and spare food. We have lots of plants, bottom feeders, shrimp, and good filtration. Even when I disturb the substrate its pretty clean. The PH is totally stable and we have never had any ammonia or nitrate issues.

[SHAD0W]

Is American water different to British water? The LFS said some people do 10% water changes twice a week with city water thats streight from the mains here? Back when I first started fishkeeping I used to do 80% water change on my tanks every 6 weeks? Sometimes every couple of months and my fish haven't had an illness yet?

[Don Trinko]

It's hard to get agrement on specific routines. Part of this is because we have different situations. Someone raising fry needs more WC. Someone with young discus or overcrowding ( no one does this do they?) requires more wc. A light bioload with adult discus and light feeding reqires less. Plants and scavengers do help remove excess food but can remove food that the discus would eat. (agressive eaters like some other ciclids) Some are trying to raise trophy discus but many are just hoping to raise healthy , pretty discus.
All IMO; Don T.

[mjs020294]

[
Okay, so I took some very fine white filter floss and wrapped them around the intake of my 3 filtration units on the 55 gallon with 6 discus and this is what I got after 5 days and about 20 hours.

So, even with 2 80% water changes daily and good management, you can see what's really in the water. Now you know why the more water changes, the better. :D:D:D

All that shows is what is in YOUR water pre-filter. In a well balanced tank with good filtration and a complete bio-system including plants some of the stuff in the water is required, and good. If your intakes have excessive food being drawn in it could be an indication of over feeding. If it is removing waste, it most likely gets processed by the filter and relatively clean water is returned to the tank.

In our tank hardly any food reaches the substrate, and the small amount that does is eaten by the bottom feeders. Anything that remains in the substrate or passes through the filters is most likely being consumed by the plants.

[spyder329]

Please visit the link below:

http://discusguide.com/massive-discus-growth/

I also believe that with more large water changes and higher frequency given that everything else is constant will lead to more robust growth and better health in discus.

Personally, I can only do about 80% x2 daily.

That is some great reading.. I guess I will start doing my water changes everyday instead of every other day.

[mjs020294]

Is American water different to British water? The LFS said some people do 10% water changes twice a week with city water that is straight from the mains here?

I am British, now living in Florida. The water here definitely has a little more chlorine in than back home, you can even taste it. The hardness will vary by region just like it does in the UK. I know we used to aged water overnight when we had aquariums in the UK.

You can add water straight from the supply by using an additive like Prime.