More to "Discus dying faster than I can buy"

[acnuno25]

OK all yesterday I had 4 healthy juvies. Then...I did a 40% WC last night, balanced my ph to 6.8 (the tank was 6.8 as is my tap), added prime, the temperature stayed at 85 degrees (measured it with the thermometer), no ammonia/nitrites and nitrates below 10ppm. I kept the filter off for about 1/2 hour (ran the air and heater) after the WC, and when adding water stayed at the surface with my python using a low flow to avoid air.

SO I woke up this a.m. to 3 healthy juvies and one headstanding. She ate a bit (one or 2 brine shrimp, wanted to give her something easy on the belly) but did not right herself to do so. I tested the PH again, it is solid at 6.8.

In a nutshell, I am going to go home to another dead fish. What in the heck am I doing wrong? :(

Also, just a thought...are older fish easier than juvies? Maybe I should try a few of those instead of several juvies?? :confused:

[hedut]

OK all yesterday I had 4 healthy juvies. Then...I did a 40% WC last night, balanced my ph to 6.8 (the tank was 6.8 as is my tap), added prime, the temperature stayed at 85 degrees (measured it with the thermometer), no ammonia/nitrites and nitrates below 10ppm. I kept the filter off for about 1/2 hour (ran the air and heater) after the WC, and when adding water stayed at the surface with my python using a low flow to avoid air.

SO I woke up this a.m. to 3 healthy juvies and one headstanding. She ate a bit (one or 2 brine shrimp, wanted to give her something easy on the belly) but did not right herself to do so. I tested the PH again, it is solid at 6.8.

In a nutshell, I am going to go home to another dead fish. What in the heck am I doing wrong? :(

Also, just a thought...are older fish easier than juvies? Maybe I should try a few of those instead of several juvies?? :confused:

Question : when you WC did you put water first and full snd you put prime or you put prime first than water? Stituation like that ussualy water problem

[DerekFF]

Is it a barebottom tank? And what do you normally feed?

[April]

did you feed them a meal of flake food after the wc? before bed? is it the pig of the bunch?

[acnuno25]

Question : when you WC did you put water first and full snd you put prime or you put prime first than water? Stituation like that ussualy water problem

I put water first, then prime.....

[acnuno25]

Is it a barebottom tank? And what do you normally feed?

One inch layer of sand, I feed blood worms and brine shrimp alternately...(frozen, thawed out in aquarium water)

[acnuno25]

did you feed them a meal of flake food after the wc? before bed? is it the pig of the bunch?

No, not the pig, one of the more finicky eaters. I don't feed flake food, as I can never get them to eat it....

[Chad Hughes]

You might want to try prime first then water. You are likely blasting your fish with cholrine and possibly chloramine. Stress like this will cause exactly what you are seeing. I know it's not always possible, but I like to mix the water with conditioner in a large conatiner (like a 40 gallon trash can) and then add it to the tank. Since that is not always an option, putting prime in the tank first then adding tap works for many people here.

Hope that helps!

[acnuno25]

You might want to try prime first then water. You are likely blasting your fish with cholrine and possibly chloramine. Stress like this will cause exactly what you are seeing. I know it's not always possible, but I like to mix the water with conditioner in a large conatiner (like a 40 gallon trash can) and then add it to the tank. Since that is not always an option, putting prime in the tank first then adding tap works for many people here.

Hope that helps!

I never thought that would make a big difference, I'll try it......

[hedut]

I never thought that would make a big difference, I'll try it......

IT VERY BIG DIFFERENCE budy;), watch when you put prime first fish will not stress that much ;)

[diamond_discus]

Do you have another tank that you can use as a barebottom tank ?
With just a few fish, you can go with a smaller tank with a sponge filter.
Aged your water with a heater.
Add prime first before you add your aged water.
Limit to only one food source.

Let's see what happen .. Too many unknown factors .. Something is wrong with the water .. You just need to start eliminate some of those unknown factors ..

In general, adult fish is much stronger than juv ... But I think we really need to figure out the problem first, before spend anymore money on more fish.

[darkknight87]

You might want to try prime first then water. You are likely blasting your fish with cholrine and possibly chloramine. Stress like this will cause exactly what you are seeing. I know it's not always possible, but I like to mix the water with conditioner in a large conatiner (like a 40 gallon trash can) and then add it to the tank. Since that is not always an option, putting prime in the tank first then adding tap works for many people here.

Hope that helps!

Wow, I did know that. THat could be very useful for my water changes in my 150 gallon tank. Thanks for the info

[gixeron1wheel]

Wow, I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble. As a matter of fact, I was thinking of you and your trouble just the other day when I was at Home Depot. I was in the area of the store where they have water filters and I was looking at a tap water test kit. I was reading the package with the elements tested and it has everything for our aquarium puposes plus bacteria, I'm not sure but I think it might be someting that you fill and drop it in the mail and get the results. It was about $10.

As far as the Prime, I use a Pyhton to clean all of my tanks(50% water change on tank 1 planted 54 corner with juvie discus, 50% water change on tank 2 is a 38 BB that has two younger adults with their first batch of fry attached to Mom and Dad. Yep! water from the tap to the fry, and 30% water change on my third tank which is a 90 African Malawi reef) But, anyway, I clean, add a capful of prime to each and then fill tanks right out of tap, adjusting temp down for Malawi tank. I think that I use roughly twice as much Prime then what the directions call for, but I just feel safer because I KNOW my water contains Cloramine since my wife works for the local water authority. I have heard all kinds of horror stories about stuff in public water, from heavy metals to dead animals in the reservoir which made the local news. Dead organic debris in the water will cause high nitrate levels so imagine a dead deer. Yuck!
I do add Prime before refilling with tap water.

Have you had a chance to get a test kit with pH, KH, GH, Nitrates, Ammonia, Nitrites, Chlorine? Since my tanks are stable without any issues, I test all of these elements once a month. When I see a problem or I set up a new tank, I test daily for a week or so then every other day for a week or so and I keep records(cool app on the iphone). I also use a Milwakee eletronic pH monitor daily which I love!


I still believe there is something toxic in your water/tank and I wouldn't get any new discus until resolved. Did you think about a BB tank? I had my planted tank way established before adding the discus. Planted tanks are a challenge in themselves. Do you add fertilizers for your plants? Carbon in your filter? I think you posted this, but what type of filtration again?

Another thing you may want to think about is a RO water filter? You can get them on ebay for $150 but get advice from someone here on that.


I know these problems suck and you want to get through it asap, but don't give up! You are really are gaining a great deal of knowledge and experience.

[diamond_discus]

I still the easiest way to figure this problem is to go barebottom tank .... Minimize the # of problem .. filters, driftwood, plants, sand, tankmates, water, food .. I wouldn't risk losing anymore discus by doing trial and error ... Go back to the basic, just empty tank with heater and sponge filter. If you have multiple tanks, don't share the same WC equipment.

[Yassmeena]

Do you have another tank that you can use as a barebottom tank ?
With just a few fish, you can go with a smaller tank with a sponge filter.
Aged your water with a heater.
Add prime first before you add your aged water.
Limit to only one food source.

Let's see what happen .. Too many unknown factors .. Something is wrong with the water .. You just need to start eliminate some of those unknown factors ..

In general, adult fish is much stronger than juv ... But I think we really need to figure out the problem first, before spend anymore money on more fish.

Hi Angela,

I totally agree with Larry that you need to experimentally run a process of elimination. His suggestion is dead on, but if for some reason you can't do that, at least go with my suggestions below as a second best.

You did a 40% WC, which is quite large considering that your water is suspect...

It seems they die after WCs. I recommend you do what we discussed over the PM, and do no more than 15% WC every day. Cut down feedings to just 2 per day, and don't worry about their growth bc now their survival is more important.

Second, leaving the python floating at the water surface during a fill is not sufficient in my experience. Hoist it against the lid so the water falls a couple inches from the python to the water surface. I actually hold my python 12 inches away from the surface everyday and since it's a small %WC it goes by a lot faster.

Third, definately you need to add the prime before you add the water. That is very essential.

Fourth, don't turn the filter on for atleast 1/2 hr after the WC.

Sorry for being so explicit, but you really need to commit to this method for atleast 2 weeks in my opinion.

What is that Einstein says, something to the effect that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result... I'm not calling you insane, :p just suggesting that you need to actively make changes, if only to experiementally determine the cause.

GL!

Yasmin

[acnuno25]

Wow, I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble. As a matter of fact, I was thinking of you and your trouble just the other day when I was at Home Depot. I was in the area of the store where they have water filters and I was looking at a tap water test kit. I was reading the package with the elements tested and it has everything for our aquarium puposes plus bacteria, I'm not sure but I think it might be someting that you fill and drop it in the mail and get the results. It was about $10.

As far as the Prime, I use a Pyhton to clean all of my tanks(50% water change on tank 1 planted 54 corner with juvie discus, 50% water change on tank 2 is a 38 BB that has two younger adults with their first batch of fry attached to Mom and Dad. Yep! water from the tap to the fry, and 30% water change on my third tank which is a 90 African Malawi reef) But, anyway, I clean, add a capful of prime to each and then fill tanks right out of tap, adjusting temp down for Malawi tank. I think that I use roughly twice as much Prime then what the directions call for, but I just feel safer because I KNOW my water contains Cloramine since my wife works for the local water authority. I have heard all kinds of horror stories about stuff in public water, from heavy metals to dead animals in the reservoir which made the local news. Dead organic debris in the water will cause high nitrate levels so imagine a dead deer. Yuck!
I do add Prime before refilling with tap water.

Have you had a chance to get a test kit with pH, KH, GH, Nitrates, Ammonia, Nitrites, Chlorine? Since my tanks are stable without any issues, I test all of these elements once a month. When I see a problem or I set up a new tank, I test daily for a week or so then every other day for a week or so and I keep records(cool app on the iphone). I also use a Milwakee eletronic pH monitor daily which I love!


I still believe there is something toxic in your water/tank and I wouldn't get any new discus until resolved. Did you think about a BB tank? I had my planted tank way established before adding the discus. Planted tanks are a challenge in themselves. Do you add fertilizers for your plants? Carbon in your filter? I think you posted this, but what type of filtration again?

Another thing you may want to think about is a RO water filter? You can get them on ebay for $150 but get advice from someone here on that.


I know these problems suck and you want to get through it asap, but don't give up! You are really are gaining a great deal of knowledge and experience.

Thank you so much for your post...my test kit is for ph, nitrates, nitrites and ammonia only. I'm going to buy one of the Home Depot ones that you are speaking about tomorrow and see if I can get to the bottom of this. One common factor from all posts is "WATER PROBLEM". I'll keep you posted....

[acnuno25]

Hi Angela,

I totally agree with Larry that you need to experimentally run a process of elimination. His suggestion is dead on, but if for some reason you can't do that, at least go with my suggestions below as a second best.

You did a 40% WC, which is quite large considering that your water is suspect...

It seems they die after WCs. I recommend you do what we discussed over the PM, and do no more than 15% WC every day. Cut down feedings to just 2 per day, and don't worry about their growth bc now their survival is more important.

Second, leaving the python floating at the water surface during a fill is not sufficient in my experience. Hoist it against the lid so the water falls a couple inches from the python to the water surface. I actually hold my python 12 inches away from the surface everyday and since it's a small %WC it goes by a lot faster.

Third, definately you need to add the prime before you add the water. That is very essential.

Fourth, don't turn the filter on for atleast 1/2 hr after the WC.

Sorry for being so explicit, but you really need to commit to this method for atleast 2 weeks in my opinion.

What is that Einstein says, something to the effect that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result... I'm not calling you insane, :p just suggesting that you need to actively make changes, if only to experiementally determine the cause.

GL!

Yasmin

Yasmin,

Thank you so much for responding again to me. I'm going to try the smaller water changes that you recommend, as I suspect that I am taking too much of the "aged" water out at a time. I'm also going to start feeding them only brine shrimp - it's what they seem to enjoy most - and I am DEFINITELY going to use some good old fashioned common sense and add Prime BEFORE adding tap. I think your PM is right on the money, and by testing water, Prime, smaller more frequent water changes and one food source I am going to eliminate alot of guesswork. Say a prayer for us!

Angela

[Yassmeena]

Yasmin,

Thank you so much for responding again to me. I'm going to try the smaller water changes that you recommend, as I suspect that I am taking too much of the "aged" water out at a time. I'm also going to start feeding them only brine shrimp - it's what they seem to enjoy most - and I am DEFINITELY going to use some good old fashioned common sense and add Prime BEFORE adding tap. I think your PM is right on the money, and by testing water, Prime, smaller more frequent water changes and one food source I am going to eliminate alot of guesswork. Say a prayer for us!

Angela

I think it would help you to make this equation: water = poison.

It's opposite of what we normally like to think, but sometimes it is the case.

Just be consistent. Don't be tempted to give them a large amount clean water, because it's more like giving them a larger dose of "poison".

I know it sounds dramatic, but it might help to wrap your mind around this contra-intuitive idea.

HTH!

Yasmin

PS - Try to hold the hose above the water so it splashes in.

[mmorris]

I think it would help you to make this equation: water = poison.


:confused:

[mmorris]

I think we are beating ourselves about the head with this water thing now. John asked you where you got your discus and you said the lfs, a generally very unlikely place to get healthy discus. I don't know how long you had them, but you have been a member of this forum for two months now and your early posts suggest you are new to discus. It would be useful if you would give a very specific time-line as to purchases ie.; I bought 6 two months ago, one died after two weeks, I purchased another the week after, one of the original ones died a few days later...

[diamond_discus]

I think it would help you to make this equation: water = poison.


Huh ? :confused: For my fish, clean water is heaven to them .. The more WC and the more frequent WC, the more happy my fishes would be .. Perhaps the situation is different for planted tanks ?

[Chad Hughes]

I think the real issue here is the lack of CONDITIONED water being added to the tank. Before the OP gets carried away with a bunch of massive changes to setup and routine, I'd recommend just using CONDITIONED tap water and see what that does. Likely the problem will be resolved. We all know that straight tap in to a tank without conditioner kills fish.

Best wishes!

[mmorris]

Also, how did you cycle the tank? I suspect a lot of people use a python directly from tap to tank and then add the conditioner to the tank. I don't advise doing that, of course.

[keno]

Chad the OP was given this advice all along to store the water and heat it. Have you ever drained your hot water tank and see what comes out? heavy metals could be at work here posiening your fish, along with a host of other problems that have been discussed. Please take the boards advice to store/age/heat your water.

People that are advising you have been down this road before and its from personal experience, all the answers are here, there are years and years of experienced discus keepers here giving sound advice. :)

[Chad Hughes]

Chad the OP was given this advice all along to store the water and heat it. Have you ever drained your hot water tank and see what comes out? heavy metals could be at work here posiening your fish, along with a host of other problems that have been discussed. Please take the boards advice to store/age/heat your water.

People that are advising you have been down this road before and its from personal experience, all the answers are here, there are years and years of experienced discus keepers here giving sound advice. :)

Keno,

I certainly agree. Water storage, aging and threating water is the best way to go. That's what I do. I also don't use water from my hot water heater. I also filter all of my water through at least a carbon block filter.... Some people don't have these means and they have to see what they can get away with.

That being said, the fact that the OP doesn't treat their water before adding it to the tank is likely the cause of the problems here. Unless I missed something, this needs to be corrected. Also, in regards to heavy metals, prime takes care of that.... This from the seachem website:

"Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water."

Unless the OP has a huge amount of heavy metals in the water, the standard dose of prime should be sufficient. Double dose is recommended for those with horrible water quality.

One step at a time! :)

[Yassmeena]

Hey all,

I wanted to clarify what I meant by water = poison bc I can understand how that may have disgruntled some...

Angela mentioned that deaths occur after WCs and that during that week without WCs her fish were very happy. Also her and I PMed each other and it seems she may be experiencing supersaturation of her water. She also said she is unable to setup an aging system right now.

Since she's filling from the tap, which is quite possibly supersaturated, she needs to behave as if her water is toxic until she is able to disprove it. If she switches her WC routine to smaller (15%) WCs splashing water in for 2 weeks or more and experiences no losses, then she may want to continue that for another 2 weeks for further confirmation that she has learned that large WCs lead to death.

Of course, undoubtedly good clean water is never poisonous and is always desirable for the health of our discus, and plenty of it!!!

Sorry for the confusion, and I hope now my statement makes more sense. I phrased it that way to help Angela resist the temptation to make large WCs.

I went through what Angela may be going through, and I know how tempting it is to do large WCs. Resisting that temptation required me to be very concious of the fact that it may be the water itself that is killing the fish.

Yasmin

[keno]

Well said Chad. Prime is great stuff, but I still use a 3 stage carbon filter to store my water just to remove all the nasty's, as I wouldnt trust prime to bind all the bad chemicals up.

I hope the OP can isolate the problem because i think most of us have been thru growing pains when first starting out with discus and its no fun.

[diamond_discus]

Well said Chad. Prime is great stuff, but I still use a 3 stage carbon filter to store my water just to remove all the nasty's, as I wouldnt trust prime to bind all the bad chemicals up.

I hope the OP can isolate the problem because i think most of us have been thru growing pains when first starting out with discus and its no fun.

Exactly, we all went thru the painful process of losing fishes ..
This forum is just great that we can share our knowledge and experience.

BTW, what is "OP" ? (sorry for my ignorance). :o

[Chad Hughes]

Yasmin....

Good info! That may improve things!

Best wishes!

[Spardas]

Exactly, we all went thru the painful process of losing fishes ..
This forum is just great that we can share our knowledge and experience.

BTW, what is "OP" ? (sorry for my ignorance). :o

Opening Post/Poster

[acnuno25]

Wow from the OP....I have learned soooooo much by asking my last two questions and a huge THANK YOU from everyone who took the time to answer me!!!

I have decided to go the route of Prime in the tank BEFORE adding water, followed by twice weekly 10% water changes (with my python held high up, of course) and see how that goes. Sadly if this doesn't work, I'll go back to Angels which I have mastered.

Or, not......

LOL! Wish me lots of luck, and I'll be around reading about what everyone else is doing!

Angela

[Yassmeena]

Wow from the OP....I have learned soooooo much by asking my last two questions and a huge THANK YOU from everyone who took the time to answer me!!!

I have decided to go the route of Prime in the tank BEFORE adding water, followed by twice weekly 10% water changes (with my python held high up, of course) and see how that goes. Sadly if this doesn't work, I'll go back to Angels which I have mastered.

Or, not......

LOL! Wish me lots of luck, and I'll be around reading about what everyone else is doing!

Angela

Sounds like a good plan, except I would do daily 10% WCs. Make sure not to exceed the percentage, and to leave the filter off for 1/2 hr.

Keep us posted. If this ends up yielding no deaths, we have to formulate the next stage: determining the best maintenance plan for you.

Remember: fight the urge to change more than 10% at all times during these next 2 weeks.

GL!

Yasmin

[Chad Hughes]

Angela,

I am so happy to hear that you learned a lot fromthe posts to your questions. That's great! Keep us informed on your progress so we can learn from your experience as well! It's always good to hear a success story! :)

Best wishes!