Sick discus: first timer

[josinski]

Hi all--I'm wondering if I can get some advice. I just had a juvie discus die overnight and I'm hoping the other three won't die too. Here's the situation:

1) first time discus owner, set up a 37 gal tank with a Fluval filter system about 7 weeks ago. Gravel with plants and bogwood, added 6 tetras, 3 white clouds as starter fish. Never saw an ammonia spike due to the plants I believe. To this day never measured anything but zero for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. ph maintained around 6.6-6.8, temp 83-84.

2) added a couple corys and a couple dwarf otos to help keep it clean of algae and scraps. Water changes twice a week, 15% each.

3) about 10 days ago, I got three 4-mo old discus (about 3.5 inches) from a breeder who raised them in bare tanks. As soon as I put them in my tank (after about 45 min acclimation) they huddled in a corner and turned dark. Didn't see them eat much but food disappears overnight. I assumed it was just stress from the transport (I drove them, not through the mail) and adjustment to a new environment.

4) a few days later I bought another discus from a LFS that had been in a planted tank for about a month. He adapted better and stayed colorful.

5) the first three stayed dark and one developed large white patches on his side, looked like no slime coat there so I set up a 10 gal bare hospital tank and added him and a buddy and medicated with Maracyn Plus. They were eating live blackworms that I got from the LFS. 30% WC every other day in this one. In the main tank remained the discus from the LFS and the healthiest looking one from the breeder.

6) after four days the two in the hospital tank were looking better, white patches were gone but I measured an ammonia spike so I moved them back to the main tank. Ammonia measured 4ppm which I agree is high and it surprised me that it happened so fast. I had put some aquarium water from the main tank in the hospital tank to help culture good bacteria but it wasn't fully cycled so I was monitoring it closely.

7) meanwhile in the main tank the LFS discus has been starting to tilt to one side a lot as he hangs in the tank. He is still eating the live blackworms and otherwise looks OK but nevertheless I am worried about him.

8) this morning one of the two discus that had been in the hospital tank was dead. Could the ammonia spike have killed him a day later, even though I think I caught it quickly?

9) should I be medicating my main tank? what are the cons for doing this? if there is something in my water infecting the fish how do I get rid of it?

10) all the other small community fish are doing fine of course. The other discus bought from the breeder that stayed in the main tank still seems OK but I can't say I am too sure. Both fish left from the breeder are still quite dark in color so they are far from normal. and I'm not entirely sure how much to expect they should be eating.

any other advice would be welcome--not sure what I could be doing wrong. I will probably get some flak about needing more water changes in my main tank but what does that really accomplish if I measure good water quality? Sometimes it seems like religion more than science as to how much water changes one needs... somehow I think there is something else going on...not sure.

Thanks.

[Spardas]

Loose the gravel and everything else in the tank. Treat the entire tank with PP for 4 hours, followed with furan 2 combined with salt. Daily w/c of at least 50% or more during treatment and after.

Get a 55 gallon tank and cycle it and get 3 more discus and QT (treating fish for internal/external parasites & bacteria/deworm/etc) it in there and then take one from the 37 gallon and mix them together and observe after a period of 2 weeks. If no problems, move the other 2 over as well.

Do daily w/c of 50% or more and feed 5-6 times a day since these are juvies.

Diet needs to be high in protein (about 50% protein). Feed a varied diet of beefheart mix, FBW, freeze dried, quality pellet/flake, and live if you can get them.

Every 2-3 months, retreat tank with antibiotics/de-wormers.

Research, research, research, and research!!! Don't buy on impulse, do your homework. It'll save you lots of time and money. The way you set up you're 37 gallon tank is definitely not for discus and not for any juvies.

Water changes are needed due to the large amount of food being fed to juvies on a daily basis. If you only feed your juvies sparingly every day, they'll be stunted or will slowly wither away.

[josinski]

Thanks for your thoughts--it sounds like you are quite opposed to a planted tank with gravel though--is that right? But aren't there some healthy planted discus tanks out there--isn't it possible? I feel like I researched a fair amount--none of this was impulsive. I think there are lots of differing opinions out there too, so I'm not always sure who to believe.

[Spardas]

Thanks for your thoughts--it sounds like you are quite opposed to a planted tank with gravel though--is that right? But aren't there some healthy planted discus tanks out there--isn't it possible? I feel like I researched a fair amount--none of this was impulsive. I think there are lots of differing opinions out there too, so I'm not always sure who to believe.

I'm not opposed to planted tank. But I'm just saying that your planted tank is not suited for juvies discus. Not only that, you didn't QT at all and that's another big issue because different fishes develop different immunities and if you put them all together right away, they'll end up infecting each other. The number of discus you have is also not adequate as discus are social creatures with a pecking order and would need to be in group of 6 or more unless its a pair.

Also, treatment for show tank or planted tank is more difficult and you'll have to treat everything in the tank and some things fish may survive; but plants can't. The thing with juvies is that they require a steady high protein/balanced diet numerous times a day for them to grow properly. Gravel becomes a trap for uneaten food and detritus if you don't do daily clean up and is extremely meticulous with siphoning and water changes. This is even worse in a small volume tank such as your tank.

If you want a planted tank, you need to do it right. If you want to grow out juvies discus, get them into a BB tank to make your life easier. Then when they are sub-adults or adults, you can introduce them back into a planted tank. Now, it's not impossible to raise juvies in planted tank, but those tanks are larger than yours and maintainence and diet play a heavy factor in it. As of now, you don't meet up to the standard of what is proper diet and maintainence.

This is all my own opinion and you can certainly wait for others to chime in.

Best Regards

[MostlyDiscus]

I totally agree with spardas in reguards to the cross infection. PP would be the way I would treat as most times its external problems. The internal problems manifest and reveal themselves in diff ways, like stringy white feces and take more time. In order for juvees to grow out to show quality they need to be feed many times a day with vaired foods so BB tanks are a better choice so that they can be kept clean. QT is the biggest problem here. Too many discus from too many sources. The problem is that at this point the discus resistance has been compromised and thus other critters can come in and take advantage and get a foothold.


Ed