Questions about building a sump

[MikeF]

I have 2 question that I have not been able to find an answer to. I just bought a 240 gallon aquarium off of craigslist. The tank was set up as a saltwater tank with overflows on one side. I would like to build my own sump for this tank. My question is, if I build a sump out of an aquarium, what size aquarium would be suitable for a tank of this size? My other question is, what pump would work best for a tank of this size? I was looking at having a turn over rate of water 10x per hour. Thanks for any replys.

[jeffh2]

I would do at least a 30 gal sump with dual 1" overflows. I have this setup with a mag 950 pump and have great results.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j196/jeffh2/m_fishtank048.jpg

[dawrtw]

I don't have a formula, but once having belonged to a reef forum I saw a lot of sumps. Most who had anything over 100 gallons would use a 55 gallon for their sump. Some even used a 75.

You get the chance to increase your water volumn plus create a place to grow more bacteria.

[Apistomaster]

there are so many ways to go about build wet/dry filters in sumps which may be done very cheaply or more expensively yet each performs the job fine.

In this first set of photos I show how I used 2 nested 40+ gal plastic storage containers as the sump and 2- 4 gal rectangular buckets as my wet/dry towers.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Equipment001.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Equipment002.jpg

In this next example I converted a 29 gallon high tank to be a wet/dry filter and sump combination.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/125sysdesign0002.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/125sysdesign0008.jpg

I use a larger mat of pre-filter material and as much wet/dry media as possible compared to the designs of some. What each of my designs share in common is a "T" in the outlet from the pump to divert about 75 gph through a PhosBan Reactor which I fill with the organic scavaging resin, SeaChem's Purigen. This is a luxury and is not essential. It's easier to build in these features in the beginning so if you every have the desire to use one the plumbing is already their.
Each of these designs uses the same water pump. I happen to prefer the MagDrive 9.5, a 950 gph pump because it has a favorable capacity to watts used ratio and is a quality pump which isn't too expensive. It is also a quiet water pump. My wet/Dry filters are my display tank heart/lung machine but I also use an Eheim Classic #2217 canister filter. I use the cheaper version on my 75 gal tank and my more elaborate design is my 125 gal tank's main filter. This latter filter has about 12 gallons capacity for media. The more media the greater the available surface area for the nitrifying bacteria.

None of my tanks are drilled for over flow so I had to use commercial over flow siphons which are expensive. I used a Marineland Tidepool Overflow siphon on my 75 gal and a CPR#1200. These added about $80 to $120 more respectively but even so, I still have higher capacity filters for much less money than if I had bought commercially available systems.
CPR already recommends the use of Aqualifter vacuum pumps to prefent add-on overflow siphons from breaking the flow but the Tidepool overflow had to be modified to receive the suction hose but having an Aqualifter used with over flow siphons makes the filters automatically restart without flooding after a water change or after a power outage. Only $12 for increased reliability.
I use a material called BioFill(www.aquaticeco.com, cat # BF250) as my media. It is simply white PVC shavings but they provide among the highest surface areas per cubic unit than any other bio-media where mixing air is important.
Here is how it compares with biospheres per cu foot:
BioFill = 250 sq ft of surface area. Cost per cu ft $49
One inch Biospheres 160 sq feet. Cost per cu ft $41

[MikeF]

Thanks for the posts. I have looked into the MagDrive, but the gph is only 950. Would I not need something around 2400 gph, for a tank that is a 240? Or do I even need something rated with this many gph?

[Darrell Ward]

Thanks for the posts. I have looked into the MagDrive, but the gph is only 950. Would I not need something around 2400 gph, for a tank that is a 240? Or do I even need something rated with this many gph?

No, you don't need 2400gph for a 240. I have a 240 with a 55 gal. sump with 2- 1" returns. I use 1 Eheim 1262 pump rated at 910gph for each return, and it's plenty. I use to run 1 external pump for both returns rated at 1600gph and it worked fine as well, but I changed it because the Eheims make much less noise (you can't even hear them running in the sump), and they use much less electricity.

[Darrell Ward]

All you really need in that sump is a few pieces of Poret foam wedged across the sump for mech. and bio. I tried it, and it works great. Hans uses this as well. You can find details on the foam guy's website. http://www.swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html

[MikeF]

Since this will be my first sump, I do have another question. This tank is 74 inches long. It only has one overflow at one end. Will the water circulate enough for proper filtration, or should I use one of my canisters on the otherend to get the water movement?

[Apistomaster]

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think a MagDrive 9.5 is the best value in terms of volume, electrical energy efficiency and quietness. It is sufficient for your wet dry filter which ever design you end up going with.
But I also like to use an Eheim canister filter with the wet/dry filter. I set mine up so each filter is returning the water at opposite ends. This sets up enough turbulence to pick up most of the dirt yet the flows coming in from opposite ends tend to cancel each other out so the Discus are not fighting a strong direction. Another design feature I incorporate into the PVC pipe return is to divide the flow using a "T" near the surface and a 90* ELL" at the lower end. I do not glue these into place so I can aim them any direction I choose. This divided flow helps reduce the strong directional flows only a single outlet would create,
If you use a MagDrive 9.5 and a ~300 gph canister filter you get the benefits of each filter design and about a 1200 gph flow through rate which is fine for a 240 gal Discus tank. Reef tanks do better if the flows are about 10X their volume. My Discus tanks have about 10X their volume flow through but that much is not really necessary.

[MikeF]

Thanks for the great information guys, This is where I always turn to if I have any questions. You all are such a great help. I will try and start on project sump this weekend, and see how things go.

[Darrell Ward]

Since this will be my first sump, I do have another question. This tank is 74 inches long. It only has one overflow at one end. Will the water circulate enough for proper filtration, or should I use one of my canisters on the otherend to get the water movement?


Tank turnover is first limited to the size of the bulkhead, not just the size of the return pump. What is the size of the bulkhead? If you only have one overflow at one end, it's probably best to have one return placed at the opposite end from the overflow to create a current to push the tank volume toward the overflow. This would eliminate dead spots at one end. A ball valve can be installed in the return line to control the flow/current. Discus are fine with some current as long as it's not strong enough to force them to fight it. The same thing could also be done with a spray bar. The spray bar would be used on the return, and a circulation pump used on the opposite tank wall to direct water toward the overflow. Pumps such as a Hydor Koralia 3 are ideal for this. The magnetic mount allows them to be placed at any depth to fine tune your system.

[calihawker]

BioFill = 250 sq ft of surface area. Cost per cu ft $49:shocked::shocked::shocked:

I made that much, or more I think, out of a length of 3/4 sch. 40 pvc! a couple bucks.
I need to start making it and selling it to my friends here at SD:D

I use a 30 gallon sump also with a magdrive 9.5 on a 300 gallon tank. Maybe a little undersize for the tank but I also have a couple canisters with just sponges.

[MikeF]

Tank turnover is first limited to the size of the bulkhead, not just the size of the return pump. What is the size of the bulkhead? If you only have one overflow at one end, it's probably best to have one return placed at the opposite end from the overflow to create a current to push the tank volume toward the overflow. This would eliminate dead spots at one end. A ball valve can be installed in the return line to control the flow/current. Discus are fine with some current as long as it's not strong enough to force them to fight it. The same thing could also be done with a spray bar. The spray bar would be used on the return, and a circulation pump used on the opposite tank wall to direct water toward the overflow. Pumps such as a Hydor Koralia 3 are ideal for this. The magnetic mount allows them to be placed at any depth to fine tune your system.

Hey Darrell,

First of all, please excuse my ignorance of this topic. Taking sumps is like a listening to a foreign language. I just dont understand it. My tank has 3 boxes at one end. The middle box is the overflow box. It has 2, 2inch bulkheads at the bottom of the tank. The overflow box is probably 22 inches by 4 inches wide, and the top of the overflow is 4 inches lower than the rim of the tank. I then have 2 additional boxes on each side of the overflow. These boxes are 4 inches wide by 4 iches wide, Im guessing. Both of these additional boxes have 1, one inch holes drilled into the bottom. Im guessing these are for the returns, but not sure? Would you set the return on the opposite side then, to push the water to the overflow box? or just set up the sump on one end and run my FX5 on the other side?

[Darrell Ward]

Hey Darrell,

First of all, please excuse my ignorance of this topic. Taking sumps is like a listening to a foreign language. I just dont understand it. My tank has 3 boxes at one end. The middle box is the overflow box. It has 2, 2inch bulkheads at the bottom of the tank. The overflow box is probably 22 inches by 4 inches wide, and the top of the overflow is 4 inches lower than the rim of the tank. I then have 2 additional boxes on each side of the overflow. These boxes are 4 inches wide by 4 iches wide, Im guessing. Both of these additional boxes have 1, one inch holes drilled into the bottom. Im guessing these are for the returns, but not sure? Would you set the return on the opposite side then, to push the water to the overflow box? or just set up the sump on one end and run my FX5 on the other side?

Wow! That sounds like some "Frankintank" LOL! It would help tremendously if you could post a picture of the back of the tank, looking down at it from above.

[MikeF]

I will try and post a picture or two tonight when I get home. I have never posted a picture before, so it might take a time or two.

[MikeF]

Ok. I tried to download pictures, but they are to big. How do you resize them?

[Apistomaster]

Upload your photos on a free photo hosting site like photobucket and the copy the image line and paste it to your post. This is the most versatile method since all the photos are automatically resized to the parameters used on different forums which vary a lot. Using a photohosting site eliminates any need for you to resize your photos.

[pcsb23]

... I was looking at having a turn over rate of water 10x per hour. ...too much imo. discus much prefer slow moving water. On my system I have a turn over of no more than three times per hour.

[MikeF]

too much imo. discus much prefer slow moving water. On my system I have a turn over of no more than three times per hour.

Only 3 x huh? Ok. I always thought that they needed much more. Also thanks for the tip Larry about resizing. I think that I may be getting this sump thing figured out. I did alot of researching today while at work. HAHA. Now if I can get the plumbing without it leaking, I will be set.

[Apistomaster]

I prefer my Discus display tanks to have about a 10X per hour exchange rate using a large wet/dry filter plus an Eheim Classic 2217.
It isn't the volume of the turn over that matters to discus but in how that water is returned. If the returns are diffuse, deflected, counteracted then no strong directional flow exists despite how large the flows may be.
More flow is better from the biological filtration and means the water clarity is likely to be be better. All it takes is a little ingenuity to manage the flow in such a way as to not cause the Discus to be fighting a steady strong current.
In my 75 gal the nominal gross turnover rate is 15 X per hour and the same filter in the 125 is about 10 x per hour. Many Discus have been grown out in these tanks over the years.

Even in my 40 gal breeder fry grow out tanks where I use two Sponge filters the flow from one is driven by an airlift so I don't know the exact amount of water it turns over per hour but my guess is about 75 gph and the other sponge filter is run by a MaxJet 600 power head at 160 gph. I aim the power head to blow into a side panel so the flow is non-directional and the discus can feed in peace. The flow is ~5 x the volume of the tank per hour.

[Apistomaster]

Just a thought experiment but if wild discus are in a Lagos connected to the main stream, then just how much flow through would you expect is occurring?
Some of these side lakes are very large and some are not and there is no on right answer but I suspect that the flow through is substantial as these are not isolated lakes but side streams of slower water connected in many ways to the feeder main river.
Furthermore, Discus spawn when the river has overflowed into the flood plain and at that time the flow past rate of a huge volume of water may be many dozens to 100's of times that of the static volume. The flooded forest provides sufficient current breaks that the actual effective flow rate is not great locally but still huge in terms of the daily volume.

[Eddie]

too much imo. discus much prefer slow moving water. On my system I have a turn over of no more than three times per hour.


Agree 100%!

[nc0gnet0]

Flow is good.......Current is bad. The more flow you have the better mechanical filtration you get. On the bio end its a bit more like a parabolic curve, more is typically better, but you reach a point of diminishing returns. Too much flow can lead to insufficient contact time, which itself can be offset by increased media capacity.

Think of a sump like a canister filter with the lid off. You just have to take steps to insure you don't overfill it, otherwise you got a mess on your hands. Pre-drilled tanks (like yours) help alot to pevent this; providing you don't overfill your tank, an overflow is not possible.

Many, many different designs and opinions on which is the best way to go. Myself, I prefer to run dual return pumps and have 2 rio 14hf's running at 950 gallons per hour each. Its not neccesary, but I like the redundancy and better control over dead spots.

I also add alot more mechanical filtration to my sumps than most, mine has dual 1 1/4 pvc feeds, each has its own 25 micron sock over them. This helps to catch debris and prevent an accumulation of large pieces of organic material in whatever bio material you choose. The socks aren't expensive, and can be used over and over again. It does add more service/work as you will be replacing these about once every three to four days. But this only takes me less than a minute. Then I take the dirty sock, spray it off with a garden hose, soak in bleach water over night, rinse and let air dry. It helps to have 6-8 socks if your gonna go this route.

After the water is pre-filtered thru the socks in my sump, the water fills the first chamber until it overflows onto an angled spill plate which is drilled with numerous holes. The water flows over the spill plate and trickles down through the holes and over my biomaterial (bio-balls and matila mat on top). I like my sumps to have 1/3 of the bio-material submerged, others like to have all of it above water. Either will work, but in a power/pump failure you will lose your bio quicker if it is all above the water level, as it will dry out.

Where the first divided in my sump (typically you have two, making a three chambered sump) is solid pvc forcing the water over the top, the second divider is made of egg crate on the bottom 1/3, this allows the water to flow under and into the third chamber. this keeps the water level in the second chamber where I want it. The third chamber houses nothing more than my pumps.

Rather than just return the water back into the tank I choose to add even a second element of mechanical filtration. I used two Omni whole house inline water filters (you can pick them up on sale for aout 10 bucks) and run 5 micron cartridges in each. This actually cuts down on my flow quite a bit, probably by about 1/3. And then I run on one line (eventually i will get around to doing both) an 18 watt UV sterilizer (inline).


It sounds alot more complicated than it is. I like apostomasters idea and how he runs purigen. Myself I just use my fx5 for that. Which brings me to another point......

I see your going to incorporate an fx5 in your filtration. Good idea. The one drawback of the sumps is they pull there water from the top of the water column. Unless you got alot of current, which you don't want with discus, that means alot of your solids will remian in the bottom of the water column. And doing 50% water changes on a 240 gallon tank daily is rather impractical for most people. With that in mind make sure you set the intake for the f5 about 5-7 inches from the bottom. And don't get to carried away using the fine filter pads in the fx5, you will find they plug very easily with this filter, as one of its strengths (as well as one of its drawbacks) is that it has virtually no "blow by" or bypass. What will happen with too fine of filter material in the fx5 is you will lose flow and get a tank full of micro bubbles.

[Apistomaster]

What the comments on this thread really reveal is that there are many ways to keep and breed discus successfully and one can adopt the style of filtration flow which works well for them but that there is no one right answer.

[Condor]

I use a larger mat of pre-filter material and as much wet/dry media as possible compared to the designs of some. What each of my designs share in common is a "T" in the outlet from the pump to divert about 75 gph through a PhosBan Reactor which I fill with the organic scavaging resin, SeaChem's Purigen. This is a luxury and is not essential. It's easier to build in these features in the beginning so if you every have the desire to use one the plumbing is already their.


Larry, I have a question about your phosban reactor.
-What size is the reactor?
-How much purigen do you put in it?
-Do you put the purigen in loose or in a bag?

I just got a 150 and it seems like the sponges that retain the media have very large pores, and I was wondering if you have a problem with the media getting washed out of the reactor.

Thanks, Adrian

ps. Sorry if I took this off topic a little.:o

[Apistomaster]

PhosBan Reactors are a proprietary design intended for a coarser media.
I had to use polypropylene felt pads top and bottom. The media must be allowed to freely tumble in the upwelling currents from the bottom if you are to exposed the most potential media surface area to the flow. These reactors become biological filters in short order and the bacteria eventually cause clumping of the media and channelizes flows. When that happens you know you waited too long to clean the reactor and add recharged or new media.
I only used this system when I was keeping Heckel Discus for almost 5 years. I did include a provision in the latter wet/dry filter design in case I wanted to use a reactor with Purigen but for the most part it is easier to do more water changes and depend less on media like Purigen.
I had 10 large Heckels in a 75 gal tank and in that case the Purigen did help maintain higher water quality without much extra effort. It is interesting stuff but by no means absolutely necessary.

Regarding the BioFill surface area per cu ft vs small cut off of PVC pipe there is a great deal of difference between the two when it comes to surface area per cu ft. I estimate BioFill to provide about 100 times as much per cu ft. If you are comparing equivalent shavings from planing PVC pipe then that would be more equivalent. It would take a lot of PVC pipe to end up with a cu ft of shavings and I used about 1-3/4 cu ft of BioFill.
There are many design considerations to keep in mind when choosing wet/dry filter media but the choice boils down to how to get the most surface area available for bacterial colonization and retain the optimum amount of exposure to atmospheric oxygen.

[Apistomaster]

You only fill the reactors about 25% full of Purigen. There needs to be plenty of room for the media to tumble. They are very similar to the design of fluidized bed filters. In fact, if you used tight fitting poly felt pads about 1/2 ich thick, top and bottom, a fluidized bed filter could be modified to be used a larger capacity media reactor.
I have this model:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/207695/product.web Meant for tanks up to 150 gal.
But I just noticed when I looked up the catalog number/link that they now sell a much larger model for tanks up to 600 gal. Of course those sizes are based on using their phosphate removing resins not Purigen. It is impossible to use the Purigen properly unless you modify it to have fine poly felt to prevent the expelling of the media; the sponges that come with them are very coarse. Using it in a bag in a reactor would be no better than using it inside a power filter. The whole idea of using a reactor to to ensure the media has the maximum exposure to the water flowing through them. Do use the sponge filter material which comes with them but the felt material addition is necessary. Other makes and models are available; PhosBan reactors were merely one of the first to become available. They may be used for a number of different types of expensive, fine grain media with specific purposes. It is supposed to effectively remove many organic substance which are wastes which otherwise would become part of the nitr0gen cycle thus using some of the available dissolved O2. Note: There is a difference between dissolved O2 and redox potential but the two are interrelated in a very complex way.
I happen to like Purigen because it seems to be rechargeable for apparently forever. At least I never had to replace any in the 5 years I used it. I did buy extra to make keeping fresh supplies on hand at all times even if it it merely was just recharged as a matter of convenience.. I bought 4-1/2 liters.
Catalog #245828

Purigen can increase the redox potential of already clean water slightly while it is still working well and that has been associated with some unexpected spawning from some of my fancy plecos. I don't have any scientific evidence that Purigen was the variable that tipped the balance but it happened enough times in some experiments for me to keep it in my bag of tricks to try when all the usual tricks haven't worked.

[Apistomaster]

This newly introduced fluidized media reactor looks like it has some potential and it is cheaper than those which can be hung on the side of a tank I believe these are made for use within the sump which is where i always use my other reactor anyway.
But it comes with fine enough screens that I think Purigen and similarly small bead sized media would work well without the need to modify one by adding poly felt at top and bottom as is necessary for the other designs. Only $30 and it looks like it could hold more media.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/238833/product.web

[nc0gnet0]

Purigen can increase the redox potential of already clean water slightly while it is still working well and that has been associated with some unexpected spawning from some of my fancy plecos. I don't have any scientific evidence that Purigen was the variable that tipped the balance but it happened enough times in some experiments for me to keep it in my bag of tricks to try when all the usual tricks haven't worked.

Way cool, I am going to have to try this on my longfin albino's......Any other tips?

I am really curious about your poly felt pads, where do you get them and how much are they? Do you ever have any issues with clogging? I wish marineland would come up with a media container that would accomplish the same thing for the magnum 350's............I have been tempted cut up and glue a poly filter sock around the exterior.

[Condor]

Thanks Larry!

Adrian

[Apistomaster]

Unless you use the Purigen in a reactor where it is able to tumble freely in the upwelling flow then any alternative method like confining in a sock or media bag does not allow a full exposure of the media to the flow. Channels develop through and around the media for the water to bypass the media to a large extent. That is the whole idea to avoid by using a specially designed reactor.
Otherwise you might as well use it in media bags placed in a filter and accept that that method is less efficient.
The new Magnavore reactor uses such fine screens so no felt should be necessary.
I bought the polypropylene felt from www.aqauatic eco.com.
Catalog # PF11A http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1747/Washable-Filter-Material/PF11/0

[Apistomaster]

Way cool, I am going to have to try this on my longfin albino's......Any other tips?

Yes, Do not expect Purigen to help you breed albino Long Fin Bushy Noses.
Their breeding and rearing problems have everything to do with their combined genetic weaknesses, albinism and the Long Fin traits which makes them less vigorous than short fin normals or even short fin albinos.
To put it bluntly, albino long fin bushy nose are a feeble strain and their growth and survival rates are poor compared to the more normal varieties. That is why their prices have remained relatively high over the years while the prices for the normal finned varieties have dropped considerably over the years.
I would recommend that you feed earth worm sticks as the basis of their diet plus Spirulina sticks. Both www.kensfish.com and www.aquaticeco.com sells these foods which also happen to be well liked by most other fish including Discus.

[nc0gnet0]

I will have to try the earthworm sticks, currently I feed the HBH spirulina wafers, and the occasional slice of cucumber or summer squash.


To put it bluntly, albino long fin bushy nose are a feeble strain and their growth and survival rates are poor compared to the more normal varieties.

Aww yes, sounds like a challange ;) Have you ever breed them? My pair seems quite healthy and a good size for ABN's, but I have yet to have them breed. (bought them at a local aquarium club auction, sold as a mated pair). If you have any additional advice I would love to hear it, but I am afraid I might be guilty of a thread hijacking.....my apologies.

[nc0gnet0]

Unless you use the Purigen in a reactor where it is able to tumble freely in the upwelling flow then any alternative method like confining in a sock or media bag does not allow a full exposure of the media to the flow. Channels develop through and around the media for the water to bypass the media to a large extent.

So you don't think if you could devise away to use the media chamber in a magnum 350 and only fill it 1/3 the way with purigen it would yield any better results than using a media bag?

[Apistomaster]

Only a purpose built media reactor makes efficient use of any media including Purigen. Regardless of the filter type. Otherwise the Purigen must be confined in a fine mesh media bag and there will be a lot of bypass and/or water channelization. Very inefficient way to try to use Purigen.

Purigen will not help make breeding and rearing albino long fin bushy nose any easier. They are very weak and require extra care. More like Discus. Frequent large water changes, I recommend using as large a tank as possible. Bare minimum is a 20 long for a pair but that is not large enough to also allow the fry to remain in the breeding tank long before you know it there will be too many fry in too small a tank.
A 40 gal breeder is ideal. I recommend using an Eheim Classic 2217 with an Eheim pre-filter intake accessory. In addition I would use a HydroSponge IV or equivalent driven by a 140 to 160 gal power head plus a strongly bubbling air stone.

Furnish the tank with 1/4 inch of pool filter sand, plenty of wood and a couple of spawning caves. Tilt the spawning caves so the entrance is slightly elevated to reduce accidental expulsion of the eggs or larvae.
Use some free float tropical Hornwort or water sprite plants at the surface.
Use 80-82*F for water temperatures.
Diet should include earth worm sticks, Spirulina sticks(seems better than wafers) and some frozen blood worms. Also some can green beans and parboiled zuchinni are good supplemental foods.
Water quality must be kept high for all parts of breeding and raising these delicate or defective fish. I guess it is a matter of one's POV.
Yes, I have bred albino bushy noses. I have raised about 1000 of them but I began with many more. Only about 2/3 survive to a safe selling size. I presently have some young breeders from fry I kept back from past spawns. They are so defective genetically that I don't care to breed them much but they remain expensive enough for me to bother raising a few once in awhile for regional fish shops. I can't justify the expenses of raing any fish which wholesales for less than about $7.00
I mainly breed the rare, small, Brazilian species of Hypancistrus which are no longer legal to export from Brazil and Leopard Frog Peckoltia sp L134 because few others are able to breed them and their prices have only increased since Brazil began enforcing the ban of Hypancistrus exports that has made L134 more in demand than ever and the demand exceeds the supply.

[nc0gnet0]

I got them in a 75 gallon long, along with some dither fish (neons, von rio's). filtration is a rena xp4 with spray bar supplemented with a hot mag also with spray bar. It's more a bar bottom tank with slate tile and slate tile planters along the entire back and half way up the sides. Planters are filled with flourite. Incorporated into the planters are three caves, narrow at the mouth (only one opening) and wider in the back. Temperatures are kept at 80 degrees +/- a degree.

I was delaying a water change for two weeks then a large water change I heard this might encourage spawning. Have not tried green beans yet, though they do get zuchinni and summer(yellow) squash. Just a beginner here so I don't know all the differnt varietys of pleco's (what like 500 now and counting?). But you got to start somewhere. As much as I love discus, pleco's fascinate me, it all started with me rehoming a plain ol' common pleco that someone had brought into the LFS (he outgrew his tank). He's 14+ inches now and waiting for the weather to warm up here in Michigan so he can enjoy his summer in the comfort of a 5000 gallon pond. Currently he is tankmates with a mated pair of (ok for lack of better term) King Kong Blood parrots (another genetic misfit, I see a pattern here :) ) in a 200 gallon. Along with the longfins and common I have a vampire pleco and a sailfin and what I beleive is an L356......I almost came home with a medusa pleco but don't know where I would put him.

I appreciate the information, especially seeing how you don't like the breed much, but it was my understand ing that despite there genetic weakness, they do make nice tankmates for discus (not saying that other sp don't).

[Apistomaster]

Actually I do like keeping albino long fin bushy nose plecos as the algae eating fish in my Discus tanks. I just am frustrated by their genetic weaknesses. No problem with normal fin albinos but the long fin makes an impressive looking algae eater but they just require more attention to maintaining water qualtity and even then a large percentage seem to be unable to survive. This may be due to a possible lethal gene combination which some individuals inherit and no amount of care can overcome.
They are a frustrating breed to raise commercially and the short fins are so much more prolific and widely bred they sell for less than they really cost to raise. The albinos wholesale prices are not quite high enough to make raising them commercially viable when I have better alternatives so I only breed them enough to keep my line going mainly for my personal use.

It sounds like your albino long fins are being kept well but they do need a non-clogging yet effective filter intake prefilter to prevent losing new fry to the filter.
I would not expect any fry to survive in any community tank unless the other animals are Cherry Shrimp. I keep Cherry shrimp in all my plecos and Corydoras colony style breeding tanks. They contribute well towards keeping the tanks cleaner and are so productive they are a source of a enough revenue to at least help cover part of the fish food expenses.