Fluke like symptoms

[tcmemphisbbq]

All my fish in my 125 have been doing great... 2 days ago I noticed activity was down, couple fish started acting - well, not like their normal selves. Less eating, swimming slower etc -

Did a 50% wc last night and about 2 hours after I noticed that MOST of them were twitching, not attacking thier dinner like normal and dart around.... later in the night they started scratching on the plants, more twitching and gills were flaired open, breathing slightly heavy but not gasping -

Will gill flukes take over this fast? eg within HOURS? or does this sound like a water issue ? eg extra chlramines from water company -

straight tap, no aging, hard water, ph 8+ - 3 days ago ALL the fish were happily begging, eating well and swimming acctively -

NOW here is the kicker, it was 3 or so days ago I brought a new fish into the house..... he is in a qt tank and is doing well, still dark when i am around but we have caught him coloring up when he doesnt think anyone is around and he is eating and poop is a nice dark color so I dont suspect airborne issues but thought i would throw it out there since the timeline is the same :( i am hoping it is coincidental -

Thanks in advance - i do love discus but man they can be frustrating some times hehe

[tcmemphisbbq]

oh and I DID do a QC dose last night before bed, this morning i am not seeing as much twitching and scratching but still not 100% normal behavior -

one other edit - niether of my other tanks is showing this behavior, the 75 gal breeder all fish are great, the qt with the new guy in it, no scratching at all -
*Sigh*

[tcmemphisbbq]

now they are all in one corner near top, not gasping for air just not doing much of anything - corys, tetras are all swimming around like nothingis up -

gonna do a HUGE wc and see if that helps -

Just when I get them all healthy - grrrrrr

Feedback?

tom

[rickztahone]

i forgot who said it here on SD but anything can be accidentally carried to your good stock tanks from your QT without you even knowing it. i think you might have introduced something, what?, i'm not really sure at this point, but it does look like that's the case according to your time-line.

[tcmemphisbbq]

I'm starting to think the same thing - now what to do about it is the next thing -

Should I empty half the tank and start an antibiotic?

Right now all ive got in my med cabinet is

Kanapmycin - kanaplex
metro
quick cure
clout
and one maybe two doses of furan-2 - i can order more online while starting with this if the consensus here is that is what is needed.

i tried to, deliberately, not cross contaminate the two tanks, diff hoses even - but i did use the same main drain hose on my 125 and my 75 - fish in 75 are not showing any signs of anything abnormal, the hans juvies are begging, eating and pooping like crazy as always :-)

grrrrr

just got back to house, doing big wc now - will check back...thanks!

[tcmemphisbbq]

Grr - my pb is top corner on its side at a 45 degree angle :( rest are all kinda hovering up there also - including my angels.....

what do I do?

did a 90% wc a few hours ago -

Help?!?

[Eddie]

Grr - my pb is top corner on its side at a 45 degree angle :( rest are all kinda hovering up there also - including my angels.....

what do I do?

did a 90% wc a few hours ago -

Help?!?

Don't change anymore water, you may have too much gas in your water. This has happened to my fish when I've gone a few days (rarely ever) without changing water and then do a large water change.

Add extra air to the tank, this will help gas out co2 and stabilize the water.


Eddie

[Chester]

Ok,

It would be great if you would fill out the questionaire.

Next

Big water changes > are you oxygenating the water in advance?

I need better info from you to help. The first to keys to fixing this thing are Symptomology and psycology.

Take is slow, please be detailed.

Good luck

Chester :)

[Chester]

Ok,

Lets start here.

Lets do Eddie's suggestion in the meantime. Crank up the air batman! Drive out the carbonic acid.

This will kill 2 stones with one bird. (its more fun that way) :)

1) if you fish are suffering from an O2 shortage this will dix the problem.

2) If indeed your fish are suffering from Flukes, a high O2 level will ease the suffering till treatment begins.


Cheers

Chester :)

[tcmemphisbbq]

extra stone in - they arent flicking like they were last night, last night they were all going nuts all of the sudden at the same time, that is what makes me think it is something with the water -

the pb just got done with a 10day metro treatment and whatever is happening with it now is happening very very fast - he is lissless, almost floating on the surface :( My guess is that he was weakened from the treatment but at the time he was put back into main tank he seemed fine, let him be for a few days after treatment - but he is by far the worse off, one of my yellow diamonds has gone pretty dark and the other is off by itself in the back....green snakeskin is almost black, *sigh*

this seems to be progressing to the worse quikly :(

[tcmemphisbbq]

all of the have clamped fins now, couple flicking/twitching again, about half are swimming with only one fin when/if they move at all with the other fin clinched tighly to its side.....

you guys saying I need to wait this out and see what happens? remember the 90% wc was because this started happening not a result of.

[Chester]

Im not suggesting anything other than cranking up the air and filling out the questionaire twice. Be detailed with time lines for both tanks.

Is it chloramine? I dunno. Add 50% extra binder.

Information is key at this point and you have not provided enough for me to seriously help.

Sorry.

Chester :)

[tcmemphisbbq]

Please complete the questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste)

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

3 Days ago fish change behavior, not aggressive at feedings, hovering, flashing - now fish are progressively getting worse. Some are very dark, hardly eating at all, last night about 2 hours after a 50% wc - ALL of the fish started darting, flashing, scratching had flaired gills, filaments showing, breathing harder than normal but not gasping......

Today, 90% wc fish are hovering not eating - some twitching/flicking/flashing still going on by some fish. pigeon blood hasnt eaten well in 2 weeks. Was in QT for slimy poop with metro for 10 days, then 4 days clean water and food. Was placed back in dt but once back in main dt returned to previous behavior, eg not eating, listless, hovering towards back of tank away from main school.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Clamped fish, flashing, some dark. darting, twitching, hovering not eating - some flaired gills still on some - pigeon blood hovering/floating on top at 60degree anglel almost for sure dead.... :(




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

After noticing increased flashing, scratching, etc last night added another capful of prime for heavy chloramines, then an hour later did a dose of quick cure for possible fluke by how they were acting.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

125 - 6 discus, various ages, 2 angels, 6 corys, 5 black tetras, 10 yellow scissor tails, 2 yoyo loaches(Snails) tank has been setup for over a year and was redone 4 or so months ago -


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Sand bottom, tap water, no aging, 50%-60% wc twice a week and usually a daily vac with 5gal replacement -

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____ 86

- ph _____ 8+

- ammonia reading ____

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

New fish was brought into house SAME timing as the fish going down hill, new fish is in 10 gal QT tank about 10 foot from main display.....new fish has been acting dark but over past couple days is improving in adjusting to the water and to our environment - new fish is eating good and pooping dark, no clamped fins -

I suspected flukes with the sudden flashing scratching, I now suspect something more because of the deteriorating state of the fish -

Meds available -
Furan 2
Metro
Quick Cure
Small bit of kanaplex(not enough for multidaily dosing)
Clout
Fungus Cure
Aquarium Salt

Thanks!!

[tcmemphisbbq]

update -
Fish in main tank - latest observations -
All have clamped fins, darkening, still somewhat flaired gills and only using one fin to swim with.
turq now has white patches on skin, like shedding,
pb - ALL fins clamped top and bottom also, looks like a football.
stunted green snakeskin - white poop but could be worm casings cause its not slimy like flagalate he is very dark though
black angel - base of one fin has turned bright red
Yellow diamonds - dark faced, flaird gills, twitching... not happy -

Edit - fish in 75 gal tank in other room are not exiting ANY of same symptoms, they had 50% wc yesterday also - same water parameters - which makes me think not a water issue

[Chester]

Tom,

Im concern that quick cure is really only copper sulphate. 20 years ago I could kill flukes with copper. not any more.

Clout is stronger.

If you strongly feel your fish are gasping for air, and you are sure you have dealt with any chloramines in your water, Its probably time to break out the clout.

Dont mix meds.

If you have an empty tank, take one of your sick fish and expsoe him to clout.

reading more... Stand by.

[Eddie]

Quick Cure is Formalin & Malachite Green.

I still would not be adding chemicals. Let the air do its work and keep things stable. Bring the temp down to 82F, keep the lights out.

If you dosed the tank with QC at 86F, it is toxic to the fish.


Eddie

[Chester]

update -
Fish in main tank - latest observations -
All have clamped fins, darkening, still somewhat flaired gills and only using one fin to swim with.
turq now has white patches on skin, like shedding,
pb - ALL fins clamped top and bottom also, looks like a football.
stunted green snakeskin - white poop but could be worm casings cause its not slimy like flagalate he is very dark though
black angel - base of one fin has turned bright red
Yellow diamonds - dark faced, flaird gills, twitching... not happy -

Edit - fish in 75 gal tank in other room are not exiting ANY of same symptoms, they had 50% wc yesterday also - same water parameters - which makes me think not a water issue

Wow when it rains it pours. Greyish white patches are classic collumaris.

[tcmemphisbbq]

After I did the 90% wc today I turned back on the HOB which has carbon to get any other meds out - I have clout yes....... it is kinda what I was thinking about also but it almost sounds like I have BOTH things going on, external and bacterial of some sort......

hehe Need some direction from you experts, ive been here over a year and still feel like a newbie - :-)

[tcmemphisbbq]

Yeah that happened in the last few hours, this turq has been doing really well, some may remember it got sick a few months ago but recovered ok, its fin enver grew back but it never got worse either - it was looking really fat and one of my most active eaters and now it barely touches it for last three days and over last couple hours white almost velvety covering on its sides - the others are lighter coloring so I cant tell really if they have same thing -

Tom

[Chester]

Did these fish get bad before or after QC? I mean the grey patches.

There are no meds in the water now?

Thanks eddie, AP's website is down and coudnt find out what wonderful chemicals were in QC.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Quick Cure is Formalin & Malachite Green.

I still would not be adding chemicals. Let the air do its work and keep things stable. Bring the temp down to 82F, keep the lights out.

If you dosed the tank with QC at 86F, it is toxic to the fish.


Eddie

ive not added anything yet - will drop temp down though - I didnt know that about qc - could that be part of my issue Eddie? is that why you are saying let them be for a while?? I did QC last night - full one drop per gallon dose......

Thanks to you both! :-)

[Eddie]

Just to be clear, its not gonna be easy to treat the main tank.

You used QC, this will help kick back externals but can cause secondary infections (white patches, fin damage).

Not sure if there is any evidence of formalin left over from the Quick Cure but I do not believe it is okay to mix it with Trichlorfon. Clout is Trichlorfon, Metro and Malachite Green combined.

Tough call since you dosed with QC. You will have to decide on the right course. Still bring the temp down as the effectiveness of Trichlorfon is temp dependent. This will also slow down bacteria proliferation (secondary infection).


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

They were flashing, scratching and gasping before qc, yes the almost 'bacterial symptoms' didnt happen till after it seems -

Everything in me said us QC for thier symptoms - but before they went nuts they did start not acting the same for the 36 hours before they all went nuts and starting scratching - was a site to see them all pretty much doing it about the same time -

No meds in water - shouldnt be - 90% wc of 125gal with carbon running today

[Chester]

Yeah that happened in the last few hours, this turq has been doing really well, some may remember it got sick a few months ago but recovered ok, its fin enver grew back but it never got worse either - it was looking really fat and one of my most active eaters and now it barely touches it for last three days and over last couple hours white almost velvety covering on its sides - the others are lighter coloring so I cant tell really if they have same thing -

Tom


Tom

I believe this to be classic collumaris. Its a killer if not dealt with swiftly.
Sulfa 4 TMP works very well. But you dont have it :(

I think the local fish store may sell you triple sulpa, but its no where near as strong.

Get em in a qt, 2 teaspoons of salt per 5 gallons, lots of air and a low temp........

I feel for ya man.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Well, i thought about dropping water down to 70 gal which will allow one of my canisters to still run and save meds and dose with Clout - just wondering if i should wait til morning to do it to give them time if the QC was toxic it may have given them relief from the flukes but damaged them otherwise-

If i drop it below 70gal then neither of my canisters can run - only the sponge.

Does a fluke outbreak happen that fast? I mean they went from not as active to down right going nuts all over the tank -

[tcmemphisbbq]

Tom

I believe this to be classic collumaris. Its a killer if not dealt with swiftly.
Sulfa 4 TMP works very well. But you dont have it :(

I think the local fish store may sell you triple sulpa, but its no where near as strong.

Get em in a qt, 2 teaspoons of salt per 5 gallons, lots of air and a low temp........

I feel for ya man.

Ive got more furan2 on order coming tuesday but no triple sulfa, I bought the last of it a month ago from lfs cause they were gonna stop carrying it -
*sigh*

tom

[Eddie]

If it is columnaris, Furan-2 will take care of it much better then sulfas. I do prefer Furanase over Furan - 2 but since Furan 2 is all you have, go with it. Still add the salt, keep temp at 82F and add the air. It would be MUCH better if you could treat the fish in smaller tank, like a 55.


Eddie

[Eddie]

Well, i thought about dropping water down to 70 gal which will allow one of my canisters to still run and save meds and dose with Clout - just wondering if i should wait til morning to do it to give them time if the QC was toxic it may have given them relief from the flukes but damaged them otherwise-

If i drop it below 70gal then neither of my canisters can run - only the sponge.

Does a fluke outbreak happen that fast? I mean they went from not as active to down right going nuts all over the tank -

Don't worry about the canisters, after this, you are gonna have to sterilize everything. Dropping the water in the 70 to half is good. Keep air only, no need for bio when treating with antibiotics.

Fluke outbreaks are not that fast but it may be multiple parasite/bacteria infection. A virus can cause any and all bugs to take over the fish.


Eddie

[Chester]

Just to be clear, its not gonna be easy to treat the main tank.

You used QC, this will help kick back externals but can cause secondary infections (white patches, fin damage).

Not sure if there is any evidence of formalin left over from the Quick Cure but I do not believe it is okay to mix it with Trichlorfon. Clout is Trichlorfon, Metro and Malachite Green combined.

Tough call since you dosed with QC. You will have to decide on the right course. Still bring the temp down as the effectiveness of Trichlorfon is temp dependent. This will also slow down bacteria proliferation (secondary infection).


Eddie


Simply amazing. A great lesson in not using these old chemicals. There are direct solutions now that dont cause this type of insult. I tossed out my formalin, PP etc over a decade ago.

[tcmemphisbbq]

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/columnaris.htm

Says furan can treat it? think i should? After reading that page that IS exactly what it sounds like - i wondered about the patchy coloring of the yellows which is says can be part of it -

Tom

[Eddie]

If it is columnaris, Furan-2 will take care of it much better then sulfas. I do prefer Furanase over Furan - 2 but since Furan 2 is all you have, go with it. Still add the salt, keep temp at 82F and add the air. It would be MUCH better if you could treat the fish in smaller tank, like a 55.


Eddie


http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/columnaris.htm

Says furan can treat it? think i should? After reading that page that IS exactly what it sounds like - i wondered about the patchy coloring of the yellows which is says can be part of it -

Tom

I mentioned this in a prior post. ;) YES


Eddie

[Chester]

If it is columnaris, Furan-2 will take care of it much better then sulfas. I do prefer Furanase over Furan - 2 but since Furan 2 is all you have, go with it. Still add the salt, keep temp at 82F and add the air. It would be MUCH better if you could treat the fish in smaller tank, like a 55.


Eddie

Funny. Different experinces. I have never had the furan line clean up collumaris in less than 10 days. For me Sulfa 4 TMP does it eveytime in 3 days. (7 days treatment total time)

Good luck.

[Eddie]

Funny. Different experinces. I have never had the furan line clean up collumaris in less than 10 days. For me Sulfa 4 TMP does it eveytime in 3 days. (7 days treatment total time)

Good luck.

Yeah must be, Discus react better to furans. Were you treating discus? In my limited experience, results in 24 hours using furans.


Eddie

[Chester]

Yeah must be, Discus react better to furans. Were you treating discus? In my limited experience, results in 24 hours using furans.


Eddie


I have Discus only. I gave away all my furans and switched to vetrinary grade meds long ago.

Tom > furans all you got, go with it.

Good luck pal.

Chester :)

[tcmemphisbbq]

thanks guys - do I dose per directions 1 packet per 10 gallons?

do i dose again and for how many days? % wc between each? :-)

Sorry never used furan-2 and dont wanna jack my fish up any more hehe - i have enough to dose tonight and tommorrow with 6 more boxes coming tuesday priority....

thanks again guys I REALLY appriciate the advice will keep you both posted also -

[Chester]

thanks guys - do I dose per directions 1 packet per 10 gallons?

do i dose again and for how many days? % wc between each? :-)

Sorry never used furan-2 and dont wanna jack my fish up any more hehe - i have enough to dose tonight and tommorrow with 6 more boxes coming tuesday priority....

thanks again guys I REALLY appriciate the advice will keep you both posted also -

Let Eddie answer this. I dont use this stuff as it doesnt work for me. He suggests your going to get a massive response in 24 hours which will be fantastic.

Good Luck Tom.

Follow the directions on the package if Eddie's gone off line.

Chester

[Eddie]

Tom, make sure you remove the carbon from the filter. I use, and recommend 2 packets per 10 gallons. The dosage amount is very low for one packet, not even close to what is recommended by aquatic vets.

Keep us updated buddy. ;)


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Woke up this morning everyone still alive, not happy but still alive - pb swimming a little more than last night... only been about 10 hours though so will see how they are when I get home today -

thanks again guys!

Tom

[Eddie]

Woke up this morning everyone still alive, not happy but still alive - pb swimming a little more than last night... only been about 10 hours though so will see how they are when I get home today -

thanks again guys!

Tom

Its cool Tom, just keep things going the same. Are you keeping salt in the tank? It will help the fish during the Furan-2 treatment.

Wishing you the best buddy!

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Yes, salt is in also, temp 82 - im optimistic just seeing them a tiny bit more active this morning - they aren't happy about thier tank being only half full and colored piss yellow tho hehe

got a half dose left to give them tonight after dosing heavy last night before more arrives tommorrow lfs didnt have any more locally - no wc, no lights only running spong filter and an extra airstone -

Then tommorrow night wc and full/Eddies dose :)

[Eddie]

Yes, salt is in also, temp 82 - im optimistic just seeing them a tiny bit more active this morning - they aren't happy about thier tank being only half full and colored piss yellow tho hehe

got a half dose left to give them tonight after dosing heavy last night before more arrives tommorrow lfs didnt have any more locally - no wc, no lights only running spong filter and an extra airstone -

Then tommorrow night wc and full/Eddies dose :)

Sounds good buddy, keep us posted.


Eddie

[Eddie]

One more important thing to add Tom. Make sure when you perform a water change, you add the antibiotic to the water before you fill the tank back up, NOT after. ;)


Take care,

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

ok, thanks Eddie - man its hard to sit here and not do anything hehe -

They are all alive - my PB just saw him laying on side, he got up when i came near and they are all hunkered in back of tank sitting on bottom mostly upright - but I know they need to just be left alone and let the meds do their work -

Did have one question - what IF this doesn't work? Are there any other alternatives?

[Eddie]

ok, thanks Eddie - man its hard to sit here and not do anything hehe -

They are all alive - my PB just saw him laying on side, he got up when i came near and they are all hunkered in back of tank sitting on bottom mostly upright - but I know they need to just be left alone and let the meds do their work -

Did have one question - what IF this doesn't work? Are there any other alternatives?

If it does not work, it means there is a heavy parasite load in the tank and the fish cannot recover using the antibiotics. If you can keep the salt at 200 grams per 25 gallons, this will help keep the parasites on submission.

Eddie

[Chester]

Tom,

Tell us about the grey patches. Are they receeding? Or are they now yellowish?

How about the fish that was bleeding at the base of the tail?

What about the breathing rate? Has it slowed down?

Cheers

Chester :)

[tcmemphisbbq]

Actually this morning they are a bit more active - the base of the side fins is blood red on a couple of them, the whitish patches are looking better on the turk -

They are of course all still dark and mad cause of the water level and no food and no lights...... the PB, the sickest one I have seen swimming around more and more... I am cautiously optimistic

Breathing rate seem better - Yes -
Coloring dark
White patches on Turq seems to be getting better or at least Im not seeing the patches on her, she is dark but thats to be expected with the conditions vs what they are used to hehe :-)

More furan-2 coming in today, should I go ahead with the recommended dosage tonight and tommorrow then stop treatment or keep treating longer?

Tom

[tcmemphisbbq]

well crap, fedex isnt deliverying til tommorrow - should I go ahead and do a big wc tonight? I have no more meds to give them - will this setback the AB work on the fish? *sigh*

I definately think after having 8 fish in 50 gal of water for 2 days it needs at least a big change and salt readded - ? What do you think?

Thanks
Tom

[Chester]

Tom,

Well, you are in a spot.

Cant get to a local Fish Store?

If not, and you have to wait for tomorrow, this is what I would do.

Do a 50% change only. This will drop ammonia some and leave some AB in the water and hope to hell it holds it at baye.

2 heaping teaspoons of salt per 5 gallons, Low temp, Lots of air.

Im at work so sorry for the short reply. Ill get you out a long note later.

Make suer you get lots of AB, this ones going to be over 10 ten days putting it down.

Cheers

[tcmemphisbbq]

Thanks man - yeah the LFS doesnt carry it and we bought all they had the other day from the one an hour drive away - so I am in a pickle of nothing...

Will do a wc and salt -

Is furan-2 light sensitive?

[Eddie]

Thanks man - yeah the LFS doesnt carry it and we bought all they had the other day from the one an hour drive away - so I am in a pickle of nothing...

Will do a wc and salt -

Is furan-2 light sensitive?

Yes, Furan-2 is inactivated with light, this is why I recommended to keep the tank lights off. You should not be feeding the fish so simply adding Prime and not doing a water change would have been my recommendation. This way meds stay in the water.


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Well I needed to vac some of the tank, right now its got 45 gal or so with 8 fish not including tetras etc - so I did a vac chngd out 50% last night -

Meds out for delivery today so when they get here I may run home and dose the tank so they get it back in sooner.

Yes, lights have been off whole time cept when I first got home and only for a few so I could "inspect" and make sure they were all still alive.

thanks again guys -

Also - not sure if I missed this but how long do you recommend I keep this up?

[Eddie]

Sounds good Tom. The amount of time for treatment, depends entirely on the fishes recovery. How are they doing today?


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Skittish and hunkering - I doubt they will color up and act normally until I refill thier tank - they are used to having a full tank and lights hehe - the PB still looks bad, I think he may be too far gone with the previous QT time he had few weeks ago -

the rest are pretty jumpy but all are still alive - they arent hunkering at the top any more - so I would say overall positive but its hard to say yet -

I thnk I am gonna do the second half of the treatment and see where they are - good heavy dose today - no lights, no food, no wc - then same tommorrow - wc following day and then may refill tank enough to turn filtration back on give them a day and see how they are acting - bout the best I can think of. :-) I just want my happy begging fish back hehe

Thanks Eddie and Chester
Tom

[Eddie]

Skittish and hunkering - I doubt they will color up and act normally until I refill thier tank - they are used to having a full tank and lights hehe - the PB still looks bad, I think he may be too far gone with the previous QT time he had few weeks ago -

the rest are pretty jumpy but all are still alive - they arent hunkering at the top any more - so I would say overall positive but its hard to say yet -

I thnk I am gonna do the second half of the treatment and see where they are - good heavy dose today - no lights, no food, no wc - then same tommorrow - wc following day and then may refill tank enough to turn filtration back on give them a day and see how they are acting - bout the best I can think of. :-) I just want my happy begging fish back hehe

Thanks Eddie and Chester
Tom

Sounds like its working then! I wouldn't even mess with turning on your old filtration. Start over with new media and everything. Just keep airstones in the tank during treatment and do as you plan. Discus can go a long time without eating. The last outbreak I dealt with personally, the fish went 30 days without food, all of them are alive and well today like they never skipped a beat. ;)

Take care and keep us updated!

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Thanks Eddie! :-)

Tom

[tcmemphisbbq]

Rest were kinda swiming around when I went home, the PB (sickest one) was laying on its side but swam off when I came up to tank. Meds came in so went home and dosed the tank -

*Crossing fingerS*

[Chester]

Tom,

Bleeding stopped and the white patches completely gone? Does the slim coat look normal?


Chester

[Chester]

Eddie,


Ammonia binders have been linked to nephritis. Sick fish, AB's and binders are no longer used for obvious reasons. One drug/chemical at a time unless there are no other options.


Chester

[tcmemphisbbq]

other than being dark the skin looks ok now Chester

ALL of them at the base of thier pectoral fins are red, bright red.... they arent that way on the fish in my 75 which have so far been unaffected, thank god.

Pretty lathargic though - the PB just lays on surface at about a 70degree angle - when i come close he straightens back up - I wish i didnt have anything in my qt cause ide put him in by himself being the worse off - but the cb, which they have laid together seems to be almost hanging around, the CB was hovering under the PB when it was floating, I have to go over every hour to make sure its still alive but from his eye movement he seems more alert than im giving him credit for, just doesnt feel well.

3 hours into the first heavy redose so its early really

[Eddie]

other than being dark the skin looks ok now Chester

ALL of them at the base of thier pectoral fins are red, bright red.... they arent that way on the fish in my 75 which have so far been unaffected, thank god.

Pretty lathargic though - the PB just lays on surface at about a 70degree angle - when i come close he straightens back up - I wish i didnt have anything in my qt cause ide put him in by himself being the worse off - but the cb, which they have laid together seems to be almost hanging around, the CB was hovering under the PB when it was floating, I have to go over every hour to make sure its still alive but from his eye movement he seems more alert than im giving him credit for, just doesnt feel well.

3 hours into the first heavy redose so its early really

Did you get F-2 Tom? Hows the fish doing ATM?


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Well I was suprised this morning the PB was completely upright and attentive. He wasnt laying on his side floating like he was last night or the past few days...... so that is definately a real sign of progress.

Another dose tonight, very small wc since I didnt do one last night but will add the AB before readding the water to keep the pressure on the infection.

Thanks again Eddie....

[Eddie]

Well I was suprised this morning the PB was completely upright and attentive. He wasnt laying on his side floating like he was last night or the past few days...... so that is definately a real sign of progress.

Another dose tonight, very small wc since I didnt do one last night but will add the AB before readding the water to keep the pressure on the infection.

Thanks again Eddie....

Thats excellent news Tom, really good to hear. Hope they continue to improve!


All the best,

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

They seem to be continueing to improve today, just did another dose, this makes 4 since sunday.

the PB is still upright, and the bright blood red crescent that was on them all at the base of the pect is gone on 90% of them and looks pink on the rest like it is fading/going away.......

Ive also been treating the fish in qt even though he is eating/pooping good, still shy but never has acted "sick" - i wanna eventually put him in the main display - Any advice on that? other than dont rush hehe

The box says 4 treatments is a complete treatment, I went heavy on dosing....so should I wc and dose one more time tommorrow to keep pressure on the bug or should I wc tommorrow night add carbon and fill'er up??
That is the question........

Thanks!

[Eddie]

Sounds like a fix! I'd do as you proposed, keep the antibiotics going until full recovery.


For the one in QT, when all the fish have recovered, put one of your existing stock with him in the QT and wait another 2 weeks. Might have a divider ready in the event one starts beating the other. You want to keep them together to see if the new fish is gonna infect the whole group.


Take care,

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

I got just the runt fish to put in with him...gonna wc tonight and redose one more time....

Good newS!!! this morning the PB was swimming around, acting ALOT more like he used to - I am very positive :-)

[Eddie]

I got just the runt fish to put in with him...gonna wc tonight and redose one more time....

Good newS!!! this morning the PB was swimming around, acting ALOT more like he used to - I am very positive :-)

Me too buddy.....me too! Its always nice to hear when fishes recover.

All the best Tom!

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

grrr - now my 75 is infected, noticed same symptoms although not as extreme yet tonight because i watch the fry ALOT i think i caught it early -

One of the pecs on the white diamonds, the male, has blood streaks in it like the fish in the main display - also noticed the hans fish seemed a little sluggish last night and today the kobalt is holding one fin in and it has blood red crescent as well like the white diamond which is like what the main display fish had also. Lucky for me Ive got enough furan-2 to run a course since i can drain it down to 40 gallons.

now here is my question -Im thinking the 11 day old fry are gonna prob be toast from the treatment but should i cut back dosage for the Juvies sake?
(they are 3")

I only have one python for all tanks - been running bleach solution between uses though and then letting ALOT of hot water run through it to flush it out - shouldnt that be enough to prevent it crossing via hose?

Thanks again - at least this time I know how to fix it - but man I am sad to lose those 4 remaining fry....

[Eddie]

grrr - now my 75 is infected, noticed same symptoms although not as extreme yet tonight because i watch the fry ALOT i think i caught it early -

One of the pecs on the white diamonds, the male, has blood streaks in it like the fish in the main display - also noticed the hans fish seemed a little sluggish last night and today the kobalt is holding one fin in and it has blood red crescent as well like the white diamond which is like what the main display fish had also. Lucky for me Ive got enough furan-2 to run a course since i can drain it down to 40 gallons.

now here is my question -Im thinking the 11 day old fry are gonna prob be toast from the treatment but should i cut back dosage for the Juvies sake?
(they are 3")

I only have one python for all tanks - been running bleach solution between uses though and then letting ALOT of hot water run through it to flush it out - shouldnt that be enough to prevent it crossing via hose?

Thanks again - at least this time I know how to fix it - but man I am sad to lose those 4 remaining fry....

I'd cull the 4 fry. Its best at this point. They will lose too much time during treatment. You'll have more fry once you get this out of the way.


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

refilled the main tank today, the filters were nasty so I did a mild bleach soak and then boiled eveything on all three filters - replaced the media in the canisters except for the bio rings but boiled them -
my issue now is I have ZERO good bacteria I am sure - so I will have to stay on top of daily wc's for a while - SHOULD I add some bacteria via the bottled stuff???

good news is that even during refilling the fish were all up front waiting on some food hehe - they werent hunkered down and they seem to be pretty happy now with all the fresh water and tank space back, swimming all over....dropped some hikari worms in and they went nuts for them... PB is still a little sluggish but he did eat a little...

Dropped the 75 down, lights off, double dosed furan-2, added salt... the fish in the 75 weren't as bad as the 125 but I can see where it was starting, especially with the bloody pectorals -

Fish in QT - did a 80% wc on him today, no meds, he is getting more and more used to us and eats great now..not begging for food but when its in his tank whether its pellets or worms he eats them...gonna give him another week at least of no meds and good wc's/food before deciding what to do with him next.

Got all my hoses and buckets soaking in sanitizer right now. So hopefully I am reaching the end of this very stressful ordeal hehe -

[Eddie]

Sounds better with each day Tom. They should be 100% here by the end of the week.

I'd definitely use a bacteria supplement to help kick start the bio colony when the treatment is done. I have had good results using Tetra SafeStart and Seachem Stability. Follow the directions on the bottle to the T.


Let us know how it goes!

Eddie

[joanr]

Phew, that was a work out but good results, that's great! As far as the bio in a bottle, +1 with Eddie, but I've found the Tetra SafeStart a far better product than the Stability. And then there is also the Turbo....sorry forgot the name but Jason uses it, you might PM him about the name, I've used that in the past also with great results.

[joanr]

Ok, found it. It's called fritz zyme turbo start. Order online most likely won't find it in any LFS. Same thing with the SafeStart, no one seems to carry it in store.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Thanks Joan and Eddie -

It's good to see them swimming and eating again :) Water got cloudy/hazy but I know that is because of lack or beginning of a cycle. pretty happy with the results overall :-)

[joanr]

Try to skip the whole cycling process as much as possible, it's gonna be hard on the recovering fish and a long slow process since you'll need to change so much water to keep parameters ok, the bio will take quite a while to recover. If you can, overnight some of the Fritz Zyme or SafeStart, it will be worth the expense and your bio should be Ok within a week or so. Your fish will thank you....

[tcmemphisbbq]

Well I did have one cycled sponge I put in so I am hoping that will proliferate quickly into the canisters again -

All the fish are doing great in the main display and in the QT except one, a runt green snakeskin, also the weakest of all the fish I have.... he is still eating ok but has always not been "right". Since all the other fish in the main display are doing great except him, I wanna get him OUT asap - the new 6.5" turq has been eating like crazy and when he thinks noone is looking colors up and comes to the front of the 10gal qt. I do NOT wanna move the snakeskin over to qt with the new fish though for fear of the new fish regetting what the snakeskin has in such a tight space....

the new fish has been in QT for 3 weeks now and also went through the same furan-2 regimine as the main display -

See where I am going here? Do you think its safe? Either way the runt has to come out because being the weakest he is still showing that he isnt correct like the other discus in the tank. What I wanna do is put snakeskin in qt and new fish in display to be honest, my gut says yes but......also doubts -

What to do, what to do?

[joanr]

Does the runt have the septic streaks or is he just not progressing like the others? I think sometimes we mis-diagnose Hex and treat with Metro when the fish really has Capillaria. Nothing short of scoping feces will tell for sure. I'm always for the last ditch treatment, my favorite "cure all" being two doses of Clout 4 days apart, it gets any flukes and it contains a medicine which will kill or at least help control cap until the fish's own immune system can handle the load. It just all depends on what his symptoms are now. I would definately QT the little guy from the rest of them, maybe he has worms, maybe not, but when fish are "just not right" there is usually something wrong....have you wormed him yet? I have just finished up with a Levamisole treatment, 2 doses three weeks apart and a Clout treatment, 2x - 4 days apart and I'm seeing a significant improvement with my little Blue Diamond who was facing the back of the tank, not hanging with the others, not eating very well. Today he is eating like a pig again and hanging out with the others and acting like a healthy fish. He had some rather strange poo during the course of these treatments and whatever was in him is out now. I'm a big supporter of routine worming of juvies, especially during the first 6 months. I worm my cats and dogs, so my fish deserve the same...lol.

Oh to answer the QT question, I'd leave the new guys in QT for another week, and pull the little runt and get a small 10 gal for 15 bucks at petsmart and just use a sponge filter and see if you can get it up to speed.

[Eddie]

I would keep the new one in QT another week as suggested and then add 1 of your current discus to the QT tank for another 2 week observation. As far as the green one thats always been sick, I'd cull it.

Take care Tom and glad the group was cured! Its always good to hear about success stories.

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Personally I think the runt has worms, but ive treated with prazi for this while he was in qt, but he has always been the runt, always skinnier and never was as "Correct" as the other fish for the year ive had him......

I will leave the other in qt for another week, will see what I can come up with for the runt til them ;-) ive got a 30 gallon tub I may be able to put him in with air and a heater for a week till the other one is ready for main tank....

Ive thought about culling but the wife is giving me a hard time on that one hehehe -

I am glad that the fish are doing better but ALL the thanks goes to the fine members here like Eddie, Al, JoanR and CHester for thier advice and for helping guys like me out :-) It is VERY appriciated and is why I was happy to contribute to the forum via cash and via ordering my worms from Al :-)

Thanks again!

[Eddie]

Personally I think the runt has worms, but ive treated with prazi for this while he was in qt, but he has always been the runt, always skinnier and never was as "Correct" as the other fish for the year ive had him......

I will leave the other in qt for another week, will see what I can come up with for the runt til them ;-) ive got a 30 gallon tub I may be able to put him in with air and a heater for a week till the other one is ready for main tank....

Ive thought about culling but the wife is giving me a hard time on that one hehehe -

I am glad that the fish are doing better but ALL the thanks goes to the fine members here like Eddie, Al, JoanR and CHester for thier advice and for helping guys like me out :-) It is VERY appriciated and is why I was happy to contribute to the forum via cash and via ordering my worms from Al :-)

Thanks again!

Anytime Tom, its tough and stressful treating sick fish. I had a real bad year last year and man....I think I aged 50 years from it. LOL I had to get schooled up, self study and all, plus alot of top notch information on here from the veterans.

You mentioned treating the runt for worms using Prazi. Prazi is strictly limited to cestodes or tapeworms. Discus can and often carry nematodes which are generally dealt with, using Levimasole/Fenbendazole/Piperazine/Albendazole. There are others but just so you know, you may want to treat him for nematodes.

I hear you about the culling thing, the wife HATES me for it. I'll do it while she is not around. She tells everybody that I am clensing the race. Building only a superior race of fish. I say.......SO! LOL


Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Anytime Tom, its tough and stressful treating sick fish. I had a real bad year last year and man....I think I aged 50 years from it. LOL I had to get schooled up, self study and all, plus alot of top notch information on here from the veterans.

You mentioned treating the runt for worms using Prazi. Prazi is strictly limited to cestodes or tapeworms. Discus can and often carry nematodes which are generally dealt with, using Levimasole/Fenbendazole/Piperazine/Albendazole. There are others but just so you know, you may want to treat him for nematodes.

I hear you about the culling thing, the wife HATES me for it. I'll do it while she is not around. She tells everybody that I am clensing the race. Building only a superior race of fish. I say.......SO! LOL


Eddie


Ahh I didnt know that about the nemotodes, do nemotodes or CAN nemotodes cause scratching or that a symptom of STRICTLY external parasites?
Ive got a group order with David for some dewormer coming first of the month, cant find it locally even at the farmers stores - may try to see if its under a different name....but that is what I suspect though as well....thing is he is the ONLY fish like this and the only runt ive got hehe

[joanr]

You are probably buying the Vermisol from David, which is the Levamisole HCL. That is for nematodes. Very good stuff. But, I think you might try the 2x Clout treatment on the little runt while you are waiting for the Vermisol. Could be just what it needs if it has any capillaria, and you said you had some Clout on hand, right?
Dose in nice clean water at lights out, keep tank dark and about 84 or lower down to 82, lots of air and don't feed but mix in some Epsom Salts for laxative. Then after 24hrs do a total water change and let the fish rest for three days and then repeat the process. See if that helps any. If not, you probably need the Vermisol or get the wife out of the house and cull the poor little guy. Just tell her it died, that's what I tell my hubby, but he knows better....lol.

[Eddie]

Ahh I didnt know that about the nemotodes, do nemotodes or CAN nemotodes cause scratching or that a symptom of STRICTLY external parasites?
Ive got a group order with David for some dewormer coming first of the month, cant find it locally even at the farmers stores - may try to see if its under a different name....but that is what I suspect though as well....thing is he is the ONLY fish like this and the only runt ive got hehe

Great info here Tom.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa091


Scratching can be a number of different things, could be water/parasite/bacteria. Its basically an external irritant. I'd salt dip the fish are return it to a solitary tank for observation.


All the best buddy!

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

joan, yes I have clout- I keep that stuff on hand hehe :-) And yeah I think this one is gonna end up culled - to be honest I have spent twice as much on meds on this fish as the fish itself cost me in the year since ive had it, I coulda bought one of hans 150.00 adults by now hehe - im getting the lev from david cause its hard to find and I wanna keep it on hand since he is kind enough to group order and get good prices :-)

Eddie, thanks for the info/link will definately read up on it...

[tcmemphisbbq]

Well the main tank is till doing GREAT -

The 75 however- I did a 4 day treatment, filled the tank cause they looked alot better, no more red fins etc - readily hungry for food - woke up this morning though and tank temp was at 76, one of the two heaters went out, the hans juvies looked HORRIBLE... black, shedding slime, looked like classic "plague"/"illness" - I quickly drained the tank and while draining added 10 gal or warm water to bring temp up to 80 - put a spare heater in - drained the tank down to 40 gal and did another furan-2 dose as I guess I misread they were better, I know the temp will knock em down but this was not just a temp issue.......

Went home couple hours ago, fish are still alive, water 82, both heaters working...... the kobalt and the flechen are still pretty dark and look VERY bad but are not listless, they are swimming around with the fire red - got enough f-2 for 2 more treatments and then will decide based on what they look like....

Which brings me ultimately to my question hehe - are Juvies HARDER or EASIER in "most" cases to cure than ADULT fish?

Thanks
Tom

[Eddie]

Well the main tank is till doing GREAT -

The 75 however- I did a 4 day treatment, filled the tank cause they looked alot better, no more red fins etc - readily hungry for food - woke up this morning though and tank temp was at 76, one of the two heaters went out, the hans juvies looked HORRIBLE... black, shedding slime, looked like classic "plague"/"illness" - I quickly drained the tank and while draining added 10 gal or warm water to bring temp up to 80 - put a spare heater in - drained the tank down to 40 gal and did another furan-2 dose as I guess I misread they were better, I know the temp will knock em down but this was not just a temp issue.......

Went home couple hours ago, fish are still alive, water 82, both heaters working...... the kobalt and the flechen are still pretty dark and look VERY bad but are not listless, they are swimming around with the fire red - got enough f-2 for 2 more treatments and then will decide based on what they look like....

Which brings me ultimately to my question hehe - are Juvies HARDER or EASIER in "most" cases to cure than ADULT fish?

Thanks
Tom

I find juvies to be less forgiving. Sorry to hear about the set back Tom. Hopefully they can come back around.

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Doing better today, I think it was the TEMP drop in hindsight, cause 24 hours in warm water they colored back up - :)

[keno]

Its great that your fish are getting better, and a great learning experience and great advice by Eddie.

Just wanted to add Ive had great results using Safestart for new/dead bacterial colonies, sounds like you will need it after all this.

[Eddie]

Doing better today, I think it was the TEMP drop in hindsight, cause 24 hours in warm water they colored back up - :)

Sounds promising Tom, keep us updated.


Its great that your fish are getting better, and a great learning experience and great advice by Eddie.

Just wanted to add Ive had great results using Safestart for new/dead bacterial colonies, sounds like you will need it after all this.

Me too, I really like SafeStart over other bacteria's in a bottle. ;)

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

Update -
Two days into "new fish" (that caused all this) being in display - he immediately colored up and while he still shows his stress bars some interacts with all the fish, not hiding at all. I think he is gonna end up being dominate of the tank. My female, gimped fin turq, is already stopping in front of him to get his attention, saw her shake it a little also last night hehe - no fish show any signs of any illness, all eating, still not eating from my hand yet but I am sure that will come back hehe

The whites in the 75 are doing great, im up in the air on the 3 juvies, they eat great and swim around but i see the blue and flechen go dark from time to time and when he does, his skin looks terrible, whitish stuff, but then 30 minutes later will see him swimming around color fine... wierd, figuring the 6 days of furan-2 may have knocked him back, just giving them 35% daily fresh wc right now and theyve been getting some live bw as a treat to get them eating again, which they attack......

All in all - doing good.....

[Eddie]

Sounds real good Tom, real good. Hope that flachen turns around but if not, you definitely did your best and saved all the others. Great work!

Eddie

[tcmemphisbbq]

The 3 juvies in the 75 seem to be getting worse again, I did a 6 day f2 treatment, should I consider doing another? or trying a different AB on them?

Ive gotta do something quick... im hesitant to use f2 again since it didnt do it first time, but I will try it again if yall think it might work -

Thanks
Tom

[Eddie]

The 3 juvies in the 75 seem to be getting worse again, I did a 6 day f2 treatment, should I consider doing another? or trying a different AB on them?

Ive gotta do something quick... im hesitant to use f2 again since it didnt do it first time, but I will try it again if yall think it might work -

Thanks
Tom

Tom, get a hold of some Furanase. Kensfish.com has some under the fungal section. You may have to switch since you did stop the treatment and start back up when the temp dropped. It is another Furan type antibiotic so same stipulations, lights off during treatment. Its super messy but it should do the trick.

http://www.kensfish.com/medicationfungal.html

Make sure you are keeping a good amount of salt in the tank during treatment, to hold down parasites.


Eddie

[joanr]

How bout an oxy-cycline, or TC? Now I have a fish with the red at the base of the pectorals. Came out of nowhere and I thought it was an injury at first. Now not too sure. It's in QT and after 4 days of F2 & salt the red crescent shape at the base of the pec fin is somewhat diminished but not gone. Localized just at that area, no sign of fin rot anywhere. Thinking of switching out the F2 for something else. ?? Sounds similiar to what you have seen Tom. I don't know why one seemingly healthy fish would get this and not the others.

[Eddie]

How bout an oxy-cycline, or TC? Now I have a fish with the red at the base of the pectorals. Came out of nowhere and I thought it was an injury at first. Now not too sure. It's in QT and after 4 days of F2 & salt the red crescent shape at the base of the pec fin is somewhat diminished but not gone. Localized just at that area, no sign of fin rot anywhere. Thinking of switching out the F2 for something else. ?? Sounds similiar to what you have seen Tom. I don't know why one seemingly healthy fish would get this and not the others.

Hey Joan, I'd keep the F-2 going. I've had fish recovering while being in F-2 and still have the redness. Should be good in a few days. ;)

Eddie

[joanr]

What is this anyhow? Bacterial Columnaris or whatever? Why just at the base of the pecs, and why in such pristine water condtions? Where would it come from? I'm really stumped with this latest.

[Eddie]

What is this anyhow? Bacterial Columnaris or whatever? Why just at the base of the pecs, and why in such pristine water condtions? Where would it come from? I'm really stumped with this latest.

Have you checked your water parameters to ensure it is not ammonia/nitrite?

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Has anyone tried a tri-cide neo dip yet on discus followed up with AB's?

[Eddie]

Has anyone tried a tri-cide neo dip yet on discus followed up with AB's?

I've read about it but I guess you would have to have a reason to try it. At the moment, I haven't found too many traditional treatments unhelpful. :o I mean, what is it specifically that you are treating, where you would need it.

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

I don't currently need it, the question was more for future reference. I have used it in the past, with a follow up of anti-biotics with very good results, albeit not on discus.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Yes Joan, base of fins is red sometimes with blood streaks up the fins - but otherwise active - my whites in the 75 which are adults were fine after the first 6 day treatment but I had to treat them anyway cause they are in the same "tank" cause its only divided by 4" of poret - but this morning the skin was looking better on the juvies, i just hope they dont get stunted from this workout - had to save up for a bit to buy those three hans fish hehe

Mine seem to be improving in the 75, the 125 seems fine now - and my little runt in QT is coloring up better since the vermisol bath -

[joanr]

Good to hear they are all improving, guess it just takes a lot of patience and time when these infections strike. My guy with the blood base pecs is looking pretty good this morning, gonna keep him in QT for another few days until it clears entirely.

Eddie, no water params out of the norm, and the tank gets 60% w/c and micron filtering just about daily. My thought is that I had pulled the HOB boxes for their 2 week interval cleaning and something may have dislodged into the water column. But that just doesn't account for just the one fish getting the red. I'm still stumped unless it really was an irritation from the RGD slamming into him in that area 6 nights ago.

[Chester]

Tom,

Whats the status of all this?


Cheers

Chester :)

[tcmemphisbbq]

sorry for not posting sooner, all the fish are and have been fine lately :-)

I ordered furanese but never used it, talked to Dale Jordon on the phone about my plight after they started to seem like they were relapsing and not getting better, he told me to turn temps up HIGH and add 1/2 cup pickling salt per 50gal and dont do anything else..... they got worse the first few days then just as he said on the phone...."you will think they are going to all die and then about the 3rd or 4th day all of the sudden one will get better, then the next and the next" - I did not add any additional meds after my initial furan-2 treatments and they ALL survived and are back to growing and eating like crazy....

Dale and i spoke for a bit about this and he said that sometimes no meds is better in a case like this - we think the new fish brought a pathogen/virus in which the old fish were not used to and it caused them all to "plague" - he mentioned he and someone else I have heard of but cant recall the name studied this back in the 80's and consider it a kind of turn your back disease...one where high temp and ALOT of salt (to prevent parasidic secondary infections) were the best course....

Im not gonna sit here and definatively say the furan 2 didnt work but in my case the fish were still sickly even 2 weeks after the furan 2 treatment but about 5 days after talking to Dale I could see a DRASTIC improvement in ALL fish.....including the pidgeon blood that was floating on its side....

:-) At this time though,, happy to report ALL fish are doing GREAT and the three hans Juvies are over 3.5" now and eat out of my hand.....
:-)

Tom

[joanr]

Great news Tom! Glad you had a good outcome, Dale has some good remedies up his sleave, did he happen to mention if the bath was only for external issues as I recall you thought your fish also had some internal parasites? I think the Furan-2 did help some, it has a delayed reaction and after treatment can take a few more days to see the red pec syndrome clear up. My BS is all cleared up also, happend several days after I used the Furan-2 and not until I used some Aloe Vera in the water so it's hard to say at this point exactly what helped most.