Parasites? What should i do? :/

[piannino]

Hi guys!

I am currently the owner of a 740 Litre planted aquarium including

8 discus
10 Corydoras
3 Plecostomus
6 Siamensis (siae)
24 Shrimps Amano/Red chery

and numerous plants.

Here some pics:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7651/dsc00136hw.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/dsc00136hw.jpg/)

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3323/1000387a.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/i/1000387a.jpg/) http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9392/1000375.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/i/1000375.jpg/)

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5015/1000380.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/1000380.jpg/) http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5986/1000382x.th.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/1000382x.jpg/)

My water parametres are:

ph: 6
Gh: 5
Kh:4
Amonia:0
No2:0

Temperature 28-29 Celcius
Co2 system installed(2bubbles/sec)
4 filters installed (3 external 1 internal) tottal 4.800l/h

Feeding 3 times a day: diet includes tetra bits,spiroulina, beefheart embeded with garlic,fishtamins, carot,apples and spinach.


My problem is that i cannot get RID of parasites in my aquarium no matter what i do...

I have tried to catch all my discus, put them to a quarantine and use tremazol(preziquantel) for 7 hours, the fish were perfect and the parasites were gone.

I waited for 2 weeks so the parasites in the main aquarium could die but still when i returned them back they started rubing on leafs and wood and on some of them i can see some white spots even though i am not sure if its a sign of ick or a sign of accidents that happen inside in their numerous fights :P

Another sign is that they shake theyr feathers some times kind of aggresively as if they try to get rid of something.

I cannot say that the situation is extreme. not all of them show such signs and their breath is normal aprox 60-70 breaths per minute.

In general the situation would be simple, all i had to do is raise 34 degrees and get rid of the parasites, but i have plants in there and other delicate fish that will not handle such temperature increase.

My question is..... Which medicine can i use that will NOT effect my biology, NOT kill my plants....Will not require a 50%+ water change and still manage to clean my aquarium of parasites!

Thanx!!

[pcsb23]

Have you identified the parasites?

tbh you are rather hoping for a silver bullet and there isn't one. Treating in a planted tank is difficult at the best of times and rarely 100% successful. There is always a risk to the occupants of any tank when treating, planted or other wise.

[piannino]

To be honest, i dont even know what kind of parasites they are.... i dont have this kind of knowledge, what i can see is their symptoms, some white spots, rubbing from time to time....There is also one incident where one discus lies on his side and lets another discus bite him....weird....I also forgot to mention my water is 3/4 RO 1/4 Can water (ph 7.4, gh, 8, kh 8)

[tcmemphisbbq]

Not related to your question but that tank woodwork looks GREAT to me :-)

[nc0gnet0]

Have you ever though about removing the plants and placing them in quarantine after a PP treatment (for the plants) and then treating the tank while the plants are removed?

It all might come down to which do you value more, your plants or your discus?

[piannino]

That would stop the growth of my plants, and the point is i believe it is possible to have healthy discus in a planted tank! i just need to figure out the way! there should be some meds that dont harm your plants :(:(

[nc0gnet0]

Why would removing the plants and placing them into another tank stop there growth? Your issue (assuming that it is a parasite problem) is more with the substrate and not the plants. And it is for this reason you need to treat the tank and not the discus in a quarantine tank. But then again, it may not even be parasitic, fish can flash for a variety of reasons, not all of them have to do with parasites. Do you have any pictures of the "white spots"?

[pcsb23]

To be honest, i dont even know what kind of parasites they are.... i dont have this kind of knowledge, what i can see is their symptoms, some white spots, rubbing from time to time....There is also one incident where one discus lies on his side and lets another discus bite him....weird....I also forgot to mention my water is 3/4 RO 1/4 Can water (ph 7.4, gh, 8, kh 8)mmm, the "where one discus lies on his side and lets another discus bite him." isn't quite as weird as you think, it is basically asking the other discus to remove the parasite. It does sound like some sort of parasite, though without taking a scrape and using a scope it is impossible really to determine which one.

If it is flukes then flubendazole or prazinquantel could work if used for a long enough duration, because it would need a real extended treatment because of the substrate then flubendazole would be the best bet imo/e. This would not affect the bio filtration.

All chemical treatments will have some affect on the bio and possibly the plants so it really is your choice. Potassium Permanganate, Formalin and Malachite Green are two options.

My advice would to make a call, which is more important, discus or plants?

[piannino]

Thank you very much for your responces, and for the compliment of my aquarium.

I was thinking to purchase this tommorow:

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/protozin.htm

It is supposed not to harm plants or biology, and maybe use API pimafix, melafix afterwards as a precaution for re-appearance.

The only reason i dont want to use preziquantel is because it requires a huge water change afterwards, which will surely harm my bio :(

What do u think of Protozin?

[piannino]

Thank you all for your replies and of course the compliment for my woodwork!

I am thinking to purchase this product tommorow

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/protozin.htm

Once i use this i am thinking to try api PIMAFIX/MELAFIX for precaution.

It is supposed not to harm biology, plants or the low fish in my aquarium.

I would go for preziquantel(tremazol) but i cant affort a 80% water change at the momment, it would surely harm my bio.

guys Plants or Discus??? DISCUS of course, but i dont wanna give up on my plants yet.


I would appreciate more oppinions, would help me decided on what to do thx!

[Eddie]

I'm gonna respond but first I just need to say that, that is one impressive tank!

[Eddie]

mmm, the "where one discus lies on his side and lets another discus bite him." isn't quite as weird as you think, it is basically asking the other discus to remove the parasite. It does sound like some sort of parasite, though without taking a scrape and using a scope it is impossible really to determine which one.

If it is flukes then flubendazole or prazinquantel could work if used for a long enough duration, because it would need a real extended treatment because of the substrate then flubendazole would be the best bet imo/e. This would not affect the bio filtration.

All chemical treatments will have some affect on the bio and possibly the plants so it really is your choice. Potassium Permanganate, Formalin and Malachite Green are two options.

My advice would to make a call, which is more important, discus or plants?

Ditto on Paul's recommendation.

[piannino]

Thank you for your compliments guys, i bought today a medicine called PROTOZIN of waterlife(malachite green and quinine sulphate), its supposed not to harm my biology/plants and cure any whitespot,fungus,oodinium,costiasis,trichodiniasis , i hope its gonna help :/

[pcsb23]

The bottle I have of Protozin says it contain Formalin, Malachite Green and copper suplphate - no mention of quinine sulphate. If your does contain copper then the shrimps could be at risk.

As with any chemical treatment it can affect the bio filter, however if the bio is mature it should be ok. Just keep an eye on the ammonia readings etc.

[Chad Hughes]

Just curious about your water changes. I know this doesn't address your current situation with suspected parasites, but I am wondering how often you change water and how much. In a planted tank, which I have kept for years, you still need to change water. Most of the time you can let a planted tank go for some time with minimal water changes. I would recommend at least a weekly water change of about 80% in the tank that you have posted pictures of. This tank is not densly planted and would still require a significant water change at least weekly, possibly bi weekly.

It is very possible that there is something in your water that is irritating the fish and it's not a parasite infestation. As stated above, without a scrape and a scope, there is no way to be certain. The first thing you want to do is address water quality issues. You mentioned that you removed the discus to a QT tank and treated with a parasite med for 7 hours and had good results. I've never seen any drug work like that in just 7 hours. Is it possible that placing them in 100% clean water was what really made the difference?

Just my $.02

Your tank is beautiful!

Best wishes!

[piannino]

Thx again for your replies,

Guys the first thing i did when i noticed something was wrong was a super extra 50% water change :D, and the situation did not improve. my water is 3/4 RO and 1/4 can water that goes through activated carbon.

In general though since my aquarium is big i dont do very frequent changes but a big change ones a week where i change aprox 35% of water (280litres).

As for protozin Paul, i was mistaken it contains: malachite Green,formaldehyde,copper sulphate so i hope my shrimps wont suffer.

Should i be aware for something else with protozin? i installed a 2nd air pump and lowered the lights so it does not dissolve. Any issue with co2? Will i need activated carbon to clean it afterwards?

i am kinda worried not to find dead fish in the morning :(!!!

p.s thx for the kind words regarding my tank! surely keeps you motivated to improve it! a presentation thread is made in the apropriate section(awaiting admin auth).

[Chad Hughes]

Thx again for your replies,

Guys the first thing i did when i noticed something was wrong was a super extra 50% water change :D, and the situation did not improve. my water is 3/4 RO and 1/4 can water that goes through activated carbon.

In general though since my aquarium is big i dont do very frequent changes but a big change ones a week where i change aprox 35% of water (280litres).

As for protozin Paul, i was mistaken it contains: malachite Green,formaldehyde,copper sulphate so i hope my shrimps wont suffer.

Should i be aware for something else with protozin? i installed a 2nd air pump and lowered the lights so it does not dissolve. Any issue with co2? Will i need activated carbon to clean it afterwards?

i am kinda worried not to find dead fish in the morning :(!!!

p.s thx for the kind words regarding my tank! surely keeps you motivated to improve it! a presentation thread is made in the apropriate section(awaiting admin auth).

I would do a bigger water change. More like 80% + weekly for a month or so. Is there a reason that you are using RO?

[piannino]

I am using RO to provide my discus with better quality water,

My can water is :

gh:10
kh:10
ph:8

I have tried to compare their colours in normal water and RO water and the truth is they trully "SHINE" in RO water, i am adding 1/4 can water for the minerals though for plants/discus.
I tottaly agree that 80% water change would be ideal but using RO water i cant do such a huge water change, its a waste of water which i value :D


If anyone knows the answers to the questions i posted above plz help!

Paul? eddie? :D

[kaceyo]

Thx again for your replies,

As for protozin Paul, i was mistaken it contains: malachite Green,formaldehyde,copper sulphate so i hope my shrimps wont suffer.



It's the copper sulphate that will harm/kill the shrimp. You should find something that has no copper, only formalin (formaldihyde) or formalin with Malachite green.

[pcsb23]

Copper sulphate is harmful to many types of inverts (shrimp are inverts!) so I would not use it. F&MG are fine, but I would stop using the CO2 during treatment.

For water changes to take full effect you need to persist with them, one only is only the start.

When I use F&MG I switch lights off, no carbon or other absorptive material in the filter, no UV. Temp no higher than 28C and an airstone. The green/blue colour goes after a few hours but the formalin is still active for some time after.

[piannino]

i guess i should kiss my shrimps goodbye :( damnit!

[JL15219]

Sorry about your troubles but your tank is very very nice!!!

[pcsb23]

i guess i should kiss my shrimps goodbye :( damnit!The copper sulphate content is very low in protozin, you may be lucky. It is a good shotgun med, now you have started with it I would continue (even at the risk of the shrimps). Follow the dosing protocol on the bottle. Good luck.

[piannino]

Thx Paul

A short update, its 3d day of treatment today the fish are fine, the plants are holding :P but i cant say that the symptoms have dissapeared, on the contrary i feel that even fish that did not rub before started to rub a LITTLE bit in very rare occasions. Maybe its because the parasites are reacting to the cure? or its too early? i wonder.

[nc0gnet0]

Maybe its because the parasites are reacting to the cure?

That is a possibility. Koi will react like this when infected with flukes and undergoing a PP treatment.......there trying to help dispatch the nasty little bugs.

[Eddie]

Also the chemicals can irritate the skin.....can't scratch the itch...so they rub, dart or flash.


Eddie

[piannino]

I thought so, once the 1 week treatment is over, will i have to use activated carbon? or the med will leave out of the system by itself? i am gonna do a water change of course but was just wondering about the remaining med...

[Eddie]

I thought so, once the 1 week treatment is over, will i have to use activated carbon? or the med will leave out of the system by itself? i am gonna do a water change of course but was just wondering about the remaining med...

Water changes and the use of activated carbon is fine.

[piannino]

Hey guys!

Its been a week and today i finished my 1 week course.

I can say that i dont have such major reactions like i used to have 1 week ago, but unfortunately in some of my discus there are still signs of parasites, they still rub and shake theyr bottom fins.

I used protozin of waterlife and i am started to get worried that the medicine was not for my kind of parasites...

I dont know what to do i am thinking to continue the treatment for 2 more days since i have some more med left, wait a week to see how they react and if the parasites dont go away then do a huge water change, let them rest for some time and try Tremazol(preziquantel).

What do you say? its really difficult for me to identify the parasite i dont have microscope and i really dont think i ll figure out the differences even though i studied hard today the parasite section :D

[piannino]

hehe nobody anything to say? :P am i that in trouble? :P

[piannino]

I continued the treatment, used the remaining med as well, hope they get better.

[kaceyo]

The Protozin should work on most any kinds of external parasites you'd run into. Prazi is basicly good for flukes but no other external parasites, so not much use in using it in your case as the protozin should have worked if they had flukes.
It could be something in the water or a reaction to the meds that has them still twitching. I'd give them a few days without meds and see how they do.

[piannino]

2nd day after the med, 30% water change done, still seing occasional rubs, i have noticed that they rub mostly in the evening hours and not in the morning kind of weird :/.

I changed my mind about presiquantel(tremazol) i am gonna wait 5-6 more days, and if i see thsi continues i ll raise temperature and risk my plants, i think 3-4 days of 34-35 degrees should kill any annoying visitors? what do u think?

I must clean out my fish and tank! gonna buy fresh discus soon! ordered 10 amazing discus :D Full spoted leopards and much more!

[piannino]

Some days passed, discus still looking the same after protozin, continuous rubs, shakes and dips.

Before trying a different med i think its time to risk the plants and raise temperature to 34-35 for some days , what do you say guys? Eddie your oppinion?

Thank you very much!

[georgarask]

Some days passed, discus still looking the same after protozin, continuous rubs, shakes and dips.

Before trying a different med i think its time to risk the plants and raise temperature to 34-35 for some days , what do you say guys? Eddie your oppinion?

Thank you very much!
Hello piannino ... :)

I think it is wrong to use medications without knowing the real problem! Rubs, shakes and dips does not mean that they suffer from parasites 100% ...

[kaceyo]

IMO, raising the temp is not the way to go with your issues. Throughout your treatments for external parasites did you you see any improvement, even temporary, in your fish? If it's ext parasites, you should have seen some improvement.

[piannino]

Ye i tottaly agree, but if you read above there are symptoms that are of parasites! discus biting each other, white spots, rubs, shakes, dips!

Maybe i am wrong, anyway the temperature is already 40 hours on 34 degrees, and to be honest i finally see improvement, question is how long should i keep it there?

Thx for the suggestions guys!!! appreciate them!

Hey giorgaras :D

[boonseong]

Just reading some of the symptoms. If it wasn't for the white spots, it could be breeding activity. (wishful thinking)

[piannino]

I think my discus are too young :) most of them are 7-9 cm, but curiously....the ones that areshaking are indeed the biggest ones 11 cm+ hmmmm i ll keep the temperature up for 3 days then start lowering it slowly , do u think it will be enough?

Its also true that the one that is shakins is all the time hiding in a corner like he is doing something there...

[Eddie]

I think my discus are too young :) most of them are 7-9 cm, but curiously....the ones that areshaking are indeed the biggest ones 11 cm+ hmmmm i ll keep the temperature up for 3 days then start lowering it slowly , do u think it will be enough?

Its also true that the one that is shakins is all the time hiding in a corner like he is doing something there...

Look at that, might just be breeding activity. ;)

[piannino]

No, after watching for some more time it is not a breeding activity after all, most of the disus are better now, but one of them has turned black, and hides in a corner, i think i ll keep the temperature a little bit more, maybe he has some kind of flue or disease. Its the first time i get something so complicated going, parasite symptoms that did not pass with protozins, and after 5 days of high temperature and still no improvement.


Wow , this seems like a dead end...

[Eddie]

Its because you are having to deal with the illness in a community/show tank and a big one. Treatments are best carried out in hospital tanks, depending on the problem.

Raising the temperature can sometimes make things worse.


Eddie

[piannino]

I Absolutely agree with you, thing is i HAD to do the treatment in the tank to "clean it" from all the infections that i brought, my mistake was that i trusted some plant cuts from another aquarium and threw in immidiately some small fish (corydoras,shrimps) i bought from a shop, this surely brought some infection to my aquarium.

Question is how many days should i try the temperature treatment? is there some period that if you dont see any results u should just stop it cause it wont help? i dont like torturing my fish.

Weird thing is also that despite the huge temperature 34 Celcius nobody from the small fish dies :/ seems my aquarium enviroment is that good that i cant kill anything in there :PPPP

Something last that i discovered is that i had extreme aeration in my aquarium and very intense lighting for an excessive period, that should be the reason they shake so much even though they are young. 12 hours excessive light per day surely tired my discus, i reduced it to 8 as of yesterday and stoped 2 out of the three air pumps i am using, it should be a problem.

[piannino]

1 week of 34 degrees celcious and i must admit that i dont see major improvements, still rubbing and diving, biting wood, one disc letting another one bite it...bad thing is i have 9 discus in there and out of 9, 7 have those symptoms its time to lower the temperature though else everyone in there will die, 2 dead coridoras today :(

i think i ll give them a break and just let this thing whatever is in there evolve so i know what it is to fight it properly, i dont know what else to try to help them, first time i try so many methods and simply NONE works :( if anyone has any idea its the best time to share, kinda desperate :(

[georgarask]

Watch for low levels of oxygen in water ... (with 34 oC is very dangerous) ...