Breeding 2 pairs in 1 tank

[wiifish]

Hi all...this is my first post on this site. :p

I had a few questions on breeding Discus. I have been away from the hobby for almost 20 years but I never forgot those beautiful Discus. I am back and can afford a few fish unlike when I was a struggling student...YEA! I started getting luck...or rather my fish are... I scored my first pair of Leopard skins and two days in my 120 planted tank (which was my intention for them) THEY STARTED BREEDING! I never would have dreamed I would see the day I would get a chance at breeding these beauties. They have bred 3 times since I got them and they ate all their eggs :mad: The female recent developed some gill bacteria or maybe gill fluke. I have her under quarantine and she is being treated. Doing well but stressed. I bought a brand new spanking tank for them...a 40 gallon (36x18x24 I believe). They did fine and did breed but as I said ..ate ALL the eggs. Today I scored a second pair. I forgot what kind they called it as it was definitely a pair. They were shaking their fins at each other more than a flag on a windy day! The male chased everyone from his mate. The store owner said they were a proven pair. Approx 9 months old (about 5"). I got them home and thought, I better not put them in the planted tank as I have cardinals...to much stress for them to fend off egg eating fish. I decided to stick them in the 40 gallon and see if they will still exhibit the same MOJO they had in the store, only with my male Leopardskin lurking around. I guess the rule of 3 took over and the Leopardskin chased everyone around and the female of the new pair was so submissive, she let him peck her all over including her face. I Figured too much aggression at stake so I went to Home Depot and bought a plastic light diffuser/ Louvre which made a perfect tank divider. Just hope it is safe for the fish as many site on other forums stated they used them w/o issues. My questions are these (long winded intro...sorry);

1) Is the 50/50 divided 40 gallon tank sufficient for the 2 pairs to do their thing or will it be too small/stressful as they can see each other through the divider?

2) I am concerned if either pair succeeds in breeding and I get wigglers ...they can swim through the diffuser...at this point should I remove the wigglers or 1 of the pairs.

3) When my original pair bred, they ate all the eggs. I'm told to let them try about 6 times and if they still do it, then the LFS said to swap out the male. Is there any truth to this? Also I don't know how easy it will be to pair another male as I see today the male beat up both the new male and female.

4) Are eggs brown or clear when healthy? Mine were a bit brown but cloudy.

5) I am treating my Female (gill infection/fluke) in a 10 gallon all by her lonesome. Using API Triple Sulfa Powder. Will this screw up her breeding cycle and how often are these cycles? I heard they breed once a week for a few weeks and then lay off for months. Will the drug make her eggs not hatchable? My pair bred ever few days before she was sick. I saw her look like she was gaging...poor thing. I tried to not use medication for as long as I could and decided it was time to treat her.

Thanks for reading and any answers would be greatly appreciated! Also I am so happy there are so many new strains of DISCUS...they are like colorful saltwater fish only they are freshwater. With sites like these, raising Discus is so much easier!!!


Cheers!

[DerekFF]

Good post with good questions. Ill be sure to follow this as i cant help ya. Sorry!

[Eddie]

First off, welcome back to the discus world. Second, it sounds like you skipped the quarantine process. I'd be watching for sickness in the new fish or your older fish. I suspect the new ones, since they are stressed from the leopard and will be vulnerable to any/all parasites.

1) Is the 50/50 divided 40 gallon tank sufficient for the 2 pairs to do their thing or will it be too small/stressful as they can see each other through the divider?

I would not advise splitting a 40 for breeding 2 pairs. It would be too tricky and you would really have to stay on top of water quality BIG TIME.

2) I am concerned if either pair succeeds in breeding and I get wigglers ...they can swim through the diffuser...at this point should I remove the wigglers or 1 of the pairs.

If they do get to free-swimming, they will surely be eaten with gusto, by the other pair. You could artificially raise the fry if you know the pair is confirmed. I find artificially raising harder than parent raising.

3) When my original pair bred, they ate all the eggs. I'm told to let them try about 6 times and if they still do it, then the LFS said to swap out the male. Is there any truth to this? Also I don't know how easy it will be to pair another male as I see today the male beat up both the new male and female.

Pairs can eat eggs many many times, 6 is no magic number. I would not be swapping fish like that, so skip swapping the male with the LFS. Each fish is different so you never know what you are gonna get, even if the fish are ones you know well, you never know what they will do with a new fish.

4) Are eggs brown or clear when healthy? Mine were a bit brown but cloudy.

If they are amber colored after 24-48 hours, they are fertilized.

5) I am treating my Female (gill infection/fluke) in a 10 gallon all by her lonesome. Using API Triple Sulfa Powder. Will this screw up her breeding cycle and how often are these cycles? I heard they breed once a week for a few weeks and then lay off for months. Will the drug make her eggs not hatchable? My pair bred ever few days before she was sick. I saw her look like she was gaging...poor thing. I tried to not use medication for as long as I could and decided it was time to treat her.

It may screw up her cycle but it doesn't matter, the health or survival of the fish is most important at the moment. The T-Sulfa will not affect her eggs. T-Sulfa is an antibiotic and would not be my choice of treatment at this stage. Generally a fish develops a secondary infection from presence or irritation of an external parasite. Flukes are totally unaffected by antibiotics. If it is in fact flukes, the problem will not get better as you are treating the symptoms, not the root cause. Eliminating the parasite will allow the fish to recover, and it may not need antibiotics. What made you think it was gill fluke/disease.


Eddie

[DerekFF]

Eddie you are god like to the discus world!

[Eddie]

Eddie you are god like to the discus world!

You're crazy! LOL Discus are god's of their own world. We serve them. ;)

[jeff@zina.com]

And sort of an opposite on some points:

1) I wouldn't put two pair in a 40, but it can be done.

2) Free swimmers may not get eaten by another pair, I've had surrogate parents raise wigglers from another pair before. But the simple solution is use a divider with smaller holes.

3) Are you breeding commercially? If not, let the parents get used to eggs, whether it's a few or a dozen tries. If you are, stop parent raising, there's no profit in it.

4) 24 hours or so after laying they will turn white or be fertile. The terms "white", "clear", "brown", "dark", etc. are subjective of course.

5) Don't worry about breeding until the fish is healthy. Good food and good water will make them breed again.

Jeff

[wiifish]

Thanks everyone for your input. After all the remarks, I guess I will have to start up a 4th tank :mad: I have an old 65 gallon in the garage...may need to reseal as it has been outside for almost a decade.



It may screw up her cycle but it doesn't matter, the health or survival of the fish is most important at the moment. The T-Sulfa will not affect her eggs. T-Sulfa is an antibiotic and would not be my choice of treatment at this stage. Generally a fish develops a secondary infection from presence or irritation of an external parasite. Flukes are totally unaffected by antibiotics. If it is in fact flukes, the problem will not get better as you are treating the symptoms, not the root cause. Eliminating the parasite will allow the fish to recover, and it may not need antibiotics. What made you think it was gill fluke/disease.

I could not agree with you more as the Health of ALL my discus, breeding or non breeding are the most important. I know from the past when I was keeping Discus, often the smaller ones 2" or so always seem to develop Gill fluke as I remember this is what it was called. One gill works hard while breathing and/or the other side stays closed. My quarantined one is only using one side and she looks like she is choking and that is why I wanted to treat her. The LFS recommended the drug as he says he had discus for many decades and said this will affect her less.


Are you breeding commercially? If not, let the parents get used to eggs, whether it's a few or a dozen tries. If you are, stop parent raising, there's no profit in it.

I am not in this for the $$ by any means and I am not a commercial breeder. I only got back into fish because my daughter's toddler's face whenever she sees them is describable. It reminds me of me when I was young. I wanted to let her experience the joys. I've raised many fish in my younger years and got bored with most fish. I fell in love with Discus and unfortunately one day I had split up with my girlfriend at the time and she took the fish (they ALL died 1 month later :mad:). Since then I knew one day I would be back and I would be able to have the honor in trying to breed them. I have never been able to do this in the past. What better way to share the joys of fish raising with my daughter by seeing Discus fry?

I am in PANIC MODE now...I saw these things on my aquarium glass when I decided to light up the tank with my Current USA LED moonlights. To my surprise, it was like watching CSI instead. I saw these little white dots all over the aquarium glass. Didn't think anything of them. I noticed on the breeding cone, it was covered by a VERY strange white fuzz. When I took a closer look, I saw they were polyp type micro-organisms. I removed the cone and rinsed it thoroughly in hot water. When I placed it back in the tank, they were of course gone. Then when the moonlights came on my tank glass was covered with this stuff.... I took pictures and not sure if these are dangerous and if I should remove the fish and shut down the tank or what. One big chain LFS store recommended I use a UV sterilizer. Says they are speechless and never heard of this type of outbreak before. I took some pictures and hope if you guys can enlighten me....I want to make sure everything is ok....I am going to take some water tests and post them later. The only chemicals I use in this breeder tank is 1) Prime 2) Acid Buffer (seachem) and finally I use Peat Moss in a stocking ..it's the stuff from the garden center which I was assured it has not added fertilizer etc... The temp is about 85 degrees and I try to maintain PH at 6.6. I use Peat to soften the water and prevent any spikes in PH.

Pics;

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af360/wiidiscus/DSC00019.jpg

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af360/wiidiscus/DSC00017.jpg

Thanks to everyone again!

[wiifish]

Thanks everyone for your input. After all the remarks, I guess I will have to start up a 4th tank :mad: I have an old 65 gallon in the garage...may need to reseal as it has been outside for almost a decade.



It may screw up her cycle but it doesn't matter, the health or survival of the fish is most important at the moment. The T-Sulfa will not affect her eggs. T-Sulfa is an antibiotic and would not be my choice of treatment at this stage. Generally a fish develops a secondary infection from presence or irritation of an external parasite. Flukes are totally unaffected by antibiotics. If it is in fact flukes, the problem will not get better as you are treating the symptoms, not the root cause. Eliminating the parasite will allow the fish to recover, and it may not need antibiotics. What made you think it was gill fluke/disease.

I could not agree with you more as the Health of ALL my discus, breeding or non breeding are the most important. I know from the past when I was keeping Discus, often the smaller ones 2" or so always seem to develop Gill fluke as I remember this is what it was called. One gill works hard while breathing and/or the other side stays closed. My quarantined one is only using one side and she looks like she is choking and that is why I wanted to treat her. The LFS recommended the drug as he says he had discus for many decades and said this will affect her less.


Are you breeding commercially? If not, let the parents get used to eggs, whether it's a few or a dozen tries. If you are, stop parent raising, there's no profit in it.

I am not in this for the $$ by any means and I am not a commercial breeder. I only got back into fish because my daughter's toddler's face whenever she sees them is describable. It reminds me of me when I was young. I wanted to let her experience the joys. I've raised many fish in my younger years and got bored with most fish. I fell in love with Discus and unfortunately one day I had split up with my girlfriend at the time and she took the fish (they ALL died 1 month later :mad:). Since then I knew one day I would be back and I would be able to have the honor in trying to breed them. I have never been able to do this in the past. What better way to share the joys of fish raising with my daughter by seeing Discus fry?

I am in PANIC MODE now...I saw these things on my aquarium glass when I decided to light up the tank with my Current USA LED moonlights. To my surprise, it was like watching CSI instead. I saw these little white dots all over the aquarium glass. Didn't think anything of them. I noticed on the breeding cone, it was covered by a VERY strange white fuzz. When I took a closer look, I saw they were polyp type micro-organisms. I removed the cone and rinsed it thoroughly in hot water. When I placed it back in the tank, they were of course gone. Then when the moonlights came on my tank glass was covered with this stuff.... I took pictures and not sure if these are dangerous and if I should remove the fish and shut down the tank or what. One big chain LFS store recommended I use a UV sterilizer. Says they are speechless and never heard of this type of outbreak before. I took some pictures and hope if you guys can enlighten me....I want to make sure everything is ok....I am going to take some water tests and post them later. The only chemicals I use in this breeder tank is 1) Prime 2) Acid Buffer (seachem) and finally I use Peat Moss in a stocking ..it's the stuff from the garden center which I was assured it has not added fertilizer etc... The temp is about 85 degrees and I try to maintain PH at 6.6. I use Peat to soften the water and prevent any spikes in PH.

Pics;

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af360/wiidiscus/DSC00017.jpg
http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af360/wiidiscus/DSC00019.jpg

[moik]

Discus bulters,,,I feel like one anymore..LOLOL
You're crazy! LOL Discus are god's of their own world. We serve them. ;)

[wiifish]

Here is the updated water parameters post micro organism outbreak...

PH 6.8
Ammonia .50
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 10

Not sure why but I do water changes daily..even twice daily and the ammonis levels are always between 0.50 and 1.0. I do not over feed, I have a bare bottom tank and this was the case with 1 pair as well:mad:

Oh well.. I feel like a Discus slave and the Gods are always angry:angel:

[Eddie]

Here is the updated water parameters post micro organism outbreak...

PH 6.8
Ammonia .50
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 10

Not sure why but I do water changes daily..even twice daily and the ammonis levels are always between 0.50 and 1.0. I do not over feed, I have a bare bottom tank and this was the case with 1 pair as well:mad:

Oh well.. I feel like a Discus slave and the Gods are always angry:angel:

What brand test kit do you have? What brand water conditioner are you using? And have you ever tested your straight tap water for ammonia/nitrates?

Eddie

[wiifish]

What brand test kit do you have? What brand water conditioner are you using? And have you ever tested your straight tap water for ammonia/nitrates?

Eddie

I am using the API test kit so it is by color that I take the reading. Sometimes it's a bit difficult to tell the actual color as it may be lighter or deeper. Was thinking of the pinpoint system but I sunk a tonne of money in start up costs.


As for ammonia and nitrates, I adid not test for it and I am assuming they are at 0 off the tap...the reasoning is when I filled up the 120 gallon when I first started the tank, I did check everything and everything was 0 and PH was adjusted to 6.6 .
I am also using PRIME as the conditioner. I did squirt some "Big Als bio support" from a place called Big Als aquarium in Toronto. Supposed to have live bacteria in that stuff.