Water changes...

[swank]

Im still trying to figure out why so many water changes.. I read that some of you change 85% of the water everday. WOW! I guess I just dont understand why you have to do it so much. I can understand couple times a week, but if you have a good filteration systems and the fish are happy, fish are growing, why do it so much:confused:??

[wesleydnunder]

Sometimes I wonder that myself, swank. I change 60% 3 times a week for adult RSGs and they're fat and happy. I do dailies for juvies because of the frequent feedings and concomitant waste.

Mark

[swank]

Yea, It does make sense for the juvies, especially if you have alot in a tank.

[keno]

For juvies Im growing out, I give daily water changes, for adults I give 1x a week.

Its worked for me all these years, adults are alot less work than juvies.

[calihawker]

I do it growing out juvies, I feed them 10-12x a day. My planted display tank gets 50% once a week.

[Chad Hughes]

How much you feed and how often you feed drives water changes in most home tanks. Some change 100% of their water due to high stocking densities. So, bottom line, If you feed 10 times a day or have a 55 gallon tank with 100 discus in it, you'll have to change a lot more water much more often.

DISCLAIMER....

I am not recommending housing 100 discus in a 55 gallon tank nor do I recommend feeding 10 times a day.

Best wishes!

[diamond_discus]

Also, if you are feeding beefheart .. you will need to have more frequent WC

[tcyiu]

Im still trying to figure out why so many water changes.. I read that some of you change 85% of the water everday. WOW! I guess I just dont understand why you have to do it so much. I can understand couple times a week, but if you have a good filteration systems and the fish are happy, fish are growing, why do it so much:confused:??

It depends on your objectives. Do you want normal healthy pets, or are you trying to max out the growth? If the former, regular WCs with good bio-filtration is sufficient. If the latter, then hyper-feeding and then large WCs are called for.

Here's why. Firstly, discus evolved in the Amazon basin with constant supply of fresh rain water, that has been scoured of nutrients by the vegetation in the rain forest. Therefore the ancestors of our domesticated discus were best suited to waters that have very little in the way of nitrates. Because some of us are power feeding our youngsters, our growout tanks have a large amount of waste which needs to be removed daily. The waste breaks down before we can get to it, so we need to also remove the small amount of nitrate that is present to provide optimal conditions. (additionally, discus slough slime from their skin. This will also naturally decompose and contributes to the waste).

Secondly, most fish constantly produce chemical signals that get released in the water. Some of these limit the size of fish in cramped quarters so they do not outstrip the available food resources. Our aquariums can be considered cramp quarters. Therefore even with good bio filtration, the hormones would stunt the growth of the fish. Daily WCs will help reduce the concentration of these chemical signals.

All of this is useful to understand why some hobbyists do massive WCs. But does this apply to you individually? Like I said before, it depends on your objectives. Don't let the extreme opinions on either side sway you. Like everything else, the truth is in the middle.

Tim

[Chad Hughes]

For a good before and after of how fish grow under different care regimes, refer to the contest threads. I think you'll find what you are looking for there. At least it's proof of how different methods of care produce beautiful, large adults.

Best wishes!

[swank]

Thanks for the info... It all makes sense... thanks

[Jhhnn]

As has been said, there are lots of variables as to why enthusiasts change or don't change as much water as they do.

Part of it is just the price of tapwater, and how many gallons of tanks one has.

Chad pays a lot for water in San Diego, also has a lot of tanks, so he's had to innovate, use live plants and ozone to get the water quality required for fast growing healthy young discus.

Here in Denver, water is inexpensive, and I don't have a lot of tanks, so changing water isn't much of an expense.

Time is another factor. For people who can't find a way to develop a semi-automated water changing system, it takes a lot of time to change water in multiple large aquaria. I knew that coming back to discus almost a year ago, and set out accordingly, created a system that really minimizes the amount of time required. It wasn't cheap, but it's worth putting time, money, effort and ingenuity up front where it'll do the most good, imo.

Some aquarists even go to continuous drip/overflow systems, which I see as the ultimate, but not really possible in many circumstances. I'd do it if I could.

Once you're really set up to do it, changing water is an easy and extremely reliable way to achieve very good water quality while supplying the large amonts of food growing discus need to become the kind of specimens most of us really want. If you let water quality deteriorate, problems can overwhelm you rather quickly, so I try to stay well within safe parameters. I still test regularly, but the results are entirely predictable and good, which is probably the most important aspect of discus keeping, at least to me... that, and getting healthy vibrant stock from somebody like Kenny Cheung...

[Eddie]

Im still trying to figure out why so many water changes.. I read that some of you change 85% of the water everday. WOW! I guess I just dont understand why you have to do it so much. I can understand couple times a week, but if you have a good filteration systems and the fish are happy, fish are growing, why do it so much:confused:??

Actually more like 100% every day. I don't even really need filtration but its there when I go out of town.

The outcome from constant water changes has been well proven over decades, its nothing new. Sure, somebody grew out a nice fish or 2 in a planted tank but did it reach its full potential. Maybe it did for one person and maybe it didn't for another. ;)

[ExReefer]

Actually more like 100% every day. I don't even really need filtration but its there when I go out of town.

The outcome from constant water changes has been well proven over decades, its nothing new. Sure, somebody grew out a nice fish or 2 in a planted tank but did it reach its full potential. Maybe it did for one person and maybe it didn't for another. ;)

I’m sure there have been people using bare bottom tanks and 100% daily WC’s that grew out less than stellar discus. Assuming they used quality foods, fed often, and their fish were never sick, where did those people go wrong?

The answer is genetics. A major element for growing large discus is genetics. If a fish is genetically limited to 4.5”, all the water changes and feedings in the world cannot change that.

How do you know a discus in a planted tank didn’t reach its full potential? The answer is you don’t. Nobody knows because you can go back in time and start over with the same fish in a bare bottom tank with daily 100% WC’s.

[Chad Hughes]

I’m sure there have been people using bare bottom tanks and 100% daily WC’s that grew out less than stellar discus. Assuming they used quality foods, fed often, and their fish were never sick, where did those people go wrong?

The answer is genetics. A major element for growing large discus is genetics. If a fish is genetically limited to 4.5”, all the water changes and feedings in the world cannot change that.

How do you know a discus in a planted tank didn’t reach its full potential? The answer is you don’t. Nobody knows because you can go back in time and start over with the same fish in a bare bottom tank with daily 100% WC’s.

I like the way you're thinking here! :)

Well said my friend!

[diveshooter]

Actually more like 100% every day. I don't even really need filtration but its there when I go out of town.

The outcome from constant water changes has been well proven over decades, its nothing new. Sure, somebody grew out a nice fish or 2 in a planted tank but did it reach its full potential. Maybe it did for one person and maybe it didn't for another. ;)

As conscientious aquarists we should consider what impact our hobby and /or business has on our natural resourses. I live in Hawaii, and we don't take fresh water for granted. Parts of the big island and Maui counties have been in drought conditions for over 5 years. We need to look for ways to cut down on water use, be it from plant filtration or other means and stop jutsifying what has worked in the past.
Read this for a little insight to the global water shortage problem and note this was written 10 years ago:http://http://www.grist.org/article/brown-watership/

[Eddie]

I’m sure there have been people using bare bottom tanks and 100% daily WC’s that grew out less than stellar discus. Assuming they used quality foods, fed often, and their fish were never sick, where did those people go wrong?

The answer is genetics. A major element for growing large discus is genetics. If a fish is genetically limited to 4.5”, all the water changes and feedings in the world cannot change that.

How do you know a discus in a planted tank didn’t reach its full potential? The answer is you don’t. Nobody knows because you can go back in time and start over with the same fish in a bare bottom tank with daily 100% WC’s.

Even with genetics, every fish has a max potential. Trust me buddy, the proof is in the contest fish. All from the same brood and the contest would already be over if size was the only grading factor. LOL ;)


Eddie

[Scribbles]

IMO there is more than one way to raise discus. There are so many factors that have an influence on wc. I do daily wc of 90-150%. I have 8 adults in a 58 gallon tank and feed 3x a day. These fish crap like water buffalos and I can't believe how dirty it is. The large wc are also removing parasites and pathogens from the water.

Chris

[Chad Hughes]

Even with genetics, every fish has a max potential. Trust me buddy, the proof is in the contest fish. All from the same brood and the contest would already be over if size was the only grading factor. LOL ;)


Eddie

Eddie,

Almost every contest fish is the same size unless I missed a thread somewhere.

IMHO discus CAN reach their full potential in planted tanks with ease and less maintenance. I feel that I have proven that pretty well through the well documented contest. You can also ask a few folks on the forum that have been to my house and have seen my fish.... all of my adults are very large a thick. All of which were raised from 2~3" fish in a planted tank, just like the contest fish. Healthy stock does play a big part, but I do have discus that did not come from any sponsor of this forum and, although they are not genetically perfect, have grown very well and are ~7" adults today. I think that is pretty good. Could they have been 7.5 or 8"? Who knows.

Have you personally raised a fish out past 7" in a bare bottom tank with your methods? You may have posted it, but I don't remember reading about it.

P.S. I have never used a single chemical on any of the fish that were raised in my planted tanks. Never needed to. I often wonder why that is! It wasn't until I came TO this forum that i learned SOOOOO much about how sick discus can get. It was a shock.

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

Eddie,

Almost every contest fish is the same size unless I missed a thread somewhere.

IMHO discus CAN reach their full potential in planted tanks with ease and less maintenance. I feel that I have proven that pretty well through the well documented contest. You can also ask a few folks on the forum that have been to my house and have seen my fish.... all of my adults are very large a thick. All of which were raised from 2~3" fish in a planted tank, just like the contest fish. Healthy stock does play a big part, but I do have discus that did not come from any sponsor of this forum and, although they are not genetically perfect, have grown very well and are ~7" adults today. I think that is pretty good. Could they have been 7.5 or 8"? Who knows.

Have you personally raised a fish out past 7" in a bare bottom tank with your methods? You may have posted it, but I don't remember reading about it.

P.S. I have never used a single chemical on any of the fish that were raised in my planted tanks. Never needed to. I often wonder why that is! It wasn't until I came TO this forum that i learned SOOOOO much about how sick discus can get. It was a shock.

Best wishes!

LOL, maybe we are looking at different threads. ;)

[Chad Hughes]

LOL, maybe we are looking at different threads. ;)

OK dude, which one have you seen that I haven't.....

[Eddie]

OK dude, which one have you seen that I haven't.....

Its all good, there is still time. ;)

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

Its all good, there is still time. ;)

Eddie

Well, that is a fact. It's coming close to the end though. I glanced back through the treads. Still haven't found the fish that's 8" yet. Hmmmm....

Smart 4ss. :D