Discus dying faster than I can replace them

[acnuno25]

I swear, I'm going to give up these gorgeous fish and buy goldfish! I cannot seem to keep them alive. My water parameters are nitrates 10 ppm, nitrites 0, ammonia 0, ph 6.4. The water is soft. I have a Fluval canister filter, sand bottom, driftwood and live plants. It's 85 degrees. I do 3 30% water changes a week. They aren't teased. They are fed Hikari blood worms and brine shrimp. I have one pleco and 2 coreys in there - oh and it's a 46 gal bow front. I woke up this morning to 2 dead fish! They were perfectly fine yesterday! I had 6 juvies in there, now I'm down to 4 (and that's down from 8 just last week!)

They are very skittish, and they do spaz out alot. I think I may be losing them due to injury from their fits. Why could they be spazzing out? I am so frustrated, please please please give me ideas.

[John_Nicholson]

First question is where are you getting your fish from? Are they cheap imports, quality imports, from a local breeder, local hobbyist....etc.

-john

[SHAD0W]

Maybe your doing too much for the fish? I think they're spazzing out because they're uncomfortable with the constant changes in the water. I only do one 10% water change a week and my discus are in a tank that people would say is unsuitable for them and with tankmates (clown loach, black ghost knife) that are also "unsuitable" for them and I've not had any problems.

Cut down your water changes and see what happens, you've got nothin' else to lose, right?

[John_Nicholson]

Cutting down on water changes is never the answer.

-john

[diamond_discus]

Cutting down on water changes is never the answer.

-john

+1 ... If I sense something wrong with fishes, I usually do more frequent large WC (knowing that my new water is stable, of course).

If you have a bare bottom hospital tank, I would transfer your fish to that BB tank and do big daily WC. Add some salt to help reduce their stress. In that hospital tank, just add a heater and a sponge filter. Minimize the unknown factors and see if you can isolate down what the cause of the problem.

Good luck.

[Eddie]

Why is your ph 6.5? What is your KH and GH? Do you use RO or is this straight tap?


Eddie

[keno]

What kind of pleco and how big is it? Big plecos will suck on the discus at night possibly killing them. Bristolnose plecos and a few other SMALL ones are ok with discus but not a common pleco.

If the parameters of your water are the same as your tank water, (ie ph temp) then most certainly do not cut back on water changes!

[Chad Hughes]

I'm with Eddie here....


Something is up with your water. I'm not sure what part of the country you are in, but water with a Ph that low is uncommon. Are you running CO2 on your planted tank? If so, shut it off until you get a handle on the discus. Sudden deaths like you are describing points directly to your water.

Any other details that you can share would be very helpful.... What is your FULL setup and maintenance regime? DON'T GIVE UP!

Best wishes!

[ssevasta]

Just a shot in the dark here but are the gills enflamed and are the fish breathing heavily or gasping?

[LizStreithorst]

Sounds like a problem with the water to me, too. Do you age your water or do you do WC from straight tap? If from the tap have you compared the parameters from the tap against water that has been aerated for 24 hrs? Does it contain chlormines?

[acnuno25]

LOL you're right! I have nothing more to lose than 4 fish...maybe I AM messing around with things too much.

[acnuno25]

Why is your ph 6.5? What is your KH and GH? Do you use RO or is this straight tap?


Eddie

The ph is stable at 6.5 straight from the tap....my KH and GH - I don't know, but a reputable breeder (the fish are from a farm in Malaysia and very healthy - that is, until they die on me) told me my hardness is perfect. Overall he said my water quality is excellent! Argh!

[acnuno25]

Sounds like a problem with the water to me, too. Do you age your water or do you do WC from straight tap? If from the tap have you compared the parameters from the tap against water that has been aerated for 24 hrs? Does it contain chlormines?

Straight from tap, as the parameters are excellent according to 2 different LFS's...chloramines are removed with Prime.

[acnuno25]

Just a shot in the dark here but are the gills enflamed and are the fish breathing heavily or gasping?

Gills are never inflamed, and the fish are breathing heavy only as they are dying - about 2 hours - but never gasping.

[rickztahone]

start by aging your water, even if it's only 30%. put a heater in the aging barrel alongside air via air pump. wait 24hrs and change the water. see if your discus react well to that. i must agree, it sounds like a water issue.

[Eddie]

The ph is stable at 6.5 straight from the tap....my KH and GH - I don't know, but a reputable breeder (the fish are from a farm in Malaysia and very healthy - that is, until they die on me) told me my hardness is perfect. Overall he said my water quality is excellent! Argh!

Your hardness is perfect but you don't know your KH or GH? :confused:

[John_Nicholson]

It can only be one of two things.....

1. bad water.
2. sick or hormoned fish.

Healthy fish in good water don't just die.

-john

[Chad Hughes]

It can only be one of two things.....

1. bad water.
2. sick or hormoned fish.

Healthy fish in good water don't just die.

-john

Amen! The fact that they are spazzing out tells me water contaminant. No matter what a LFS tells you, water from one spigot doesn't mean it's the same in another. Something is amiss!

Things that can affect water:

Old pipes
Newly repaired plumbing
Heavy rains
Fertilizers
Pesticides

Just a few things to think about....

Best wishes!

[diamond_discus]

start by aging your water, even if it's only 30%. put a heater in the aging barrel alongside air via air pump. wait 24hrs and change the water. see if your discus react well to that. i must agree, it sounds like a water issue.

Agree ... see this long thread here : http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77419

You probably need to age your water.

[gwrace]

Cutting down on water changes is never the answer.

-john

It is if there is something bad in your replacement water. So many variables in aquarium setups and water conditions no blanket statements can be made here.

[acnuno25]

Your hardness is perfect but you don't know your KH or GH? :confused:

LOL I know, that sounded stupid - but I've had it tested by 2 different LFS's on several different occasions....

[Eddie]

LOL I know, that sounded stupid - but I've had it tested by 2 different LFS's on several different occasions....

No not stupid, just wasn't sure about the readings. If the LFS tested it, they should have given you the readings for KH and GH. Perfect water for one type of fish, might not be perfect for another. :o


Eddie

[acnuno25]

Maybe your doing too much for the fish? I think they're spazzing out because they're uncomfortable with the constant changes in the water. I only do one 10% water change a week and my discus are in a tank that people would say is unsuitable for them and with tankmates (clown loach, black ghost knife) that are also "unsuitable" for them and I've not had any problems.

Cut down your water changes and see what happens, you've got nothin' else to lose, right?

You know, come to think of it, these fish are dying AFTER frequent water changes...I admit I did go a stretch of a week and a half without changing it, and they did seem happier than ever, bobbing up and down. I don't have the room nor time to age the water in a barrel - is there another way to condition the water?? i.e. a chemical conditioner? Any certain brand? AND...are adults more resiliant than juvies - should I buy 2 or 3 adults rather than several juvies?? I really do love discus....

[Chad Hughes]

I'd recommend using a large carbon filter for your tap water changes. they can be purchased at home depot, but you can probably get a better price by checking some on line sources. I filter all of my water through AT LEAST a carbon block filter.

Hope that helps!

[keno]

If you dont have the room or the time to give your discus the proper water perhaps it is time to evaluate your decision to keep discus.

These fish require clean, stable, fresh water, if you cant supply that then discus will become stressed, sick and die.

I also filter my water thru a 5micron filter that removes sediment, 1 micron carbon block that removes chorline, and .5 micron carbon block that removes heavy metals and vocs(nasty organic compounds), store it for 24 hours.

I learned long ago after a die off because i was changing water straight from the tap, the water company had repaired a water main and flushed the system with God knows what, lost really good discus, since then I never have taken a chance with my water, i always filter it and store it for a day.

[LizStreithorst]

PH swings will happen regardless of a carbon block. Aeration is the only way to stabilize the pH. there are many creative ways to set up a water storage continer. You can even buy a big drum, paint it decorativly and put a plant on top. Search around the forum. You will find many ideas.

[Chad Hughes]

PH swings will happen regardless of a carbon block. Aeration is the only way to stabilize the pH. there are many creative ways to set up a water storage continer. You can even buy a big drum, paint it decorativly and put a plant on top. Search around the forum. You will find many ideas.

Very true..... If it's a Ph swing that we are dealing with here. We need some test results I think!

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

Good read

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77419

[DISCUS USA]

Are the group of 8 discus same strain? or mixed?

Reason i ask if the same or mixed is because maybe you were not told or told but ignored the sellers advice to quarentine each strain seperately for few weeks before mixing them together in same tank..

[acnuno25]

If you dont have the room or the time to give your discus the proper water perhaps it is time to evaluate your decision to keep discus.

These fish require clean, stable, fresh water, if you cant supply that then discus will become stressed, sick and die.

I also filter my water thru a 5micron filter that removes sediment, 1 micron carbon block that removes chorline, and .5 micron carbon block that removes heavy metals and vocs(nasty organic compounds), store it for 24 hours.

I learned long ago after a die off because i was changing water straight from the tap, the water company had repaired a water main and flushed the system with God knows what, lost really good discus, since then I never have taken a chance with my water, i always filter it and store it for a day.


I've been thinking the same thing, that maybe I'm not cut out for discus...

[acnuno25]

PH swings will happen regardless of a carbon block. Aeration is the only way to stabilize the pH. there are many creative ways to set up a water storage continer. You can even buy a big drum, paint it decorativly and put a plant on top. Search around the forum. You will find many ideas.


Hmmm...my ph is stable, I do test it daily, at 6.4. Straight from the tap is also at 6.4. I do use light aeration.

Would PH swings be what is causing them to spaz out and jump (thus hurting and killing themselves?)

[diamond_discus]

Wow, where are you at ? Straight tap water is 6.4 ? kinda low ..
Tap water here in Los Angeles is > 8.2

[acnuno25]

Wow, where are you at ? Straight tap water is 6.4 ? kinda low ..
Tap water here in Los Angeles is > 8.2

I'm in Folsom, CA. Not in the prison, though....:D

[hedut]

do you use right amount prime? even my self like to put extra dose prime for my fish:D:D:D. if you not using BB may be should do mo wc or wc with large amount;)

[LizStreithorst]

Hmmm...my ph is stable, I do test it daily, at 6.4. Straight from the tap is also at 6.4. I do use light aeration.

Would PH swings be what is causing them to spaz out and jump (thus hurting and killing themselves?)

Nope. It's not that. You should be able to go straight from the tap through a carbon block to the tank, unless perhaps you have cholamines. I'm not sure that the carbon will neutralize them. Someone else will know.

Sorry.I'm no help. I'm at a loss.

[DISCUS USA]

I own no meter dont check water for ph hardness kh none that nonsense ,, feed 3 times or 4 a day total time is about 8 minutes a day feeding and every 2 or 3 days 50 % water change takes me 5 minutes for that each time.. keep it simple this just a hobby supposed be enjoyable not a time & money consuming job..

[LizStreithorst]

I own no meter dont check water for ph hardness kh none that nonsense ,, feed 3 times or 4 a day total time is about 8 minutes a day feeding and every 2 or 3 days 50 % water change takes me 5 minutes for that each time.. keep it simple this just a hobby supposed be enjoyable not a time & money consuming job..

You're very lucky. You live on Long Island. You have the best water ever. You don't need to test. Fish will breed in it like rabbits. Acnuno's water sounds just as good, but something is wrong somewhere and the most likely culprit is water quality. What do you suggest he do to keep his fish from spazzing out and comitting suicide?

[mmorris]

Maybe it's not the water. How long have you had the fish? Did you get all 8 at once? When you say they are skittish and spaz out, what do you mean? Are they flashing? Dark in color? Any sign of slime coat? Any other symptoms? Do you have access to a microscope?

[moik]

Not one thing was mentioned about the incoming water temp...A picture of your tank set up would help alot..I breifly gazed through the thread..

[gixeron1wheel]

I would think there's something with the water...Is the water Ph tested correctly "out of the tap" because you really can't get an acurate reading right out of the tap. Let's say that your low Ph reading is correct...You really need to know what your Kh is because certain Ph levels with certain Kh levels can create a toxic water condition for the fish.

I would get some accurate test results and go from there. You may have to bring that Ph up if that is the correct reading. Another thing, I would make sure that your tank is getting enough oxygen too. Get a good test kit and check your readings with a couple different lfs readings.

Do you run a CO2 system? Are you using a good de-clorinator such as Prime?

[acnuno25]

Maybe it's not the water. How long have you had the fish? Did you get all 8 at once? When you say they are skittish and spaz out, what do you mean? Are they flashing? Dark in color? Any sign of slime coat? Any other symptoms? Do you have access to a microscope?

Well, all fish have been purchased at different times (because I'm constantly replacing dead ones) from a LFS that gets their fish from a farm in Malaysia. They are in gorgeous condition when I bring them home, no signs of disease at all. What they do is frighten very easily and bolt around the tank, banging into the sides and jumping into the top - I've even lost one because it jumped out of the little narrow slit where my filter equipment, etc. enters the tank! (horrifying to come home to). I've since covered the slit with a screen. But my suspicion is that their deaths are so sudden, they may be killing themselves...there isn't any flashing behavior, their color is good (unless they spaz out, then they darken), no slime coat! What the heck is wrong! :mad:

[acnuno25]

Not one thing was mentioned about the incoming water temp...A picture of your tank set up would help alot..I breifly gazed through the thread..

If you don't mind, or if someone else could help me, tell me how to post a photo? I'm not very technical but I sure would love to show everyone what I've got going on....

[acnuno25]

I would think there's something with the water...Is the water Ph tested correctly "out of the tap" because you really can't get an acurate reading right out of the tap. Let's say that your low Ph reading is correct...You really need to know what your Kh is because certain Ph levels with certain Kh levels can create a toxic water condition for the fish.

I would get some accurate test results and go from there. You may have to bring that Ph up if that is the correct reading. Another thing, I would make sure that your tank is getting enough oxygen too. Get a good test kit and check your readings with a couple different lfs readings.

Do you run a CO2 system? Are you using a good de-clorinator such as Prime?

Ah hah...maybe we're onto something there...my ph is low - 6.4 out of the tap and stays steady and the water is very soft. Could it be too soft? And how much aeration do discus need? This isn't something I read about - I've got my pump set at a lower setting, the same that I used on my angels, maybe this isn't enough for the discus?

No CO2, using Prime (but going to start using 2 capfuls for my 46 gal as per advice from another hobbyist here).

[mmorris]

Not one thing was mentioned about the incoming water temp....

Good point, Moik. What is the temperature of the incoming water when you do a wc?

[acnuno25]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/picture.php?albumid=199&pictureid=1521

Hope this works...it's a picture of my setup....

[mmorris]

Are you using cold water when you do a wc?

[acnuno25]

I also have an algae problem....but my nitrates are at 10 ppm and nitrites are at 0. I'm beginning to think that I have no business keeping discus.

[acnuno25]

Are you using cold water when you do a wc?

No, I come within 1-2 degrees (try to err on the warm side) of the tank temperature. I use a python.

[moik]

Gas in the sand???? Do you use a canister /HOB filter???Do you turn your filter off for any long periods of time then turn it back on????

[moik]

Sadly to say this is the learning process..No matter how long you have discus or any other fish,,you will eventually have issues....This situation is on the extreme side of the spectrum..Lets figure the problem out and go from there.
I also have an algae problem....but my nitrates are at 10 ppm and nitrites are at 0. I'm beginning to think that I have no business keeping discus.

[Eddie]

You should be using one cap of prime for a 46 gallon and if the temp is 86F or over, you only need half a cap. ;)


Eddie

[acnuno25]

Gas in the sand???? Do you use a canister /HOB filter???Do you turn your filter off for any long periods of time then turn it back on????

I use a Rena Filstar 3 canister, no carbon...the filter only goes off for about 1/2 hour during the water changes (3x weekly)...is that too long for them?

[acnuno25]

Gas in the sand???? Do you use a canister /HOB filter???Do you turn your filter off for any long periods of time then turn it back on????


Sadly to say this is the learning process..No matter how long you have discus or any other fish,,you will eventually have issues....This situation is on the extreme side of the spectrum..Lets figure the problem out and go from there.

Thank you for your words of encouragement, good to know I'm not a loser... :D

[gixeron1wheel]

I wouldn't say that your pH of 6.4 is "too soft", I am just wondering what the KH is. The two elements, if not balanced can cause a toxic environment for fish. These elements have a direct efect on the CO2 level of your tank(even if you are not adding CO2) and if not sufficiently oxygenated, could be real bad.

I stay at 6.8 even if I have to bring it up to 6.8. I keep my tanks at a 6.8 because my KH is a 4. Although you would think that a lower pH is better for the fish, it's not healthy for my tanks pH to drop below 6.8.

I will try to find a site that provides this information more in depth. I'm not an expert here but I AM "information addict". I read and read and read on this site and many others. Everything that I have learned and practice has been proven correct for my tanks. Best advice I can give is to get good readings on your water quality and figure what you need to do to balance it and stay with it...Keep it simple. If you know you are starting with healthy fish, I still think something is toxic.

[gixeron1wheel]

I just read that you are also having an alge problem...that is the first sign in my tank that my pH is too low and CO2 is up! And like I said earlier, I have a safe range to maintain. First thing I would do is get a good air supply in there. Then, go get yourself a good test kit and get balanced.

I don't think your fish are getting enough oxygen. Sounds simple but it's a common problem. Alge thrives in CO2 rich water, fish don't.

If you still have a problem and water is good, I would next try bare-bottom to keep fish healthy. The next thing to look at (AFTER WATER QUALITY) is an outside contamination issue...from the sand to everything in the tank(hey, anything is possible). This is all on the assumption that you are getting healthy fish, but regardless you still need the water right first.

[gixeron1wheel]

I found this simple tool online http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm download the calculator at the bottom of this page and refer to the chart on it...as you see how much higher the CO2 levels are at under the pH column of your 6.4, now you can see the drastic jump of each number of the KH....without enough oxygen and water surface aggitation your fish could be getting CO2 poisoned.

Get your KH reading and adjust your pH!
I would say that anything over a CO2 level of 24ish is getting toxic. This means with your pH at 6.4, the KH shouldn't be above a 2...

[Yassmeena]

Hmmm... maybe I don't know enough about CO2 to comment, but if the OP is losing discus after a WC, doesn't that point away from the problem being too much CO2, as new water would dilute the CO2 concentration in the tank?

Also, the OP stated that the discus seemed happiest when he/she went without WCs for a week.

A couple questions...

How do they behave in between WCs aside from being skittish? Did you notice any lesions, darkening, slimecoat shedding?

How long were they in your possession before they died?

Also, did they die at the same time? If not, what was the time interval between their deaths, and between the WCs and the deaths?

I was experiencing many losses after WCs and there's a really great thread discussing it. It was posted two times in this thread. Check it out if you have a chance... There's a particularly great article linked by a poster who typed in purple font. it discussing nitrogen embolism as a cause of death after WCs.

Lastly, what is the gallon rating on your air pump? If it's not adequate for your tank, you should strongly consider getting a new one.

Yasmin

[April]

id say your ph is swinging..up down..up down..crash..up ...wc..down..after a day or so..if they get skittish usually ph is falling..filter not keeping up..soft water has no buffering..happens herein vancouver..so much rain..no minerals.
get some crushed coral or aragonite and buffer. put it in the filter..to keep your ph stable and up. youd be better to go with 7 ph than 6.5. helps them grow also.
check your ph before you do wc..out of the tap..and after..and after a day or two..see whats going on. do wc daily..smaller ones..keep it even i bet things will settle down. report back.

[acnuno25]

Good point, Moik. What is the temperature of the incoming water when you do a wc?

It's within 1-2 degrees of 85 - same as in the tank. I use a thermometor to gauge this, as I know temperature is reallllllly important to discus.

[acnuno25]

id say your ph is swinging..up down..up down..crash..up ...wc..down..after a day or so..if they get skittish usually ph is falling..filter not keeping up..soft water has no buffering..happens herein vancouver..so much rain..no minerals.
get some crushed coral or aragonite and buffer. put it in the filter..to keep your ph stable and up. youd be better to go with 7 ph than 6.5. helps them grow also.
check your ph before you do wc..out of the tap..and after..and after a day or two..see whats going on. do wc daily..smaller ones..keep it even i bet things will settle down. report back.

Can the ph fluctuate that much throughout just the day? Because I do check it daily, at the same time each day.....that's something I didn't know!

[acnuno25]

Hmmm... maybe I don't know enough about CO2 to comment, but if the OP is losing discus after a WC, doesn't that point away from the problem being too much CO2, as new water would dilute the CO2 concentration in the tank?

Also, the OP stated that the discus seemed happiest when he/she went without WCs for a week.

A couple questions...

How do they behave in between WCs aside from being skittish? Did you notice any lesions, darkening, slimecoat shedding?

How long were they in your possession before they died?

Also, did they die at the same time? If not, what was the time interval between their deaths, and between the WCs and the deaths?

I was experiencing many losses after WCs and there's a really great thread discussing it. It was posted two times in this thread. Check it out if you have a chance... There's a particularly great article linked by a poster who typed in purple font. it discussing nitrogen embolism as a cause of death after WCs.

Lastly, what is the gallon rating on your air pump? If it's not adequate for your tank, you should strongly consider getting a new one.

Yasmin

OK, no lesions/slimecoat shedding, they look absolutely healthy as all get out! Shoot! No darkening except at feeding time, which is normal - may the best win, you know :)

I've only managed to keep 2 alive for longer than a period of a month, otherwise it's been a revolving door...

And since I originally posted I've been thinking, and it IS after WC that I'm having deaths. The corpses look like very healthy dead fish...make sense? And twice I've lost 2 fish at a time the morning after a WC. Horrifying to wake up to.

I'm not sure what the gallon rating is on my air pump, but it's the second to largest I could buy, and circulates extremely well. Now, I have had it turned down to help still the water - but I was experiencing fish loss before that as well.

Lastly, do you know where I can find that link about WC's? I would absolutely love to read it...

Angela

[acnuno25]

I just read that you are also having an alge problem...that is the first sign in my tank that my pH is too low and CO2 is up! And like I said earlier, I have a safe range to maintain. First thing I would do is get a good air supply in there. Then, go get yourself a good test kit and get balanced.

I don't think your fish are getting enough oxygen. Sounds simple but it's a common problem. Alge thrives in CO2 rich water, fish don't.

If you still have a problem and water is good, I would next try bare-bottom to keep fish healthy. The next thing to look at (AFTER WATER QUALITY) is an outside contamination issue...from the sand to everything in the tank(hey, anything is possible). This is all on the assumption that you are getting healthy fish, but regardless you still need the water right first.

AH HAH....I think we're getting somewhere - I have had my air pump turned down!! I wanted to increase the CO2 for my plants, and now I have an algae problem and dead fish...that, and I think my tap water may have too many nutrients....

[Rod]

No, I come within 1-2 degrees (try to err on the warm side) of the tank temperature. I use a python.

I assume you are getting your warm water from a hot water tank, in combination with acidic tapwater your water may have elivated heavy metals in it. Many hot water tanks use copper and other metals in them and possibly these metals are contaminating the water due to the acidic nature of the water in combination with the time spent in the hot water tank. Personally i'd set up a water drum or similar, fill it using cold tap water, then heat and aerate.

[diamond_discus]

AH HAH....I think we're getting somewhere - I have had my air pump turned down!! I wanted to increase the CO2 for my plants, and now I have an algae problem and dead fish...that, and I think my tap water may have too many nutrients....

Well, that's the reason why I refuse to setup any show tank .. too much work to maintain for both the plants and the fish ...

With a barebottom tank, it's easy to clean and less risk factor .. It's either the water or the food (after QT the fish, of course).

Many of my friends kept telling me that all my tanks looks so boring .. No decoration .. except sponge and ugly cone (although I am going to change that with Barb's cone soon). But hey, discus are too expensive to lose by unknown factors ...

So I admire and applause those who can keep a show tank successfully. But for me, keeping it simple is the priority .. and I already have my hands full for daily big water change.

Just my personal choice, I guess. ;)

[Yiannisk]

Mine too i do not believe that discus thrive in a planted tank in a tank that simulates amazon yes but in a planted no IMO, they are lazy eaters food is lost in between the plants rottens and pollutes the water for one reason plus fertilizers etc

[RodneyL001]

I hope one of the suggestions you have received solves your problem. Don't give up on the discus. I would like to make a suggestion. You were correct when you noted that adult fish would be easier to keep. Also try to keep some cheaper fish for awhile, like sword tails. That may tell you if your water is toxic. I had to step away from discus when I first started keeping them. I found I was trying to hard, doing too many funky things with my water. Keeping your water constant is much more important than doing too much adjusting trying to get it perfect. Try keeping a couple of cheap fish, if they make it your water is probably ok, stay with adult fish when you restock, if you lose more fish, and try a different lfs, and most important, "keep it simple. . ."