Fry Die Off

[DiscusChris]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Found 2 dead fry yesterday, found 6 more just now. Fry are 1 month old and eating well, they are still in the same tank as their parents. Parents are also doing well. Fry are exactly 4 weeks old, 3cm in length. I have had 0 deaths in this tank until now, thats why I am concerned. Am I over reacting? These fish seemed to all be healthy and good sized.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

dead fry, no symptoms of problems
(one fry was drifting around in the water, like he couldnt control his movements. I think he was 90% dead though, just adding this to be thorough)


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Nothing yet, I have formalin and metro on hand.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55g tank, 6mo age, 100 3cm fish and 2 adults



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

-25% daily + 10% 3 times daily(1 hr after every other feeding)= 65%.
-Tank has been running for 6 months, current adults in it for 7 weeks, current fry in it for 4 weeks.
-Barebottom
-Do not age water, tap ph is 6.6 and temperature matched, then Primed and mixed few minutes before adding

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 85

- ph 6.4

- ammonia reading 0.0

- nitrite reading 0.0

- nitrate reading 2.5

- well water No

- municipal water Yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No


Thanks in advance for any responses

[roundfishross]

remove the parents and dose lightly with pp(pink water) for four to six hours. had this problem recently lost a couple weak ones during treatment but all the rest are doing great now.they were eating within an hour after final water change and no more loss!!

[DiscusChris]

I use prime in my water changes, doesnt that ruin PP?

Should I remove the parents to another tank before the treatment? What exactly does PP treat, and since they are all in the same tank why wouldnt I do it to the parents too?

Where do you find PP anyways? Thanks for the fast reply Ross. Any others with input?


tyty

[JaredP]

I mentioned it on AAAA but here is the link as well, based on the reading Im doing, it is likely 4 week syndrome, but Im still learning what that means!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=64047

[DiscusChris]

I mentioned it on AAAA but here is the link as well, based on the reading Im doing, it is likely 4 week syndrome, but Im still learning what that means!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=64047

The fry are with the parents still, and according to the link, "four week syndrome" occurs in fry that are removed from the parents before 2 weeks. :confused::confused:

[roundfishross]

from what i have been told its a bactieral gill issue,dont exactly know how it treats this issue but i works for me. i also think it stems from overcrowding and less than superb water quality. after they get over it once they never seem to have these problems again ime.

hth

[Eddie]

I just went through the four week deal myself, Trichlorfon was the fix. I was doing twice daily 100% water changes every day and big time cleaning of the tank and filter, still lost fry. Almost tossed the whole batch but after using Anti-Fluke Life Bearer, they are back on track. ;)


oops, almost forgot...Prime does affect PP

Eddie

[DiscusChris]

Eddie,
would formalin work against flukes the same way the trichlorfon does? I dont know that Ill be able to find any of that locally, Im going to call around today when I get off work.

Lost 5 more over the night, up to 13 :confused:

[MostlyDiscus]

Light bath in potassium permag should do it. It works on flukes and baterical issues

[Eddie]

Eddie,
would formalin work against flukes the same way the trichlorfon does? I dont know that Ill be able to find any of that locally, Im going to call around today when I get off work.

Lost 5 more over the night, up to 13 :confused:

You can use PP as Ed suggested but I'm afraid to use PP on fry. Formalin did not do the trick for me. :(

[roundfishross]

i tried clout and it was to no effect but the pp worked for me. i have never tried this on fry smaller than a nickle

[DiscusChris]

Alright, the male and female have clamped fins so isnt that a sign of flukes? Im dosing metro right now, can I go ahead and hit them with some formalin? I gave them a small formalin dose today with no adverse reactions.

Also, will salting the water help?


Thanks all

[Eddie]

Without scoping them, we really don't know what the problem is. Clamped fins can be anything, any external irritation. Could be a water issue also.

If you dose formalin, the metro will be eliminated or rendered ineffective.

[DiscusChris]

Without scoping them, we really don't know what the problem is. Clamped fins can be anything, any external irritation. Could be a water issue also.

If you dose formalin, the metro will be eliminated or rendered ineffective.

Good to know, ty. How about the salt?

[Eddie]

Good to know, ty. How about the salt?

Clean water and no salt at this point.

Eddie

[DiscusChris]

aye aye thanks for the help

[DiscusChris]

I hit them with formalin twice yesterday, each time after a large WC. 2 ML per 36 gallons of water.

I was surprised to find only 1 of the smaller weak ones dead this morning, the rest were schooling around with the parents. They are nice and bright and responsive today. The parents have unclamped their gills and side fins so I think the large water changes combined with the formalin is working well.

Ill keep doing this for the rest of the week, thanks for everyones help and advice!

[Eddie]

I hit them with formalin twice yesterday, each time after a large WC. 2 ML per 36 gallons of water.

I was surprised to find only 1 of the smaller weak ones dead this morning, the rest were schooling around with the parents. They are nice and bright and responsive today. The parents have unclamped their gills and side fins so I think the large water changes combined with the formalin is working well.

Ill keep doing this for the rest of the week, thanks for everyones help and advice!

Sounds good, glad the formalin did the trick! ;)

All the best,

Eddie

[darkknight87]

Hey Chris,
Glad everyone is doing better now!

[JaredP]

Great news! My Scribblet from the same parents was acting weird last night, maybe he knew his little brothers and sisters where feeling sick.

[mmorris]

I think the large water changes combined with the formalin is working well.


I suspect the wc did the trick since you were only doing 55% daily on a tank with a high bio-load. I do two 80% wc daily on fry tanks and I recommend you move the parents out. You don't need the additional bio-load in that tank with so many fry. Make sure the wc temp matches exactly - like within a degree. Ph must match as well. If you have the problem again and there are no obvious symptoms, I would recommend one drop acriflavin per gallon water to knock back some of the background bacteria, assuming you are doing more wc's.

[DiscusChris]

Yeah, Im doing 1 50% change, plus 3 25% changes every day now. I lowered the water down to 3/4 of the tank size so it makes everything a LOT easier.

I still wonder about the bioload being the problem for this disaster, I never saw any ammonia or nitrites with the fry in the tank, always just a little nitrate. This had to me something else, Im guessing flukes but who knows now that its over.

[Eddie]

Yeah, Im doing 1 50% change, plus 3 25% changes every day now. I lowered the water down to 3/4 of the tank size so it makes everything a LOT easier.

I still wonder about the bioload being the problem for this disaster, I never saw any ammonia or nitrites with the fry in the tank, always just a little nitrate. This had to me something else, Im guessing flukes but who knows now that its over.

Another good idea, is to rinse out the filter sponge daily. In my case, I was doing twice daily 100% and still had the 4 week syndrome (suspect flukes). :o

Eddie

[DiscusChris]

Im still not happy with my tank, found 2 more dead fry this morning. Im going to my lfs after work today and getting what you recommended on the 1st page Eddie. Ill do a 90% W/C and then dose the meds.

1. What temp do you recommend while treating these? The parents are coming out as soon as I get my poret from hans, it should be in sometime today or tomorrow at the latest.

2. I should treat the parents too, right? They are in the same water as the fry, so I would think they carry whatever is killing the babies. Im moving them to a divided tank with another pair in it, and I would rather not infect them too.

Thoughts?

[Eddie]

Im still not happy with my tank, found 2 more dead fry this morning. Im going to my lfs after work today and getting what you recommended on the 1st page Eddie. Ill do a 90% W/C and then dose the meds.

1. What temp do you recommend while treating these? The parents are coming out as soon as I get my poret from hans, it should be in sometime today or tomorrow at the latest.

2. I should treat the parents too, right? They are in the same water as the fry, so I would think they carry whatever is killing the babies. Im moving them to a divided tank with another pair in it, and I would rather not infect them too.

Thoughts?

Are the parents still with the fry?

Definitely try to get away with not treating. Try upping the water changes to 2 times a day, wiping all surfaces of the tank and objects in the tank prior the the water change and squeeze out the filter in the drained tank water, with each water change.

Treating with Trichlorfon was HARD on the fry, killed 3 and set the whole batch back 2 weeks through treatment. Its not a one shot one kill treatment. I hit them every 3 days, for 3 treatments. Took them a while to gain their appetites back but they are all good now.


Eddie

[brewmaster15]

Hi Chris,
I'll offer you a suggestion from another direction...Personal experiences here... You never mentioned what you are feeding the fry or how much/number of times etc... but I would increase the feedings per day of the fry...They may be pigging out when you feed them because they are very hungry....At the size they are if you don't feed them adequately and often enough they can gorge themselves when you do feed them and it can kill them....

Why I think this is a likely scenario..
1) no problems until very recently...if it was flukes...your die offs would have been much sooner when the fry were smaller...same for any other parasite.

2) Parents clamped..sign of over eating by the fry in many cases...it can however lead to a bacterial infection...

My guess is you'll start seeing the parents looking chewed up soon again...those clamped fins you saw earlier were not a sign of flukes, IMO....I think the fry are over eating the parents.

Can you post some pics and describe your feeding routine?

Hth,
al

[Larry Bugg]

Chris
I got two pieces of poret from Hans on Tues (quarter size pieces for a 55) and haven't used either one yet. You can have one of them now if you don't want to wait. Let me know.


Im still not happy with my tank, found 2 more dead fry this morning. Im going to my lfs after work today and getting what you recommended on the 1st page Eddie. Ill do a 90% W/C and then dose the meds.

1. What temp do you recommend while treating these? The parents are coming out as soon as I get my poret from hans, it should be in sometime today or tomorrow at the latest.

2. I should treat the parents too, right? They are in the same water as the fry, so I would think they carry whatever is killing the babies. Im moving them to a divided tank with another pair in it, and I would rather not infect them too.

Thoughts?

[DiscusChris]

Al,
you got it. It all makes sense now. I spent all day sunday at the hospital, and missed all of my mid day meals. When I came home, I gave a regular BH & flake feeding, only they hadnt eaten in 12 hours. I noticed the 1st deaths sunday night, a few hours after my feeding. These deaths TOTALLY could have been from the babies pigging out after not being fed for so long. That would explain so much! My over reactions and chemicals probably killed the rest.

Ok, new game plan. Im going to go home today, scrub down the tank and do a giant water change, feed a small amount and wait and see what happens. If all goes well, I will do several additional small feedings and another 90% water change before I go to bed. If there are still deaths in the morning, I will go back to the meds Eddie suggested.

Its so frustrating leaving for work in the morning when you know there is so much to be done with your fish. Ive never had these problems before, hopefully this is only a feeding issue and not something way worse. Ill post some pics tonight when I get them situated.

Thank you so much for everyones help, I can honestly say that without this site and its members I would have given this hobby up a long time ago ;)


Larry,
if my poret isnt at my door by tomorrow, which it should be, I will take you up on that offer. Hans said it should be here today or tomorrow so Ill keep my fingers crossed

[DiscusChris]

Alright, here they are. Did a small feed when I got home, changed some water and everyone is doing great. Ill feed 3-4 more times tonight, small amounts, and do a very large w/c before bed. Theyre 3.5 CM and 32 days free swimming as of today.

My camera is junk BTW

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/cttwarnock/Discus/P1030001.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/cttwarnock/Discus/P1030009.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/cttwarnock/Discus/P1030013.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/cttwarnock/Discus/P1030015.jpg

[Eddie]

Good to hear you got it worked out without having to treat them. They look great!


All the best,

Eddie

[Elite Aquaria]

I would separate those fry or they are going to tear up your pair. They are getting a little large to still be with the parents.

[DiscusChris]

Theyre getting moved today Dan. I ordered some poret from Hans on Tuesday and it should be here any minute.

I like your website btw!


-Chris