Dark Discus????

[underwaterforest]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

I just recently got 10 new discus (2 weeks ago) noticed that an altum flora (smallest one) was dark from the day that I received him. I didn't worry about it because I thought it was just shipping stress, but he appears to only be getting worse- e.g. he is turning darker in color and is skinny in appearance to the other altums. All the fish in the tank have had pelvic fin degradation (25-50% loss of pelvic fins) and some split fins. Most of the altum flora are dark in color and only the largest appears to be unaffected by the darkening. On a positive note almost all the the discus are eating fine (hikari FBW and mal's FDBW).

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Turning Dark, clamped fins, some flashing/darting, skinny and some have holes in their head from when I received them (altum flora, AEL primarily). Some strange swimming- sideways and head pointed down for a while. Pelvic fin degradation (25-50% loss of pelvic fins) and some split fins (anal/dorsal).

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

I am currently doing a treatment of furan-2 (day 4), and kosher salt at 1.5 tbsp per 10 gallons. The furan-2 seemed to slow down the pelvic fin issue but fish are still shaking their fins and some have clamped fins and are dark.

Tank/Water
4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

92 gallon tank newly setup with sump (fish less cycle), 10 discus from 3.5-5 inches.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

75% WC per day (50% WC per day on furan treatment). Tank has been set up since end of January. Bare bottom tank. Water not aged but treated with prime. Little to no pH change between tap and tank.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____86

- ph _____7.1-7.2

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____less than 5ppm, at most 10ppm

- well water ____No

- municipal water ____Yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No, all fish were purchased at the same time from the same breeder. No plants and separate water changing system from my other tanks.

Thanks
http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae177/paganfx4/Fish%20Tank/DarkDiscus004.jpg

[pcsb23]

I can't see from the pics, bit too dark form me to make out, sorry :o

From your description it sounds as though the fish have internal parasites, either flagellates or nematodes. Have you seen any poop? Initial thought would be nematodes but it's a guess and 50/50 at best.

Nematodes need something like levimasole, piperazine, flubendazole or fenbendazole (food only), flagellates need metro.

The fin rot is probably secondary, also they will develop this with sever parasite infections.

[underwaterforest]

Poop appear to be fine- it is black and not very stringy. After talking with Kenny I am going to get some PP for possible external problems but I'm not too sure if any internal problems exist.

I didn't get to take a culture of the fin rot before treatment with the furan-2, but I can try and get a sample of the poop for microscopy and culturing at my local vet lab. Anything I should be on the look out for?

[pcsb23]

If you get a faecal sample it has to be as it drops from the fish. Then into clean water, not tank water. I'd suggest looking for evidence of nematodes (capillaria etc).

Fish going thin means they are not getting nutrients. This is either because they are not eating and haven't been for some time, or they have something in them (not on them) that is taking the food value away. If the poop is dark I would be thinking nematodes, but again it is only my best guess.

[underwaterforest]

Thanks for your best guess Paul. If I do treat for nematodes can I do so as a preventative treatment or should I be very sure they have them first? I hate just throwing meds at my fish but I really want to treat them before they lose their appetite and are relatively healthy.

[pcsb23]

You can treat "just in case" here. The vast majority of discus will have some, treating can sometimes put the balance back in the fishes favour. If they are eating then fenbendazole in food, other wise levimasole, piperazine or flubendazole all do well.

[underwaterforest]

I just got some levimasole ordered. I going to finish my 7 day treatment with the furan-2 and then treat with PP if needed and finally treat with the levimasole as you recommend. I have been reading some old posts by brewmaster and found that he would also treat with praziquantel as a preventative for flukes. Should I do that also? Also how long should I wait between treatments? Thanks.

[pcsb23]

You can go to the PP as soon as you have got the furan 2 out of the water. Levimasole straight after the PP, after a w/c of course. When I have used levimasole it has hacked the fish off so I would give them two or three days before treating with anything else of just good clean water. I would do the follow up treatment with levimasole before going to prazi.

As for prazi, if it is pure prazi then ime it is still one of the best treatments for flukes, I'd make a judgement call after the levimasole.

[underwaterforest]

I would do the follow up treatment with levimasole before going to prazi.

As for prazi, if it is pure prazi then ime it is still one of the best treatments for flukes, I'd make a judgement call after the levimasole.

Would just two treatments of levimasole be enough? 3 days apart?

I do plan on getting the pure form of the prazi. Do you still recommend using prazi with a little DMSO to dissolve it in?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is the first time I've gone to this level of treatment with my fish. Usually I just add food and change water but discus seem to need much more "care" to make healthy.

[pcsb23]

Normally treat 5 to 7 days apart with levimasole. And yes two treatments is usually adequate.

Pure prazi and DMSO work well (stinks) also pure prazi dissolves nicely in vodka too, which doesn't stink!! And you can drink the left over vodka (even with prazi in I expect - but wouldn't advise ;)) Because of the possible health hazards with DMSO I haven't used it in a while.


...
Sorry for all the questions, but this is the first time I've gone to this level of treatment with my fish. Usually I just add food and change water but discus seem to need much more "care" to make healthy.Better to aks and make a judgement on advice given than to guess and get it wrong. tbh it is rare for discus to get sick when they are sourced from a reputable supplier and therefore start out healthy, provided they are given good water food and care they are usually bullet proof. One thing is for sure they are an awful lot tougher than we realise.

Are they showing any signs of flukes? If not then re-assess after the levimasole.

[underwaterforest]

Are they showing any signs of flukes? If not then re-assess after the levimasole.

No, they aren't showing any outward sign of flukes other than being dark and skinny. I won't order the prazi now and assess their health after the levimasole, but thanks for instructions on it's use if I ever have to.

[underwaterforest]

Just an update. Well things aren't getting much better after the furan-2 treatment. The fin rot seemed to stop initially but now I starting to see it again. Also two of the altum floras are now not feeding anymore and hiding at the back of the tank . Surprisingly the darkest altum that I've been worrying about is still feeding but he is very dark and not looking in tip top shape. Everybody is looking a little under the weather in the tank, e.g. they are not eating and begging as much as they had.

Since treating with the furan 2 the bio filter seems to have also been affected since I have read trace amount of ammonia bf water changes (50-75% per day). So I am feeding the fish less (twice a day) and hoping the PP treatment will work wonders for me (fingers crossed). Kenny also advised me against the levimasole and suggested if anything to use metro, but I will see what happens after the PP treatment.

I hope the fish get better.:(

[Eddie]

Sometimes the presence of parasites, prevents the effective use of antibiotics. "Generally" it is a good practice to eliminate the external parasite and follow through with an antibiotic if needed. Most bacteria infections are secondary to the underlying cause (parasites, poor environment).

If you treat with PP, don't do it in the main/display tank. It is best used in a hospital tank with nothing but fish, water and air. Also a heater if the ambient temp is too cool.

Treating any fish in a display tank is really ineffective.

Eddie

[underwaterforest]

Sometimes the presence of parasites, prevents the effective use of antibiotics. "Generally" it is a good practice to eliminate the external parasite and follow through with an antibiotic if needed. Most bacteria infections are secondary to the underlying cause (parasites, poor environment).

If you treat with PP, don't do it in the main/display tank. It is best used in a hospital tank with nothing but fish, water and air. Also a heater if the ambient temp is too cool.

Treating any fish in a display tank is really ineffective.

Eddie

Thanks Eddie. I'm still not sure what is going on, if it is primarily bacterial or if the bacterial infection is just a secondary symptom of a deeper underlying problem. The fish do get daily water changes (50-80%) and I have 4 filters (2x hydro sponges, 1-magnum 350) plus a large wet/dry sump/UV light so I believe water quality is OK. But I could be wrong. Maybe I could add another air pump? The pH is always stable and I use a dechlor at each change.

I'm going to PP treat in my display tank since Kenny advised me that it is the only way to make sure everything is killed and not left behind to proliferate.

Still hoping for a miracle.

[Eddie]

Filtration means ZERO when it comes to water quality. If all your filters are housing some form of negative bacteria, any and all water being filtered through the filters is MUD.

Move the fish to a hospital tank and treat them there. You can use the PP in the display tank to eradicate to kick back whatever may be going on but using PP in the main display tank is like pi$$ing in the wind.

Eddie

[underwaterforest]

Filtration means ZERO when it comes to water quality. If all your filters are housing some form of negative bacteria, any and all water being filtered through the filters is MUD.

Move the fish to a hospital tank and treat them there. You can use the PP in the display tank to eradicate to kick back whatever may be going on but using PP in the main display tank is like pi$$ing in the wind.

Eddie

Yes I understand that filters can harbor pathogenic bacterial all I meant by stating my filters was to let you know that it has adequate mech./bio filtration which is what I think of as water quality. If it has an overgrowth of a BAD bacteria there is not much I can do other than nuke the bastards chemically or try to bring biological balance somehow.

On the display tank issue why do you believe using PP in it is "pissing in the wind"? Does it deactivate faster due to the larger amount of organics or for the bio filter possibly? I'm just a neophyte to the PP and antibiotic scene and I am just doing what Kenny is instructing me to do. Though I will bring up the display tank thing to him to see what he says since I have a 29 gallon that I could use to dose PP.

[Eddie]

Yes I understand that filters can harbor pathogenic bacterial all I meant by stating my filters was to let you know that it has adequate mech./bio filtration which is what I think of as water quality. If it has an overgrowth of a BAD bacteria there is not much I can do other than nuke the bastards chemically or try to bring biological balance somehow.

On the display tank issue why do you believe using PP in it is "pissing in the wind"? Does it deactivate faster due to the larger amount of organics or for the bio filter possibly? I'm just a neophyte to the PP and antibiotic scene and I am just doing what Kenny is instructing me to do. Though I will bring up the display tank thing to him to see what he says since I have a 29 gallon that I could use to dose PP.

Exactly as you are assuming, PP works on all organics in the tank and it will not work aggressively/effectively on the fish with all those variables.

I personally think that going with the PP treatment in a bare 29 will render a more effective treatment BUT with that being said, you will still have the issues going on in the main tank. You could go with PP in the main tank with a higher concentration of PP if there are no fish and this can/will help knock out whatever may be going on. I am not going against what Kenny recommends, he is way more experienced than I. I simply suggest doing the PP treatment on the discus in a bare tank, separate from the main tank.


Eddie

[underwaterforest]

I think I understand you Eddie. Kenny's recommendation for the higher organics problem is to just add more stock solution when the color turns brown to bring it back to light pink and keep a constant eye on the tank while treating. He recommended to me a 4 hour treatment time which at the end I could add h2o2 3% to neutralize and a large WC (80-90%). Also not to use dechlor beforehand since this deactivates the PP and just wait 24 hour for it to evaporate naturally b4 the PP treatment.

P.S. I forgot to say my display tank is a BB tank, so it should help me out.

[Eddie]

I think I understand you Eddie. Kenny's recommendation for the higher organics problem is to just add more stock solution when the color turns brown to bring it back to light pink and keep a constant eye on the tank while treating. He recommended to me a 4 hour treatment time which at the end I could add h2o2 3% to neutralize and a large WC (80-90%). Also not to use dechlor beforehand since this deactivates the PP and just wait 24 hour for it to evaporate naturally b4 the PP treatment.

P.S. I forgot to say my display tank is a BB tank, so it should help me out.

Ah, sounds good. Kenny is the man! He's also helped me before.


All the best,

Eddie

[underwaterforest]

Ah, sounds good. Kenny is the man! He's also helped me before.


All the best,

Eddie

Thanks Eddie. I wholeheartedly agree that Kenny is the man!! I'm so glad I bought from him (thanks for the recommendation by the way :D).

He has gone above and beyond to help me out, and check in to make sure my fish are doing well.

[underwaterforest]

Yesterday I did the PP treatment on all the fish in my main tank. The PP treatment was a little taxing (on me and on the fish). I had to keep adding a few drops of my stock PP solution whenever the color started to turn brownish, every half hour or so for 4 hours total treatment time.

But the results are great so far, the fish looked happier and more energetic after the treatment and don't hide as much, with less clamped fins. Also the two altum floras which were not eating, started to nibble at food again :). I'm not too sure how long this treatment's benefits will last to my tank since this morning I awoke to a slight haze to the water, most likely another bacterial bloom. I'm not too surprised by this though since I pretty much nuked my biofilter. I will have to keep a good eye on my ammonia and nitrites for the next few weeks till I establish another biofilter colony. I was hoping the purigen I added to my magnum last night would help with the haze/organics problem but I guess not. I'm not too sure if I will treat with PP again or move to a deworming agent next, only time will tell. Thanks for everybody's advice.

[Eddie]

Sounds like the treatment helped. Just clean water every day should get them on top of their game. Make sure you clean/squeeze the filter media to get that old residue out. The tank water will stay cloudy if you don't clean out the filter, following a PP treatment.


All the best,

Eddie

[underwaterforest]

Sounds like the treatment helped. Just clean water every day should get them on top of their game. Make sure you clean/squeeze the filter media to get that old residue out. The tank water will stay cloudy if you don't clean out the filter, following a PP treatment.


All the best,

Eddie

Yes the treatment seemed to help the fish out. Good call on the filters since I did clean out the filters before the treatment but not after, so the cloudiness is probably just as you assume Eddie. The tank is starting to clear slowly but I will give the filter pads a good cleaning at the next WC.

I did see something that was a little unnerving earlier, a little white/clear poop on one of the fish. I'm not sure if it is just a reaction to the PP but I will keep my eyes on it. Maybe I should get some metro on order, just in case.

[Eddie]

Sounds good, the white poop might be nothing. Sometimes a bit of stress can cause the fish to drop a bit of the intestinal lining, especially if they've been off food for a bit.

Good clean water/foods, they should be back in shape. ;)


Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Watch your ammonia levels after a PP treatment, it can knock your filter for a loop. The haze you are seeing is "bug soup" a combination of oxidized organic materials. To clear up the water after a PP treatment in my pond, I use hydrogen peroxide (another oxidizer) and the water turns crystal clear. I have to go back and check my dosing amounts for a smaller volume of water such as a tank, but perhaps others here know the correct dosage.


In the future if you have an aging barell and know your going to to a PP treatment, you can treat the water in the aging barrel with a much higher dose of PP, then deactivate it after a few hours with hydrogen peroxide. Add air and let it sit overnight. Then, just prior to a PP treatment in your tank, do a water change with the pre-treated water. What this accomplishes is to lower the organic load in your tank prior to a treatment, helping to keep the PP "active" (not turn brown). Also, remove any and all decorations prior to treatment and give them a bleach bath while your performing the treatment. Nothing will live through the beach bath.