What is discus plague ?

[diamond_discus]

I have heard about this term. What exactly is this ?

[Eddie]

I have heard about this term. What exactly is this ?

Its a severe outbreak that can kill fast. Its something that one fish or another discus can carry and it infects fast. Many believe it to be a virus that lowers the fishes immune system, allowing multiple parasite infestation. Who knows, I just know that there are fixes if acted upon quickly and with the right chemicals/antibiotics.


Eddie

[diamond_discus]

Its a severe outbreak that can kill fast. Its something that one fish or another discus can carry and it infects fast. Many believe it to be a virus that lowers the fishes immune system, allowing multiple parasite infestation. Who knows, I just know that there are fixes if acted upon quickly and with the right chemicals/antibiotics.


Eddie

So what is the fix and how to avoid such disaster ?

[pcsb23]

Personally I think it is a myth ;)

ime I have NEVER seen a case that could not be explained as bacterial (usual), viral (rare as rocking horse poo) or parsites (common).

Very much think it's a case of "oh my discus have gone black and they are dieing - must be the plague" yeah right!

But that is just my opinion ......

[Bilbo_wh]

The classic answer is a strong PP bath but I have never seen anything that could be called Discus plague so I have never had to try.

[Chad Hughes]

By definition, Plague is a severe and potentially deadly bacterial infection.

[Eddie]

So what is the fix and how to avoid such disaster ?

PP followed up with a good gram negative antibiotic. This shouldn't be used as a preventative but as a treatment for an actual problem.

Eddie

[prolude006]

I tried pp and then the antibiotic but all three of mine passed on. They all had exactly the same syptoms before dieing so I would call it a "plague" they got it and died within a +- 48 hour period, very rapid.

[Eddie]

I tried pp and then the antibiotic but all three of mine passed on. They all had exactly the same syptoms before dieing so I would call it a "plague" they got it and died within a +- 48 hour period, very rapid.

Which antibiotic? Did you combine salt with the antibiotic, keep low temp?

[brewmaster15]

Personally I think it is a myth ;)

ime I have NEVER seen a case that could not be explained as bacterial (usual), viral (rare as rocking horse poo) or parsites (common).

Very much think it's a case of "oh my discus have gone black and they are dieing - must be the plague" yeah right!

But that is just my opinion ......
Ditto .....100%:)

-al

[ShinShin]

I don't understand how anyone who has been into discus for a long time can call it a myth. There are many documented cases back 20 or more years ago where entire angelfish and discus hatcheries had been wiped out in a matter of days. Many of these hatcheries were owned by professional angelfish and discus breeders who were well schooled in disease protocals.

There has been many theroies on what it (discus plague) actually is. Most, but not all, believe it is a viral infection that reduces the immune system to a degree that oppurtunistic pathogens can over take and kill the discus, very similar to AIDS. Following this theory, it is believed that if one can keep a discus alive through the secondary infections, the discus can clear the virus. Wattley has a protocal he developed way back when that was a nonchemical method that lasted about 3 weeks. Many of the discus recovered. Others, Jim Quarels comes to mind here, recommended a strong PP protocal (Jim called his the PDQ method).

An ichthyologist in the Seattle area owned a small angelfish hatchery that was hit by the plague after importing some breeding stock from Asia. He lost all his fish in short order. No medications worked. He also worked for the largest tropicafish importer in the Pacific Northwest at the time and was responsible for treating new fish. Disease and medications were his "thing". He obtained some fresh breeding stock from a domestic breeder that had not been infected. His new fish died within days. There was no problem at the breeder's hatchery where the new fish were purchased. In an experiment, the water that contained discus that had become infected was filtered with a filter capable of filtering out all microbes down as small as bacteria, but not viruses. He obtained more discus out of the Midwest once more. Again, all fish came down with the exact same disease. He followed the idea that it was a virus, treated for secondary infections as he dignosed them, and around 3 weeks some of the angelfish survived. His chemical method followed the same timeline as Wattley's, both having similar results. Some fish from the same shipment were kept at another location as a control, and were fine throughout the time frame.

The symptoms were always the same. Yes, many diseases involve black discus and excessive slime. We all know this. This disease differed in that the slime peeled off in huge sheets, the discus refused food, and there was a stench in the hatcheries and fishrooms of those infected. One or two fish in the tank won't just get it. They all do, and it jumps tank to tank.

I agree that the "plague" has been blamed too many times for other pathogenic outbreaks. There was, however, an outbreak in the USA via Asia that has been well documented. I perfer Discus AIDS to plague.

Mat

[Eddie]

I don't understand how anyone who has been into discus for a long time can call it a myth. There are many documented cases back 20 or more years ago where entire angelfish and discus hatcheries had been wiped out in a matter of days. Many of these hatcheries were owned by professional angelfish and discus breeders who were well schooled in disease protocals.

There has been many theroies on what it (discus plague) actually is. Most, but not all, believe it is a viral infection that reduces the immune system to a degree that oppurtunistic pathogens can over take and kill the discus, very similar to AIDS. Following this theory, it is believed that if one can keep a discus alive through the secondary infections, the discus can clear the virus. Wattley has a protocal he developed way back when that was a nonchemical method that lasted about 3 weeks. Many of the discus recovered. Others, Jim Quarels comes to mind here, recommended a strong PP protocal (Jim called his the PDQ method).

An ichthyologist in the Seattle area owned a small angelfish hatchery that was hit by the plague after importing some breeding stock from Asia. He lost all his fish in short order. No medications worked. He also worked for the largest tropicafish importer in the Pacific Northwest at the time and was responsible for treating new fish. Disease and medications were his "thing". He obtained some fresh breeding stock from a domestic breeder that had not been infected. His new fish died within days. There was no problem at the breeder's hatchery where the new fish were purchased. In an experiment, the water that contained discus that had become infected was filtered with a filter capable of filtering out all microbes down as small as bacteria, but not viruses. He obtained more discus out of the Midwest once more. Again, all fish came down with the exact same disease. He followed the idea that it was a virus, treated for secondary infections as he dignosed them, and around 3 weeks some of the angelfish survived. His chemical method followed the same timeline as Wattley's, both having similar results. Some fish from the same shipment were kept at another location as a control, and were fine throughout the time frame.

The symptoms were always the same. Yes, many diseases involve black discus and excessive slime. We all know this. This disease differed in that the slime peeled off in huge sheets, the discus refused food, and there was a stench in the hatcheries and fishrooms of those infected. One or two fish in the tank won't just get it. They all do, and it jumps tank to tank.

I agree that the "plague" has been blamed too many times for other pathogenic outbreaks. There was, however, an outbreak in the USA via Asia that has been well documented. I perfer Discus AIDS to plague.

Mat

Great post Mat!

[yim11]

This is a great discussion.

I often wonder if we don't have a situation where what Mat says was the case years ago, in that there was an actual plague that did wipe out lots of stock, but today we have a different situation.

I'm not convinced today's "plague" is the actual discus plague of the past that Mat speaks of. I think today's situations are best described by what I like to refer as the 'Mexico' theory.

The theory being imported fish are like drinking the water in Mexico. We all know not to drink the water when we visit Mexico as it contains bacteria our bodies aren't used to. Just as some imported fish will contain bacteria our domestic fish aren't used to. Long story short - over time both can be acclimated to accept the different conditions/bacteria.

Regardless, I do think the term "plague" is tossed out way too quick and way too often these days when a tank of fish goes dark or sheds slime.

Just my $0.02 and not sure its worth that much,
-jim

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
Anytime a tank of discus gets sick, its a "plague" of somesort on the fish and the owner...but to draw the conclusion that the disease agent is the same for all these cases or even the majority of them when there has never been a specific pathogen that has been identified is my problem with "plague" .. Yes there have been speculations and yes best guesses that a specific agent was the cause...but never a definitive lab analysis.

Taking a group of fish that are acting sick and artificially identifying them to have the pathogen as the dreaded "plague" then leads to others recommending the "plague" treatments that may be extremely dangerous, make things worse, or even can kill their fish.. and the poor hobbyist undertakes them in the belief that this the "Dreaded Plague" and if they don't they'll lose all their stock.

I'm sorry... I have seen far too many cases where people have been convinced they had the Dreaded "Plague" and what they had was a bacteria or a protozoan infection...

I am sure that over the years there have been outbreaks of various pathogens at various hatcheries and hobbyists homes, and I am sure that large numbers of people could have been infected by them...But I also see many variations of symptoms and many treatments that have been reported to work...that alone tells that "Plague" is not caused by one organism .

JMO,
al

[hedut]

I was wonder how long you wil need give those pp and antibiotic? Could you share more detail?

[prolude006]

Okay call it whatever you want but I had the same exact symptoms as bobtools had in his recent dilema. I had a significant odor from my tank once the fish were swimming with there heads pointed down. All of my imported fish are completely fine, but my three Hans discus I had for 3 years with no problems got sick within 24 hours after I put the new ones in the QT tank. Both tanks were in the same room yes but since the new fish came from a very very reputable simply seller I assumed I was safe. I tried following the pp treatment with water changes and then added the only antibiotic I had available-erythromycin-My largest discus looked fine after that but a couple hours later and he just did a 180 and all three were then dead. I did keep my temp around 81, ran my sponge filter on high(full output luft pump). The fish had great colors and red eyes then turned black and shedded slime coat in the last hour they were dieing. Idk what to call it or if I did everything exactly I should have but its what I had and could do at the time while working. I am hoping I will get a pair out of what I have for new fish and raise some babies as it took me three years and some convincing of the wife to get three new fish. The new ones are much better quality fish but my big cobalt was my first discus so He was special.

RIP buddy (I know its just a fish right)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DHRpG59OwcE/Sth2Slj4QPI/AAAAAAAAAik/9uShsIjxw9g/s400/014.JPG

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I just wanted to add, Erythromycin has very little to no effect on Gram-negative bacteria. Most types of bacteria encountered in aquaria/fish are gram-negative.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084


Most bacteria that infect fish fall into one of two groups - gram-positive or gram-negative. These groups are named based on their response to a protocol called gram staining. Gram-positive bacteria stain blue, and gram-negative bacteria stain pink. They stain differently because each group has a different type of outer structure known as the cell wall. This difference is important for the producer and aquaculturist because some antibiotics work better against gram-positive bacteria and others work better against gram-negative bacteria. Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative, including Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species. (See UF/IFAS Fact Sheets FA-14 Aeromonas Infections, FA-31 Vibrio Infections of Fish and FA-11 Columnaris disease). The major group of gram-positive bacteria that cause disease in fish are Streptococcus. (See UF/IFAS Circular 57 Streptococcal Infections in Fish.)


Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed. Erythromycin is not FDA-approved for use with food fish.

Eddie

[keno]

Sorry for your troubles there.

I totally agree with Matt here. Perhaps the old fishking thread should be stickied then perhaps people wouldnt dare mix from various sources. This seems much more likely to happen when mixing Asian fish with fish from Europe.

I have Stendkers from Germany and would really like to add some of the newer asian fish to my collection, but there is NO way I will put my existing stock at risk.

I have never had the plague, but I know it exists, is it bacterial, protazoan, viral I dont know nor do I care, but I will do everything in my power not to put my hobby and discus at risk.

[prolude006]

Eddie I agree that erythromycin usually does very little but it is effective on fungus and problems like that as I have used it many times due to the fact that it doesnt effect my inverts or cories. My fish showed some signs of fungus as they were dying so I gave it a shot. The gram negative antibiotics are not carried in my local lfs and I did not have time to order any as my fish were already dying. Wich meds are for gram negative? would melafix or primafix have any affect in saving fish with these issues? Someone post a sticky that gives some exact steps when dealing with an outbreak like this, seems to be happening a lot lately.
Thanks to All
David

[Eddie]

Eddie I agree that erythromycin usually does very little but it is effective on fungus and problems like that as I have used it many times due to the fact that it doesnt effect my inverts or cories. My fish showed some signs of fungus as they were dying so I gave it a shot. The gram negative antibiotics are not carried in my local lfs and I did not have time to order any as my fish were already dying. Wich meds are for gram negative? would melafix or primafix have any affect in saving fish with these issues? Someone post a sticky that gives some exact steps when dealing with an outbreak like this, seems to be happening a lot lately.
Thanks to All
David

Hey there David, totally understand, you have to go with what you have, especially in an emergency.

Pimafix and melafix are not very effective on discus at all. Discus produce alot of slime, regardless of infection. When they do fall ill, their slime coat gets hit hard, fungus erupts and then all hell breaks loose. Not only in my experience but in my limited experience in helping others, I have found discus to respond to Furan based antibiotics best. Without a doubt, they are the most effective IMO. They have amazing anti-fungal properties and they are effective on gram-negative bacteria. Additionally, they are very easy on the fish and also have little to no impact on nitrifying bacteria. They are my #1 choice for bacterial outbreaks.

As far as a step by step procedure for treatment, every case is different. My first step and what I have found in literature, is that you need to eliminate the parasite before you treat for bacteria or the fish will NEVER recover. The bacteria symptoms are secondary to the root cause and therefore must be treated secondly. ;)

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

.....And the scientific name of the disease organism that causes "plague" has finally been announced...

Idon'tknowwhatitis buttrythisicus var. Becausediscusaresickicus :)

Sorry all.. I realize the frustration when a tank of fish gets sick or a hatchery crashes...people want to know what is causing it... But I don't subscribe to all these cases being caused by the same pathogen, yet displaying different symptoms and having so much variation in treatments...

My advice to anyone with a tank of sick fish or hatchery thats crashed...be very very careful of how you chose to deal with it..

But hey...in the end they are your fish..not mine..

These are just my thoughts on "plague".

-al

[prolude006]

lol

[Spardas]

Okay call it whatever you want but I had the same exact symptoms as bobtools had in his recent dilema. I had a significant odor from my tank once the fish were swimming with there heads pointed down. All of my imported fish are completely fine, but my three Hans discus I had for 3 years with no problems got sick within 24 hours after I put the new ones in the QT tank. Both tanks were in the same room yes but since the new fish came from a very very reputable simply seller I assumed I was safe. I tried following the pp treatment with water changes and then added the only antibiotic I had available-erythromycin-My largest discus looked fine after that but a couple hours later and he just did a 180 and all three were then dead. I did keep my temp around 81, ran my sponge filter on high(full output luft pump). The fish had great colors and red eyes then turned black and shedded slime coat in the last hour they were dieing. Idk what to call it or if I did everything exactly I should have but its what I had and could do at the time while working. I am hoping I will get a pair out of what I have for new fish and raise some babies as it took me three years and some convincing of the wife to get three new fish. The new ones are much better quality fish but my big cobalt was my first discus so He was special.

RIP buddy (I know its just a fish right)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DHRpG59OwcE/Sth2Slj4QPI/AAAAAAAAAik/9uShsIjxw9g/s400/014.JPG

Interesting, didn't you just get some fish from Mike Beals recently. I wonder if anyone else shared the same experience with the recent shipment. :confused:

[Chad Hughes]

.....And the scientific name of the disease organism that causes "plague" has finally been announced...

Idon'tknowwhatitis buttrythisicus var. Becausediscusaresickicus :)

Sorry all.. I realize the frustration when a tank of fish gets sick or a hatchery crashes...people want to know what is causing it... But I don't subscribe to all these cases being caused by the same pathogen, yet displaying different symptoms and having so much variation in treatments...

My advice to anyone with a tank of sick fish or hatchery thats crashed...be very very careful of how you chose to deal with it..

But hey...in the end they are your fish..not mine..



These are just my thoughts on "plague".

-al

Quick! Someone add
Idon'tknowwhatitis buttrythisicus var. Becausediscusaresickicus to wikipedia! LOL!

Good one Al!

[ShinShin]

Al,

I agree that there are many outbreaks in hobbyist's tanks that the word "plague" is mentioned. Is it? Probably not. In fact, it is highly improbable. I am not refering to the hobbyist here. The first plague outbreak occurred in "professional" hatcheries where the owners knew more about discus and angelfish than the vast majority of people who participate on this and other forums like this one (public). It is not like when someone not experienced has a tank breakdown and has no idea what to do and all the fish die. I remember reading Wattley's encounter with the plague in a friend's tank. It is when he came up with his protocal.

It is no surprise that a pathogen has not been identified. Not much cash for research I'll bet. Just like AIDS, death comes from different infections, all because of the supressed immune system. Another reason it may have disappeared over time is that the virus may have mutated.

There is just too much documention of the occurance of the plague back in the day to think it is a myth. Is is blamed too many for other problems, most likely.

Mat

[Eddie]

It is no surprise that a pathogen has not been identified. Not much cash for research I'll bet. Just like AIDS, death comes from different infections, all because of the supressed immune system. Another reason it may have disappeared over time is that the virus may have mutated.


Another good post Mat. As in many documented cases, the culprit was never found. Only minor parasite/bacteria issues that could have easily been dealt with using simple aquatic treatments.


Eddie

[prolude006]

Interesting, didn't you just get some fish from Mike Beals recently. I wonder if anyone else shared the same experience with the recent shipment. :confused:

Yes and no, it seems no one has had any problems as many fish have gone out. I dont know what others had for fish but my german fish apparently couldnt fight off what ever they had. PP dosage worked on the dominant oldest fish for a bit then bam that was it. It does seem like they all had many different problems at once, kinda like they caught every sickness they could possibly get.

I will chalk it up to a learning experience and move on with the great quality fish I have now. The shape, color and size will be much better as my others were my first try with discus and were grown in a planted tank.

I will be stocking some other meds now just in case so I can be ready at the first signs of a problem.

David

[brewmaster15]

Al,

I agree that there are many outbreaks in hobbyist's tanks that the word "plague" is mentioned. Is it? Probably not. In fact, it is highly improbable. I am not refering to the hobbyist here. The first plague outbreak occurred in "professional" hatcheries where the owners knew more about discus and angelfish than the vast majority of people who participate on this and other forums like this one (public). It is not like when someone not experienced has a tank breakdown and has no idea what to do and all the fish die. I remember reading Wattley's encounter with the plague in a friend's tank. It is when he came up with his protocal.

It is no surprise that a pathogen has not been identified. Not much cash for research I'll bet. Just like AIDS, death comes from different infections, all because of the supressed immune system. Another reason it may have disappeared over time is that the virus may have mutated.

There is just too much documention of the occurance of the plague back in the day to think it is a myth. Is is blamed too many for other problems, most likely.

Mat

Mat we are probably 75- 80 % in agreement on this one...and that my friend is pretty darn close among the Discus Fanatics...:) maybe we can close that gap up if you are going to Texas for the show?

-al

[ShinShin]

Al,

Now if you just let go of 85% of your live CBW ideas, there isn't much we'd disagree on. I'll be in Dallas unless the Universe has other ideas on the matter. Let's just say that I have my plane ticket and hotel reservations in place.

Mat

[Yiannisk]

What do you think of this Video ??

it hit me last Christmas after introducing a new female and all my tanks were infected i did exactly what watley suggested (read in Internet) and save them all but the babies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pa4Rsdg76s

Forget about the babies they are all gone but the brown mother is in perfect condition having babies right now
Is the lady with her babies in my avatar today

[brewmaster15]

What do you think of this Video ??

it hit me last Christmas after introducing a new female and all my tanks were infected i did exactly what watley suggested (read in Internet) and save them all but the babies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pa4Rsdg76s

Forget about the babies they are all gone but the brown mother is in perfect condition having babies right now
Is the lady with her babies in my avatar today
Honestly, without knowing any of the details, or using a microscope... the best anyone can tell you is that you had a tank of sick fish....not trying to make little of what was an obviously bad experience...but thats really all that anyone can say.:(


Mat,

Al,

Now if you just let go of 85% of your live CBW ideas, there isn't much we'd disagree on. I'll be in Dallas unless the Universe has other ideas on the matter. Let's just say that I have my plane ticket and hotel reservations in place.

Mat Now what fun would it be if you let go of 85%-100 % of Your live blackworm ideas? ;) Glad to hear that after all these years we may finally be able to meet. I'm lookind forward to it!:)

-al