What makes Discus grow the biggest the fastest?

[CammieTime]

What is the best method to get 2.5" discuss to 6" or greater as fast as possible?

~Does it depend more on the number of times a day they are fed?
~Or is the number of water changes they receive a day the most important?
~Or does it depend on the content and quality of the food?
~Or the number of fish in the tank and it's size?

[Chad Hughes]

What is the best method to get 2.5" discuss to 6" or greater as fast as possible?

~Does it depend more on the number of times a day they are fed?
* Three times daily with excellent quality fortified beefheart will get great growth!
~Or is the number of water changes they receive a day the most important?
* Consistent water changes are best... Really depends on yur setup here.
~Or does it depend on the content and quality of the food?
* I would say this is one of the most, if not THE most, important aspect of raising health, large discus.
~Or the number of fish in the tank and it's size?
* Size of the tank is pretty important. The 10 gal per discus rule is a pretty good one to follow.

Lastly, stock... Good stock to start with is extremely important!

Best wishes!

[mjs020294]

Steroids.

[dwilder]

What is the best method to get 2.5" discuss to 6" or greater as fast as possible?

~Does it depend more on the number of times a day they are fed?
~Or is the number of water changes they receive a day the most important?
~Or does it depend on the content and quality of the food?
~Or the number of fish in the tank and it's size?

all of the above

[hedut]

alot WC and a lot feed time:D:D:D

[Eddie]

Healthy stock, good foods and good water.

[Jhhnn]

What is the best method to get 2.5" discuss to 6" or greater as fast as possible?

~Does it depend more on the number of times a day they are fed?
~Or is the number of water changes they receive a day the most important?
~Or does it depend on the content and quality of the food?
~Or the number of fish in the tank and it's size?

I'm mostly with Chad.

In my limited experience, feeding 3 times a day is good. It's very important that the quantity of food is large enough each time so that the more aggressive feeders don't get it all. You want fat bellies on all the fish when the food is gone. If it takes 'em 20-30 minutes to eat it all, that's OK. I vary the diet, using beefheart, mysis, spirulina brineshrimp, seafood mix and frozen bloodworms. My discus look at me like I'm an idiot when I offer flakes or pellets... it might be possible to overfeed using dry foods, causing bloat- dunno... otherwise, they just eat 'til they're stuffed and quit...

I observe the 1 fish per 10 gal rule, or close to it (8 fish in a barebottom 75, for example) and change at least half the water daily. Put some money up front to create a water changing system that's right for you, that makes it quick and easy. Properly executed, water changes will greatly benefit your fish- it's not possible, imho, to change too much water.

Good stock that's been properly reared is extremely important- you want nice fat youngsters, not skinny, not with eyes that are too big for their bodies. If they're already stunted when you get 'em, they'll never get very big... no matter how well you treat 'em...

Buy at least 6 of the largest fish you can reasonably afford, from one of our sponsors. Go with something basic and hardy- Turqs, Blue Diamonds, basic snakeskins, Alenquers, like that.

I've dealt with Kenny Cheung twice, and can't recommend him highly enough. No regrets there.

[David Rose]

I agree with Chad and if the budget allows, you could always use some quality supplements:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77769

Best of luck with your discus!

[Scribbles]

Start with healthy high quality stock, feed them well, and keep the water clean and stable.

Chris

[Keith Perkins]

One other thing that will help is spreading the feeding times as much as you reasonably can. Fish that are feed at 8am, 3pm and 10pm will grow faster than those feed at 9am, 3pm and 9pm.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

In order of importance:

1. water quality
2. food quality
3. food quantity
4. disease/stress
5. competition

Ideal situation is to mantain absolute perfect water quality 24/7 via powerful filtration and frequent water changes. Feed a high quality food that has proper levels of fat and protein (most lack enough fat for fast growing fry). Be sure to feed to satiation (till they're absolutely full). Minimize any stressors (water quality and disease being primary). IMO, an overstocked tank will grow fish better quality/faster than one moderately stocked....more fish, more competition, more food they eat (overstocked while still maintaining water quality is key).

Follow the above and you'll have fat, fast growing, healthy fish (not just discus, but all fish).

-Ryan

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

One other thing that will help is spreading the feeding times as much as you reasonably can. Fish that are feed at 8am, 3pm and 10pm will grow faster than those feed at 9am, 3pm and 9pm.

Ditto....spreading the feeding out allows for maximum retention time within the gut. Some keepers are intent on feeding 10+ times per day. It doesnt work like that. An animal can only absorb so much in a day. By cramming them full of food like that 24/7 it becomes a factory line....constantly moving with little time for absorption. What people dont realize is that it takes time for the body to break down certain amino acids and fats so that they can use them properly. Feed them too often and you arent allowing your fish to absorb/break down certain nutrients in the food....which will result in a lack of certain amino acids and/or fats. Sure they may grow quicker initially, but there will be a retardation of growth after a while due to the lack of certain nutrients not being absorbed/broken down while in the gut.

This can also explain why discus tend to slow down in their rapid growth once they hit the 3-3.5" mark...their body changes and their requirements for amino acids and/or fats (among other things) arent being met in sufficient quantities. When young their bodies may require tons of lysine, but minimal methionine (for example)....they grow quick because the food you feed provides what they need. But once they hit a certain age, their need for the lysine lessens and maybe the need for methionine increases. Well, keep feeding the same food and you'll end up with a bunch of incomplete amino acid chains that are useless along with a lot of wasted lysine (resulting in slower growth). Once you notice a slow down in the growth of your fish, try changing their diet a bit....use different ingredients in your BH mix, or try feeding them more of certain dry feeds. Experiment and see what works best. When you figure it out let me know, lol.

-Ryan

[Jhhnn]

Dunno that fish growth actually slows down as the get past 3"- more like our perception of it is different. Thinking it over, it seems to me that being round, discus growth appears to slow as they're getting bigger because it's a square function, area = Pi R squared. and they're getting thicker, too. I suspect that if we were to actually weigh the fish on, say, a weekly basis, we'd see that they're still gaining weight strictly as a function of nutrient absorption from their food. That's really a very inefficient process, in my limited experience, requiring several grams of food to achieve a single gram of weight gain...

I also think there's some supposition in the idea that fish won't absorb nutrients properly if fed too many times per day, although I'm sure there's a point of diminished returns, maybe even a point where the fish actually eat less when fed more often because they never really get hungry.

My own discus have grown extremely well when fed to satiation 3 times a day- 7:30AM, 5:30-6:00PM, again at 9:30-10:00PM. With younger growing fish, I also feed them about midday on weekends when I can. I save the messiest food, seafood mix, for the last feeding of the day, make sure there's plenty and plenty of time to eat it, because I change their water right after that, anyway. Any extra doesn't lay around in the tank for long.

I have no recent experience with fish smaller than ~3-1/2", so it may be different with them, dunno.

It's a rare occasion when I don't do the usual 50%+ daily water change. We haven't gone anywhere overnight in quite awhile, and if we're out late or whatever, I still siphon up the poop before going to bed...

[GlennR]

Nobody has mentioned "temperature" being a factor. I know that higher temps increase metabolism. How does it affect grow rates?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Dunno that fish growth actually slows down as the get past 3"- more like our perception of it is different. Thinking it over, it seems to me that being round, discus growth appears to slow as they're getting bigger because it's a square function, area = Pi R squared. and they're getting thicker, too. I suspect that if we were to actually weigh the fish on, say, a weekly basis, we'd see that they're still gaining weight strictly as a function of nutrient absorption from their food. That's really a very inefficient process, in my limited experience, requiring several grams of food to achieve a single gram of weight gain...

I also think there's some supposition in the idea that fish won't absorb nutrients properly if fed too many times per day, although I'm sure there's a point of diminished returns, maybe even a point where the fish actually eat less when fed more often because they never really get hungry.

My own discus have grown extremely well when fed to satiation 3 times a day- 7:30AM, 5:30-6:00PM, again at 9:30-10:00PM. With younger growing fish, I also feed them about midday on weekends when I can. I save the messiest food, seafood mix, for the last feeding of the day, make sure there's plenty and plenty of time to eat it, because I change their water right after that, anyway. Any extra doesn't lay around in the tank for long.

I have no recent experience with fish smaller than ~3-1/2", so it may be different with them, dunno.

It's a rare occasion when I don't do the usual 50%+ daily water change. We haven't gone anywhere overnight in quite awhile, and if we're out late or whatever, I still siphon up the poop before going to bed...

You could very well be right as the weight/thickness does indeed increase more so once they reach that size/age range. Unfortunately there are so many variables between hobbyists growth rates (food, water quality, etc) that it may be a never ending question. And yes, weighing them weekly is an excellent way to judge growth and to determine the Feed Conversion Ratio (FCR). Determining a FCR is an excellent way to see how well your fish grow on a certain diet at a given age. Once you find a baseline, you tweak it and get the FCR as close to 1:1 as possible.....1:1 is theoretically impossible, but fish like catfish or tilapia are to the point now in nutritional research that they are getting FCR's well below 2:1 (2lb fed, 1lb gain). Discus I would imagine are no where near that, possibly nearing double digits.

FCR's are extremely important to breeders in specific as FCR's are simply another word for profit. The worse the FCR, the lower the profit margin is (more feed required). If you are a good breeder you'll establish a baseline FCR and weight for each given age/size....you can use that as a benchmark for all the fry being raised. Check the weight weekly and adjust your feeding regimine as needed (keep them on track and growing in a more linear pattern). It will also make predictions of when fry are available for sale easier as well. Never hurts to know too much about pretty much all aspects of fish growth to determine how well they truely are doing. Matter of fact, if you are really good and have a long recorded history of tracking FCR's and weight you can even tell when a possible disease issue is getting ready to pop up....just look for a dip in growth compared to where your records show they should be at.

-Ryan

[diamond_discus]

Nobody has mentioned "temperature" being a factor. I know that higher temps increase metabolism. How does it affect grow rates?

I found that a temp of 86 would work best for my fish (both adult and juv). They are more active and tends to eat more at that temp.

[Barr1542]

For any species of fish you look at, their growth rate is through the roof as larvae and young juveniles and slows down as they get bigger. Also when they begin to mature they are investing energy in gonad development rather than putting on lbs.
I would bet you could get FCR's below 1 for discus just hearing how fast the juvies grow. the equation is:

Feed fed / weight gained

If the number is below 1, they are gaining more weight than they are being fed. If you are feeding dry food this is very possible because the feed is "dry" maybe 3-7% moisture and the fish would be considered "wet" when you weigh them, being maybe 80% mositure for example. Now if you are feeding frozen foods, they will have moisture closer to that of your fish, but still probably less as the BH will not be dripping wet when you weigh it.

[tdiscusman]

Ive found this study on fish growth rate (not discus) which state that specific growth rate (SGR) increase with temperature and decrease with weight (see chart). Interesting stuff, I thought I sharẹ

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=764164&jid=PNS&volumeId=52&issueId=03&aid=764156

Tony

[moik]

Gummybears

[Eddie]

Gummybears

But only the white ones. :D

[GlennR]

I wonder what the 4-14 means for the temp curve? It's not celcius because 14c = 57f .

Is 86f the temp that most Discus keepers use? What temp is considered the safe limit?

[moik]

Damm, I thought I was the only one that new that secret..
But only the white ones. :D

[Eddie]

I wonder what the 4-14 means for the temp curve? It's not celcius because 14c = 57f .

Is 86f the temp that most Discus keepers use? What temp is considered the safe limit?

Yes, its celcius, its not a study on discus but another species. 86F is not a definite number but I keep mine at that, +/- 2 degrees.


Eddie

[jerbear]

Purchase them at 6 inches.... Unless you are dying to experience daily water changes...

[Jhhnn]

Purchase them at 6 inches.... Unless you are dying to experience daily water changes...

A point well taken. Even adults seem to require frequent water changes, however.

OTOH, my Blue Scorps are now ~15 months old, given that the importer reckoned they were ~5 months old when I received them at 4" on April 11, 2009. I still feed them heavily, change water daily, and they're still growing pretty well, if at what seems to be a slower pace. The smallest has been catching up to the others, is an easy 6", the largest are 7"+. Per Hans and others, the fish can continue to grow until they're 18-24 months old. I haven't planned on backing off on the water changes, ever.

I guess maybe it depends on what you think is big, and how much time, effort, ingenuity and money you're willing to devote to getting 'em that way... I want mine to be big by anybody's standards, and have proceeded accordingly... The creation of a systematized semi-automatic water changing system is a key element, well worth whatever it takes...

[CammieTime]

Would chaning 100% of the water 3 times a day help, or is it just the total food?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Would chaning 100% of the water 3 times a day help, or is it just the total food?

Changing that much water IMO is unecessary under "normal" circumstances. Even then, if you need to change that much water per day to maintain stable water quality then something is wrong. How much water you change IMO is almost directly related to how much food you feed and how heavy of a bio-load you have in the tank.

Think of it this way...without food, they wont grow. Without proper water quality, they wont eat. It is up to the individual hobbyist to determine what works best for them to achieve their desired results. Water parameters, food fed, temperature, disease, stress, fish genetics, etc all determine how well they will do. Finding that sweetspot where everything is in proper balance is where things happen. What exactly works will highly vary from person to person. What works for me wont necessarily work quite as well for you (and vice versa). Realistically, anyone here on SD can do is tell you what works for them and/or give you a general guideline and a push you in a certain direction. The rest is what makes the hobby so unique.

-Ryan

[Chad Hughes]

Well said Ryan! Couldn't agree more!


Changing that much water IMO is unecessary under "normal" circumstances. Even then, if you need to change that much water per day to maintain stable water quality then something is wrong. How much water you change IMO is almost directly related to how much food you feed and how heavy of a bio-load you have in the tank.

Think of it this way...without food, they wont grow. Without proper water quality, they wont eat. It is up to the individual hobbyist to determine what works best for them to achieve their desired results. Water parameters, food fed, temperature, disease, stress, fish genetics, etc all determine how well they will do. Finding that sweetspot where everything is in proper balance is where things happen. What exactly works will highly vary from person to person. What works for me wont necessarily work quite as well for you (and vice versa). Realistically, anyone here on SD can do is tell you what works for them and/or give you a general guideline and a push you in a certain direction. The rest is what makes the hobby so unique.

-Ryan

[Jhhnn]

As I understand it, some Malaysian breeders do change water several times per day.

I'm definitely a water change advocate, simply because it's worked well for me. The real issue is in getting properly set up to make that easy. I realize not everybody can do things this way, but here's a link to the description of my water changing system and some old pics of my fish- they're a lot larger now...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74240

The small amount of automation is pretty basic, not very expensive, either... 50% daily water changes are a snap, and I really don't hardly have to pay attention thru most of it...

For people who can do it, I think that continuous drip/overflow systems would be even better... just siphon off the poop, let the drip system catch up...

I also think that the theory behind algae filters is sound, and might be a good way to go for people whose water rates are high and changing somewhat less water would be advantageous...

[Eddie]

Would chaning 100% of the water 3 times a day help, or is it just the total food?

Its both.

To really answer your question, there are alot of variables involved. Stocking density playing a big part, foods being fed and how often are also important. Oh and age is important also.

As Jhhnn mentioned, some breeders in different countries really heavily on water changes and it does increase growth. Obviously they are in the industry for it, selling them like hot cakes. ;)


Eddie

[two utes]

One other thing that will help is spreading the feeding times as much as you reasonably can. Fish that are feed at 8am, 3pm and 10pm will grow faster than those feed at 9am, 3pm and 9pm.


Ditto....spreading the feeding out allows for maximum retention time within the gut. Some keepers are intent on feeding 10+ times per day. It doesnt work like that. An animal can only absorb so much in a day. By cramming them full of food like that 24/7 it becomes a factory line....constantly moving with little time for absorption. What people dont realize is that it takes time for the body to break down certain amino acids and fats so that they can use them properly. Feed them too often and you arent allowing your fish to absorb/break down certain nutrients in the food....which will result in a lack of certain amino acids and/or fats. Sure they may grow quicker initially, but there will be a retardation of growth after a while due to the lack of certain nutrients not being absorbed/broken down while in the gut.

This can also explain why discus tend to slow down in their rapid growth once they hit the 3-3.5" mark...their body changes and their requirements for amino acids and/or fats (among other things) arent being met in sufficient quantities. When young their bodies may require tons of lysine, but minimal methionine (for example)....they grow quick because the food you feed provides what they need. But once they hit a certain age, their need for the lysine lessens and maybe the need for methionine increases. Well, keep feeding the same food and you'll end up with a bunch of incomplete amino acid chains that are useless along with a lot of wasted lysine (resulting in slower growth). Once you notice a slow down in the growth of your fish, try changing their diet a bit....use different ingredients in your BH mix, or try feeding them more of certain dry feeds. Experiment and see what works best. When you figure it out let me know, lol.

-Ryan

An old thread which l found very interesting, especially these points listed. I would be interested to hear more about this.

[Filip]

Very informative thread Joe . Thanks for finding it and reposting it.

[pastry]

Wow... Yes, definitely good find to bring back. We all know water change water change water change but I like learning these things too.

[Keith Perkins]

Wish I could tell you more on the subject, but Ryan already greatly surprised my knowledge on the specifics of why it works.

[two utes]

Wish I could tell you more on the subject, but Ryan already greatly surprised my knowledge on the specifics of why it works.

Thanks Keith. It makes lots of good sense....might have to rethink my logic on feeding.

[DISCUS STU]

In this order...

1. Clean water
2. High protein food fed at least three times a day
3. Good genetics
4. Appropriate tank size for growout

[Dhavalsp]

Quote Originally Posted by Keith Perkins View Post
One other thing that will help is spreading the feeding times as much as you reasonably can. Fish that are feed at 8am, 3pm and 10pm will grow faster than those feed at 9am, 3pm and 9pm.

Well this also reduces over night fasting time...which also aids growth...