Stunting Discus

[srusso]

So I was looking at the front page and noticed the water chemistry section... It only notes Nitrates as the cause for stunting discus... is that true?

If my planted tank ALWAYS shows 0 (zero) and I mean zero nitrates at all times then theoretically it would be impossible to stunt discus in my tank... based on the water chemistry, that is...

[mjs020294]

You can't have plants with zero nitrates. If you keep the nitrates between 5-10 the discus will be fine and the plants will grow nicely, especially with some root tabs in there as well.

I am pretty sure the Discus can be stunted for many more reasons than high nitrates. I have eight juveniles that started out more or less the same size. One has grow 2+ inches, two have grown 1.75 inches, two have grown over an inch but the other three have hardly grown at all. The smallest three happen to eat the least.

[rickztahone]

You can't have plants with zero nitrates. If you keep the nitrates between 5-10 the discus will be fine and the plants will grow nicely, especially with some root tabs in there as well.

I am pretty sure the Discus can be stunted for many more reasons than high nitrates. I have eight juveniles that started out more or less the same size. One has grow 2+ inches, two have grown 1.75 inches, two have grown over an inch but the other three have hardly grown at all. The smallest three happen to eat the least.

what I heard was that you could achieve zero nitrates in a fully planted tank. Some people have to add nitrates into their water column from my understanding. Please (anyone) correct me if im wrong here. Wrt to stunting, nitrates is a concern for sure but not the primary factor in stunting discus.

[Eddie]

Nitrates might have some effect on discus growth, but I remember posts from individuals in the past about them having high nitrates straight from tap. They had HUGE fish.

If this was even remotely true, than all of us could load up our filters and sumps with nitrate reducing media and the fish would be giant.

Nitrates are not the key.........its something much more.

Eddie

[rickztahone]

OP, you have to keep in mind what causes high nitrates:
Messy foods e.g., beef heart
Overfeeding
Not enough water changes.

These other things I just described would be the general contributing factors behind the high nitrate disclaimer you saw. HTH

[mjs020294]

what I heard was that you could achieve zero nitrates in a fully planted tank.

Not sure if it can be done but it would be difficult.


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=24469

Nitrogen is constantly being added to the aquarium in the form of Ammonia or Ammonium, NH3 or NH4, that substance all fish keepers love to hate. Luckily plants are able to use ammonia and ammonium very easily. In fact, a well-balanced and healthy system will use ammonia/ammonium the second it becomes available. With the generally low bioloads found in most discus tanks the amount of nitrogen made available this way are too low making supplementation necessary. The target level for NO3 is 5-10ppm.

[srusso]

I believe I have that tank... I have have my water tested by 2 lfs all the time as well as my own tester gives the same results. My plants grow very well, I do have tabs in the sand but I though they weren't doing anything... guess I maybe wrong on this point... no other dosing. I do not use co2 and I get huge leaves. Simple plants only melon sward, anubias etc..

[mmorris]

Nitrates get the attention only because nitrates can be measured. Stunted discus most likely, at some point in their growth, received insufficient nutrients. It may be that they were fed poor quality food, or not enough food. It may be that the discus were not eating because they were ill. Poor water quality can stress them so that a pathogen can take over. Poor water quality may provide the perfect environment for those pathogens. Just because your test kit reads '0' nitrates does not mean the water quality is good.

[babillba]

Nitrates might have some effect on discus growth, but I remember posts from individuals in the past about them having high nitrates straight from tap. They had HUGE fish.

If this was even remotely true, than all of us could load up our filters and sumps with nitrate reducing media and the fish would be giant.

Nitrates are not the key.........its something much more.

Eddie

Not a scientist, biologist or anything else, just offering my two cents. COuldn't stunting be a Darwinian event as well, just part of the natural process, the whole survival of the fittest. Some dogs born to great, long lined pairs grow bigger than others, runts in litters, etc. Whle i do not think this is the complete deal, could it not be a part of it, that some discus simply are going to reach a peak smaller than others?

[mmorris]

You might be referring to runts, rather than stunted discus.

[Eddie]

You might be referring to runts, rather than stunted discus.

Ditto

babillba, there are runts and stunts. Stunts have the genetics to grow to full size but have been set back from environment, diet, disease.

[babillba]

Ditto

babillba, there are runts and stunts. Stunts have the genetics to grow to full size but have been set back from environment, diet, disease.

Thanks for that clarification. Have heard of stunted discus before, but always thought in terms of runts. Now I am understanding the idea behind this better.

[babillba]

I am guessing here that unless you buy mature adults already, there really is no way of guaranteeing you'll not end with a stunted going with 6, 8, 10 juvies.

Would I be correct in this assumption, that even if you spend days examining juvies, you select the healthiest specimens from a breeder you know and trust who has allowed you to choose, you have seen the parents, etc., etc., etc. All things being ideal in your selection of juveniles still could lead to you ending up with a stunted few?

Would you guys agree or am I oversimplifying here?

[Eddie]

I am guessing here that unless you buy mature adults already, there really is no way of guaranteeing you'll not end with a stunted going with 6, 8, 10 juvies.

Would I be correct in this assumption, that even if you spend days examining juvies, you select the healthiest specimens from a breeder you know and trust who has allowed you to choose, you have seen the parents, etc., etc., etc. All things being ideal in your selection of juveniles still could lead to you ending up with a stunted few?

Would you guys agree or am I oversimplifying here?

Generally but not always there will be the some fish that do not grow as well or fall behind. And yes, they can sometimes have a growth spurt but if they are falling too far behind, they are generally culled. At least thats in my experience anyways. Not all fry (discus) are created equal. If someone is distributing fry at a very very young age, there is no way to tell really. Most experienced breeders have already gone through the culling stages to cull the runts.

Eddie

[babillba]

Generally but not always there will be the some fish that do not grow as well or fall behind. And yes, they can sometimes have a growth spurt but if they are falling too far behind, they are generally culled. At least thats in my experience anyways. Not all fry (discus) are created equal. If someone is distributing fry at a very very young age, there is no way to tell really. Most experienced breeders have already gone through the culling stages to cull the runts.

Eddie

Thanks. Eddie. The more I hear from this site the more I like.