Going without a BIO-FILTER . . . ?

[DonMD]

My question: If I change 90% of the water daily, can I get by without a bio-filter? You ask, why do I want to do that ? ? ?

Flukes. I have tried everything I can think of to eradicate flukes, but mine are bionic. The last effort was with MinnFinn, and after two separate series of treatments, it's NO SOAP.

The reason I didn't use Potassium Permanganate is because with all the sand in the 125 g, and 2 canister filters, I could never keep it viable for longer than about 20 minutes, due I think to high organic load.

So, now, I have to sterilize everything. I'll remove the sand and make it a BB, remove and sterilize the canister filters, hoses, and see if I can get the PP to remain viable for the 4-hours required. I can condition about 130 gallons every night, so I can change all the water in the tank daily.

Without filtration, but with a 90 - 95% WC daily for 2 weeks (treating with PP every 3 days), would the fish do OK, do you think? Or would there be too much ammonia buildup during the 24 hours between WC's?

Obviously, after successfully treating with PP, I'd re-establish the bio-filters.

[Jhhnn]

Good question. I suspect you'd be OK using prime or safe at double the normal dose, and checking the water quality daily with a seachem ammonia test kit. It's the only one I know of that can tell the difference between free ammonia and ammonium...

Good aeration and siphoning up the poop in the morning, water changes in the evening would probably be OK. Might want to run a canister or powerhead in such a way as to push the detritus to one end, making cleanup easier... PP shouldn't hurt the canister itself...

I'm certainly no expert here, particularly wrt PP, but I have obtained apparent fluke eradication with Clout in BB tanks, dosing every fourth day, three times...

[BOBT00LS]

Hey Don. It can be done and I speak from experience because I did it. I had twenty four, 4-7 inch discus in a 55 gallon tank, no filtration, but heavy airation. I treated my discus with PP for 10 consecutive days and followed up every treatment daily with a 100% water change. The discus came out of it in great shape and clean as a whistle. Keep in mind that Prime will cuase your Potassium Permanganate to lose some of its effectiveness. I used straight aged/airated water with no conditioners for my water changes.

Bob

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

It is definetly possible, just depends on a few things....pH, number of fish, how much food fed daily (protein content), along with having adequate aeration.

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Sure, its as Ryan says, many variables. For several of my pairs, I have no bio filtration, rely solely on water changes. ;)

[Scribbles]

It should be doable as long as you keep up the wc. Good luck with your treatment.

Chris

[Harriett]

I have already posted on Andrew Soh's 12 day PP treatment for flukes, but in answer to your question: Andrew's plan is a 4 hour PP bath every 4th day x 3. What I did was to do the PP baths in a sterilized smaller tank with just a heater and airstone running, and at the same time I ran a much heavier PP bath in their regular tank with the filter media pulled and dumped but the filter still going, and I threw in the water change hose as well as the net I used to move them to the treatment tank. I then thoroughly cleaned out their regular tank of all PP, put in fresh filter floss in the aquaclear, and dumped in one of the better products for jump starting biofilter. When the treatment time was up, I moved them back into the regular tank and did 70% water changes 2 x day. By the 3rd day I was down to 1 water change daily because the starter worked and the fish were clearly doing fine. Then I started over again, same process, on days 4 and 8. Completed on day 12, and this time let the biofilter build with the new media and that was it. I am now 7 months out and all discus are healthy without a reoccurance. BIG PITA to do but I didn't lose one out of the 12 juvies in there. They were 12 weeks at time of treatment and they were in a 37g tank. A few weeks after treatment was comlted they moved into a 125 and are thriving.
Hope that helps?
Harriett

[DonMD]

Bob,

Did your water also have chloramines in it? And, thanks very much for sharing this experience.


Hey Don. It can be done and I speak from experience because I did it. I had twenty four, 4-7 inch discus in a 55 gallon tank, no filtration, but heavy airation. I treated my discus with PP for 10 consecutive days and followed up every treatment daily with a 100% water change. The discus came out of it in great shape and clean as a whistle. Keep in mind that Prime will cuase your Potassium Permanganate to lose some of its effectiveness. I used straight aged/airated water with no conditioners for my water changes.

Bob

[rickztahone]

I have already posted on Andrew Soh's 12 day PP treatment for flukes, but in answer to your question: Andrew's plan is a 4 hour PP bath every 4th day x 3. What I did was to do the PP baths in a sterilized smaller tank with just a heater and airstone running, and at the same time I ran a much heavier PP bath in their regular tank with the filter media pulled and dumped but the filter still going, and I threw in the water change hose as well as the net I used to move them to the treatment tank. I then thoroughly cleaned out their regular tank of all PP, put in fresh filter floss in the aquaclear, and dumped in one of the better products for jump starting biofilter. When the treatment time was up, I moved them back into the regular tank and did 70% water changes 2 x day. By the 3rd day I was down to 1 water change daily because the starter worked and the fish were clearly doing fine. Then I started over again, same process, on days 4 and 8. Completed on day 12, and this time let the biofilter build with the new media and that was it. I am now 7 months out and all discus are healthy without a reoccurance. BIG PITA to do but I didn't lose one out of the 12 juvies in there. They were 12 weeks at time of treatment and they were in a 37g tank. A few weeks after treatment was comlted they moved into a 125 and are thriving.
Hope that helps?
Harriett

I know everyone has been avoiding Harriett's method (per Mr. Soh) because it's so involved but at this point Don, i think it's your only hope. i have recently successfully treated for flukes with pure prazi from Jehmco. i'm on the 3rd and last treatment but i have not seen any flashing, gill problems, or anything that would indicate that the flukes survived the treatment. if they did survive, then it is something that the discus will have to live with because i'm tired of treating for flukes. oddly enough, my plants didn't take the hit like i thought they would, some actually grew more with the irregular water changes, go figure. anyway, i wish you luck with whatever you decide Don. keep in mind that the best solution might be to keep moving the discus from one tank to the other since the flukes need a host and die off if they do not have one. you will have to nuke everything in your current tank.

[DonMD]

Thanks Harriett and Rick and others. Harriett, I did see your earlier posts, and as Rick says, was avoiding it due to PITA factors . . .

So, it's down to it now, though. I just have to check my calendar carefully and make sure I have the time to dedicate to this effort. Thanks, all, I'll let you know if I'm successful. AHHHHHHHH. LOL.

[BOBT00LS]

Bob,

Did your water also have chloramines in it? And, thanks very much for sharing this experience.


Hello Don. There are no chlorimines in my water which is why I was able to just age and airate without using prime during the PP treatment. If you have any questions feel free to get in touch.


Bob

[tcyiu]

Don,
Here's a thought. 125 gal is a LOT of water. Perhaps you might fill your tank only to half during the treatment. And you'll use less meds which means less meds get dumped into the sewage system.

Just a thought.

Tim

[nc0gnet0]

without using prime during the PP treatment.

Why on earth would you use prime during a PP treatment? Prime will deactivate the PP rendering it useless.

Don, if your worried about ammonia levels during your PP treatment remove you bio media from your filters (it will get hammered by the PP anyways) and put in some zeolite during the treatment cycle.

[nc0gnet0]

I like harriets method although I think it would only be neccesary for the first cycle to remove the fish from the display tank. Nuke the display tank with a 20-30 ppm dose for 4 hours, then hit it with 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide, add lots of air and let sit for 2-3 hours before adding back fish. This should effectivley oxidize all the built up DOC's and the remaining treatments should be possible in the display tank.

[DonMD]

I like harriets method although I think it would only be neccesary for the first cycle to remove the fish from the display tank. Nuke the display tank with a 20-30 ppm dose for 4 hours, then hit it with 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide, add lots of air and let sit for 2-3 hours before adding back fish. This should effectivley oxidize all the built up DOC's and the remaining treatments should be possible in the display tank.

Sorry, I don't know what DOC's are, can you specify?

I obviously am not going to use Prime while using PP, I've found out before that it interferes. And, I am planning on taking both canister filters and sterilizing separately. Then, with no filtration, change out 95% of the water with aged water that has been aerated but not de-chorimined, treat with PP for four hours, clear it with hydrogen perozide and then add Prime, repeating daily for 10 days.

[keno]

DOC's are dissolved organic compounds

[nc0gnet0]

DOC's = Dissolved organic compounds. This is what uses up the PP causing it to go brown color (if this happens the PP is spent, you need it to mantain the purple/pink color during treatment). By removing the fish from your tank and treating seperately, this should allow you to treat the original tank at a much higher dose, thus oxidizing your DOC's (and any nasty bugs). I routinely treat my water lilly's in 30 ppm without any ill effects before I put them in my pond (however if you have any snails it will kill them).

I am just thinking this should allow you to do the follow up treatments within the same tank on treatments two and three. The follow-up with hydrogen peroxide will also further oxidize any remaining DOC's as well as turn your water from brown to crystal clear. There is no need to add prime to the display tank (when the fish are not in the tank) as hydrogen peroxide will turn the PP off just as well. But, I would not advise using hydrogen peroxide on the tank in which you are treating the discus with PP, as this will result in a dramatic drop in your ORP, possibly sending your fish into shock.

[Harriett]

DOC's = Dissolved organic compounds. This is what uses up the PP causing it to go brown color (if this happens the PP is spent, you need it to mantain the purple/pink color during treatment). By removing the fish from your tank and treating seperately, this should allow you to treat the original tank at a much higher dose, thus oxidizing your DOC's (and any nasty bugs). I routinely treat my water lilly's in 30 ppm without any ill effects before I put them in my pond (however if you have any snails it will kill them).

I am just thinking this should allow you to do the follow up treatments within the same tank on treatments two and three. The follow-up with hydrogen peroxide will also further oxidize any remaining DOC's as well as turn your water from brown to crystal clear. There is no need to add prime to the display tank (when the fish are not in the tank) as hydrogen peroxide will turn the PP off just as well. But, I would not advise using hydrogen peroxide on the tank in which you are treating the discus with PP, as this will result in a dramatic drop in your ORP, possibly sending your fish into shock.

Just a last clarification: I believe Andrew advised moving the discus to a treatment tank for all three treatments while NUKING the regular tank was to eliminate any possibility that you have ANY fluke issues in the original tank, including the net used to move the discus to the treatment tank, the filtration system, and water changing hoses, in order to completely empty it, clean it out and refill with warm salted conditioned water to get the fish into immediately post treatment [no lights--they need to rest]. The PP treatments are not a piece of cake on the discus, though they did FINE--I watched them closely the last hour of every treatment. Mine stayed upright but were quiet and listless after getting them moved back to their home and didn't want to eat until the next day, after the PP baths. Then they were normal in behaviour. Remember with this approach, get rid of the filter media--it is not worth the risk that it harbors flukes or eggs. I just used cheap blue+white floss style, about 2 bucks worth total.
That's all I've got. It was 100% worth it and not that hard to do.
Best regards,
Harriett

[sayid]

My question: If I change 90% of the water daily, can I get by without a bio-filter? You ask, why do I want to do that ? ? ?

Flukes. I have tried everything I can think of to eradicate flukes, but mine are bionic. The last effort was with MinnFinn, and after two separate series of treatments, it's NO SOAP.

The reason I didn't use Potassium Permanganate is because with all the sand in the 125 g, and 2 canister filters, I could never keep it viable for longer than about 20 minutes, due I think to high organic load.

So, now, I have to sterilize everything. I'll remove the sand and make it a BB, remove and sterilize the canister filters, hoses, and see if I can get the PP to remain viable for the 4-hours required. I can condition about 130 gallons every night, so I can change all the water in the tank daily.

Without filtration, but with a 90 - 95% WC daily for 2 weeks (treating with PP every 3 days), would the fish do OK, do you think? Or would there be too much ammonia buildup during the 24 hours between WC's?

Obviously, after successfully treating with PP, I'd re-establish the bio-filters.

Hi Don;
I realize that this thread is old but i just thought i ask , i am facing the same dilemma with gill fluke ,i have a 55 gallon tank which i need to nuke with high 10 mg per liter of PP and for 2 weeks i need to house my 15 adult discus in it without any bio filter and relying on 95% WATER CHANGE every day , i believe you went through this exercise , was it successful or not ?
Sayid

[Filip]

Thanks for reviving this old but very informative thread Sayid . I kinda miss this kind of discussions and members interest nowadays.
You can send PM to Don with a link to this thread so he can catch it next time he is logged in . He is getting started again with discus after a period of brake so he may not be too active to catch this one without a notification.

As for the experience . I've recently been through the same experience and from all i could see it went just fine .
I've done the total sterilization of tank and equipment with 4 hour 20 PPM PP bath while my 11 - 5 inch discus were resting in a fresh 20 gallon tank for 24 hours after their first PP treatment .
I have done the tank and equipment sterilization only after their first PP treatment and the next 3 treatments were performed in the same uncycled tank to a total of 4 treatments (16 days span ) .
I've changed 90% water every day and fed very little and they did just fine through the whole treatment and afterwards .

[ssevasta]

Yea it really sucks that most of our most knowledgeable and experienced members have moved on. I spend almost all my time on the site just reading the older threads from back then. It’s a much different crowd now than when i joined in 09.

[White Worm]

Yup

[DonMD]

Hi Don;
I realize that this thread is old but i just thought i ask , i am facing the same dilemma with gill fluke ,i have a 55 gallon tank which i need to nuke with high 10 mg per liter of PP and for 2 weeks i need to house my 15 adult discus in it without any bio filter and relying on 95% WATER CHANGE every day , i believe you went through this exercise , was it successful or not ?
Sayid

I have never had any luck using PP. When I suspect flukes, I use praziquantel. But I do think the fish can handle a tank without a bio filter as long as you change most or all of their water daily.

[DonMD]

I have never had any luck using PP. When I suspect flukes, I use praziquantel. But I do think the fish can handle a tank without a bio filter as long as you change most or all of their water daily.


And also doubling up on the Safe, or whatever conditioner you use to remove chlorine because that usually detoxifies nitrites.

[sayid]

Filip ;
Thanks for your quick reply, . did you sterilize the filter media using 10% bleach ?
. also did you use Stability to jump start the cycling ?
Sean;
Thanks for your input.
Mike;
Thanks for your input.
Don;
Thanks for remembering what happened 7 years ago ,i have used a 21 days course of praziquantel with no success ,i plan to use 90% w/c using double dose of Safe as you suggested on a daily bases ,i also plan to use added salt for a month as an insurance against infection in the water.

[sayid]

This is a 55 g tank which is going to have 15 adult discus and 8 sterbais ,it has a very thin layer of PS but the plant pot and drift wood are going to be removed before the treatment.113138

[sayid]

This is my 130 g tank which contains 10 adult discus 6 to 7 inch and 4 sterbais at the moment ,all the fish are going to be transfer d to the 55 g tank before the treatment,the plant pot and the drift wood are transferred to be bleached separately.113139
Also 130 g tank has 2 canister filter and 55g tank 1 canister ,i plan to sterilize the sponge media using 10 % bleach and seachem matrix is going to be nuked using microwave .
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks
Sayid

[Filip]

Sayid , I've used 20 ppm of PP for 4 hours to sterilize the main tank and equipment .
I didn't use any bottled bio bacteria as starter but just plain 90% daily WCs and bigger dose of Safe . Day prior the next PP treatment I've skipped the Safe to avoid PP neutralization by it.
You can just pour Bleach or PP in tanks and leave the canisters along with the media inside runing(including matrix) .
Afterwards you just rinse them under tap and they are done sterilizing .
Unroot the plants , sterilize them and then pot them in new fresh sand / soil pots .
Keep the fish in your 130 g during the cycling proces because of their bioload , 15 grown in 55 g without established filter will be an overkill .

BTW , very nice looking discus .
I'm curious about the trick with the background light on your 55 g tank . It gives a romantic dawn or twighlight effect to the tank .

[sayid]

Hi Filip;
Thanks for the nice words ,I am going to start a new thread on how i did the back light to produce the twilight effect with step by step photos ,just give me a bit more times and i will let you know.

[Filip]

Hi Filip;
Thanks for the nice words ,I am going to start a new thread on how i did the back light to produce the twilight effect with step by step photos ,just give me a bit more times and i will let you know.

Looking forward to that Sayid :-)

[sayid]

Hi Filip;
Today i have transferred all my 15 discus to my 130 g tank together with 8 cories ,i have moved all the plants and the drift woods to a separate container getting ready for the big move 113308
113309
I don't know why but i am very nervous in case i get ammonia spike ,i think i go and get some zeolite as an insurance in case.
I also will get some seachem stability in case ,some question i have ?
. You talked about " my discus are resting in a 20 g tank " is that the same tank that you treated discus for 4 hours 2 mg/l of PP ?
. Did you used 10% bleach to nuke the media in your canister or 20 mg/l of PP ?
I am waiting to see how you are going with your treatment and also for the discus to settle down in their new environment before i start .
Let me know what you think.
Thanks

[sayid]

Well i decided to go through the PP treatment along Andrew soh method, i did 2mg/l of PP on day 1, 4 , 7 ,11,14 in 20 g Q tank for 4 hours simultaneously treated the display tank with 20 mg/l of PP with all the equipment e.g hoses ,nets buckets etc to make sure that there is no cross contamination ,i gave minimum food and w/c of 90% every day ,i left the canister fillter on all the time but had couple of air stone on all the time ,there was a lot of oxidation in form of brown slug on the first few times but gradually both the display tank and the fish got cleaner and cleaner ,also i added 0.5 ml of normal salt to the tank after the w/c to take care of possible ammonia also help replenish the slime coat and stop possible infection , i am surprised how smooth it has gone ,i have not even experienced any stress ,after day 14 all my fish are breathing much much slower with much less effort ,i am going to increase the feed slowly and add the extra salt for 30 days more .i have treated the plants and the wood in a separate tank for 30 days and will gradually introduce it to the display tank.
I am extremely happy with the outcome even though it is still too soon to judge .
If any body has any comment/ question please let me know .