Altums as tankmakes for wild discus

[damian_ireland]

Anyone have experience of keeping Altums with wilds . Is it a good idea ?

[gotfish?]

you know in the wild they actually school together. but you'll be burn at the steak if you say your mixing discus with something else in this site ha ha im just kidding :D but things you have to consider: it doesn't matter how big your tank is, the amazon river or whatever river these fish came from cant be downsized by any size glass barrier(tank). in the wild they mix with as many different species they want(for security, finding food, etc) and they can easily swim away if aggression or why-not ever happen which cant be really done in a fish tank environment.

a good example that a lot of angelfish keepers have probably experienced is when you keep angels in a "community setting", then a breeding pair forms and murder every single fish that tries to come near their territory( and those greedy lovers almost always occupy 1/3 of the tank space). while the pair are busy "getting it on" the rest of the "community" on the 2/3 side of your tank are trying to figure how to deal with the ram digging holes for his potential lova, discus fighting over pecking order, tetras being scared as ever and plecos...sucking? ha ha i think you get my point(or not)

IMO :D

PS i love how you can say anything you want as long as you use the "IMO" after your peace to play things safe (its a mandatory if you don't want yo get crucified) :D :antlers:

[Kevin22]

I disagree. first of all, as far as I know, Discus are in Amazon, while Altums are in Orinoco. they don't live together in wild. they have different requirment in terms of water movement. both very sensitive fish, different feeding habit. it's a lot more difficult to keep them together healthy, even though it's tough enough to keep them alone. unless you are so experienced with both, know what you are doing, don't do it. I have both, in different tanks, by all means, I wouldn't do it myself

[nikond70s]

shouldnt be a problem. i keep altums with my discus. my altums actually schools with the discus. no aggression fighting what so ever. both are adult size.

[William Palumbo]

I have kept Altums with my Discus in the past with no problems. The Altums really do well and benefit from the frequent waterchanges, and feedings that I give my Discus. They grow HUGE once eating a good BH mix...Bill

[Apistomaster]

As William rightly pointed out you can keep wild Discus with Altums.
I prefer not to because they are never found together in nature coming from entirely separate major drainage systems; Altums from Orinoco tributaries and Discus from Amazonia.
The normal degradation of the peace one experiences with P. scalare and to a lessor extent, P leopoldi does eventually become very disruptive.
However, Altums are much like Heckel Discus in that there have only been a mere handful of accounts of true Altums breeding in captivity.

I encourage keeping Altums and Discus in their own tanks. Altums are able to grow to very large sizes and you will need every bit of avaiable space to give the Altums enough room to realize the full potential. You will see more subtle aspects of Altum behavior when they are the center piece of their tank and they also do best in water so soft and acid,no measurable hardness and a pH as low as 3.5 that only the most peaceful wild Discus, S. discus Heckel are truly adapted for life in these conditions. But Heckels lack the assertiveness that comes in handy when it comes to a balance of power.
Altums can be hard enough to keep healthy without complicating it by including Discus.
That said, a very skilled fish keeper can find a way to keep them together; people like William for example.

I am kept pretty up to date on all things Altum as one of the moderators of www.finarama.com. Most of those who keep Altums have previous experience keeping an breedig wild Discus but only a few keep them together. Those few who do, use domestic Discus as dither fish to keep with young Altums during their growing out phase but eventually keep them separately/

[brewmaster15]

When I had altums I kept them with my heckels... They did fine together...but I eventually separated them for mostly for aesthetic reasons...

Just way to many bars and patterns in that tank!!!:).. I would prefer them separate if I should keep them again...or with a solid bodied fish...definetly never heckels again.

-al

[damian_ireland]

thanks for the replies folks. After seeing the Altums that were available I wont be going down that road anyway. guess it will be the standard , cardinal + rummy combo

[Kevin22]

glad you decide not to mix, you'll appricaite it later. for tetras, you might want something bigger, Rummy nose may have a chance, cardinals are more like food to Altums rather than tankmate.


thanks for the replies folks. After seeing the Altums that were available I wont be going down that road anyway. guess it will be the standard , cardinal + rummy combo

[Apistomaster]

For the past serveral years importers and their end customers suffered very high rates of mortality. A few dedicated individuals with close ties to the Colombian exporters recommended making some changes in the way Altums are handled in their facilities and to begin collecting the very small young Altums of the year and as a result of these efforts last year more hobbyists than ever before had much improved experiences with these very small Altums. One problem many exporters in Bogota had was that they were not heating their Altum holding tanks. Altums are warm water fish and Bogota is something like 8000 feet above sea level and their weather is much cooler at night. This cycling everyday between hot and cool was beyond the abilities of Altums to handle.
So be patient and buy them very small and you will be rewarded with an easier go with your Altums and avoid the later seasons' larger specimens' high mortality problems.

One of the problems associated with the larger specimens, 2+ inches body diameters, is that most of them were low hanging fruit; fish trapped in isolated and stagnating pools so their physical degradation already had begun. Add to that the generally hard ordeal of fish making their way through to distribution network these slightly larger fish had the same old mortality and disese problems. To the trade, an Altum over 2 inches in body size is considered medium to large in size depsite their much larger size attained as adults.
If you buy only the very small specimens at the beginning of the Altum season you will have a much better experience. Of course, these little guys do fine with good sized Cardinals and Rummy Noses but as they get large I recommend keeping them with rhomboid shaped Tetra species like Diamond Tetras or Bleeding Heart Tetras. Still, many people manage to keep their large Altums with adult cardinals and Rummy Noses if the fish have grown up together. Still, you never know when the Altums will decide to begin eating slender tetras. Also avoid keeping Otocinclus with Altums. Too many hobbyists have learned the hard way that even the largest Altums die when they get an Otocinclus spines wedged in their throats and this is an irreversible condition in which both fish die. To simply add average sized cardinals into a tank of larger Altums is to have just spent a lot of money on some very good live food for the Altums.
Good tank mates for Altums include Mesonauta species, Dwarf pike Cichlids and even Heros species. They are nearly always found together and they help avoid the "too many striped fish" problem Al mentions. It is always best to bring these together when they are still small and allow them to grow up together. These companions make more interesting tank mates for Altums than Discus but that is just my opinion.

[damian_ireland]

sorry if I was unclear... I will getting getting sticking to wild discus and avoiding altums.

[Willie]

I've kept altums before and found that they cannot handle the large water changes that discus require.

Willie

[Apistomaster]

I've kept altums before and found that they cannot handle the large water changes that discus require.

Willie

That is counter what the Altum keepers I know practice and recommend unless you mean the ridiculous up to 90% daily water changes some Discus keepers think are necessary.

[illumnae]

While the OP has stated that he no longer intends to keep altums with his wild discus, I think it'd be good to keep this thread alive for future people who are searching for answers on the same question.

I keep my altums with heckel discus (both wild of course) with no issues. After getting used to the surroundings, the heckels are not as timid as people make them out to be. They do not get bullied by my altums and in fact, I constantly see them assert their rights to the more boisterous altums. Many a time when the altums' squabbles bring them within the comfort zone of one or more heckels, the heckels will assertively chase the altums away. The altums seem to realize their boundaries and calmly move away from the offending spot to continue their games elsewhere. Most other times, especially during feeding times, they tend to mix together and chill out as if they are friends. They definitely get along.

As for large water changes, I used to do weekly 60-70% water changes on that tank. I don't anymore, but back when I did, the altums and heckels both enjoyed it alot. None got any worse off due to the water changes. When I first started keeping the altums, 70-80% water changes were done 3 times a week. Again, though the altums were frail (newly imported), no adverse reactions were observed