switching from gravel to BB?

[Faydra]

I have finally convinced my husband to let me pull the gravel out of my 55 gallon tank which houses 6 juvenile discus and go BB! :D

I have heard however that 85% of the beneficial bacteria lives in your gravel, is this true? If that is the case, what is the reccomended way I go about doing this? Should I take it out in stages? :confused: I have a 305 Fluval canister filter with 4 out of 6 of the compartments full of bio spheres, but the last thing I want is to take out almost all my good bacteria and throw my tank into re-cycling!

Also, my tank is on a black stand which would mean that the bottom of the tank would be black and I have also read/heard that discus do not do well with a dark bottom. Is this true? If I put light colored cloth or paper under my tank would that help?

Thanks in advance!
Faydra

[Darrell Ward]

There's definely bacteria in the gravel, but most is in the filter. If your filters have been up and running for a while, you're good. I would tank the fish out, so I could remove all the water, and remove it all at once. The bottom of your tank is not going to matter a great deal, IMO. I've had bb tanks for years, and have found it to be a non factor. The background probably has greater affect than the bottom.

[David Rose]

+1 When removing the gravel, it will release a lot of good and bad into the main water column, so it's definitely important to do a large water change.

Best of luck with your project...change is good. :)

[Faydra]

There's definely bacteria in the gravel, but most is in the filter. If your filters have been up and running for a while, you're good. I would tank the fish out, so I could remove all the water, and remove it all at once. The bottom of your tank is not going to matter a great deal, IMO. I've had bb tanks for years, and have found it to be a non factor. The background probably has greater affect than the bottom.

My filter has been running for over 6 months so I feel there is a lot of bacteria in it.

I only have the one tank running right now but I have a 3 gallon bucket, would that be okay to put them in while I am taking the gravel out?

[Darrell Ward]

My filter has been running for over 6 months so I feel there is a lot of bacteria in it.

I only have the one tank running right now but I have a 3 gallon bucket, would that be okay to put them in while I am taking the gravel out?

I would go to a home improvement store and get a 5 gal. bucket, and you should be fine. The reason is you probably won't be filling the bucket all the way up, and you may only end up with 3 gals or so in a 5 gal. bucket.

[DerekFF]

depends on how much gravel you have, but an average of an inch of gravel is gonna house a lot more bacteria than you think. Im pretty sure your filter will still be sufficient, not sure about the bioballs you use...i think those are for wet/dry sumps more than canisters, but i think youll be ok. I also have a black stand and tried BB after having gravel and my fish were stressed for about 3 weeks before i put it back in and now they are HAPPY again. weird creatures they are. also +1 on taking the fish out when scooping the gravel, a lot of nasties are gonna be released when taking it out. This is all from personal experience and personal exp alone. Take it with a grain of salt as its not the only way it work! best luck!

[nc0gnet0]

I am going to have to disagree with the consensus here and say that the majority of your BB will be in your gravel, Particularly if you have an UGF. Thats not to say your filter can't eventually handle the load, but it might take time. I am not so sure your using the best bio-material available, its all about surface area. When you say bio-spheres, are you talking about those ceramic black star shaped things (which are good) or round plastic balls(not so much)?

IMHO, I think a single 305 on a 55 gallon is at the upper limits of what the filter can do, you would be much better off with a 405, or better yet another 305.

If it where me, I would take out 1/4 og the gravel at a time, in 4 day intervals. Do this just before you do a 50% (or greater) water change and you should be fine.

[Eddie]

Definitely remove the fish, clear out the gravel and rinse out the tank well. A member killed ALL but one fish by removing gravel with fish in tank.

Don't fret about the bio bed, you have plenty in the filter and just stay on top of water changes if there is any spike in ammonia/nitrites. ;)


HTH
Eddie

[erikc]

Definitely remove the fish, clear out the gravel and rinse out the tank well. A member killed ALL but one fish by removing gravel with fish in tank.

Don't fret about the bio bed, you have plenty in the filter and just stay on top of water changes if there is any spike in ammonia/nitrites. ;)


HTH
Eddie

That was a tough one, this point is often missed by people with gravel or sand in their tanks.

The gravel must be correctly cleaned with each water change, if not dead areas will apear within the bed. This is caracterised by a "rotten egg" smell, this will effectively kill your fish off. However you do need a deep bed before this can happen.

To be on the safe side, it would be better to remove your fish before the gravel.

[Faydra]

Thanks to all who responded!

I am going to buy a bigger bucket on Saturday and remove my discus while I pull my gravel. I am pretty religious about syphoning every square inch of the gravel everyday but better safe than sorry!

I am also going to take out the carbon and nitrate reducer from my filter and fill it completely with bio spheres (BTW these are hollow cylinders called "BIOMAX" made for Fluval filters). IMO if I test my water and do my water changes daily (which I am already doing) I should be okay.

Fingers crossed!! :D

[Harriett]

PLEASE REMEMBER to put an O2 bubbler in the bucket with the fish in it while you break down the tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As a novice, I once managed to kill a tank of juveniles not by leaving them in the tank while I did a tank break down, but by putting them in a bucket for several hours, over which I casually put a lid so they didn't jump out. The amount of surface area where gas is exchanged is the issue--a bucket NEEDS a bubbler or sponge filter running in it while they are in there.
I agree with the advice here to just move the fish out, break it down and clean all the substrate out, and re set it up. Your filter should have adequate bio in it to compensate for what is lost by losing the gravel--don't worry about that. It is in the long run much more stressful to the discus to go through 4 periods of gravel removal, with all the bacteria and the particulate crap stirred up by removing any gravel--you don't want them trying to breathe through that let alone pick up some infection from getting inundated with it all at once..

One other note, with all due respect: UGF use with discus is ASKING for trouble, big time. PLZ never use this method!

Best regards to all,
Harriett

[Faydra]

PLEASE REMEMBER to put an O2 bubbler in the bucket with the fish in it while you break down the tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As a novice, I once managed to kill a tank of juveniles not by leaving them in the tank while I did a tank break down, but by putting them in a bucket for several hours, over which I casually put a lid so they didn't jump out. The amount of surface area where gas is exchanged is the issue--a bucket NEEDS a bubbler or sponge filter running in it while they are in there.
I agree with the advice here to just move the fish out, break it down and clean all the substrate out, and re set it up. Your filter should have adequate bio in it to compensate for what is lost by losing the gravel--don't worry about that. It is in the long run much more stressful to the discus to go through 4 periods of gravel removal, with all the bacteria and the particulate crap stirred up by removing any gravel--you don't want them trying to breathe through that let alone pick up some infection from getting inundated with it all at once..

One other note, with all due respect: UGF use with discus is ASKING for trouble, big time. PLZ never use this method!

Best regards to all,
Harriett

Hi Harriet,

Sorry for my ignorance but what is an "O2 bubbler"? Is this just an air stone? I have an air pump with an air stone that runs the length of my tank. Can I hang this into the bucket? Why is this necessary? I have placed fish in buckets several times for hour long periods with no problems. These particular discus were shipped from over four hours away and spent probably twice the much time in their bags before being put into my tank.... :confused:

[Darrell Ward]

Yes, a bubbler is an airstone. It will give them a little extra air. Extra insurance never hurts.

[Harriett]

Hi Harriet,

Sorry for my ignorance but what is an "O2 bubbler"? Is this just an air stone? I have an air pump with an air stone that runs the length of my tank. Can I hang this into the bucket? Why is this necessary? I have placed fish in buckets several times for hour long periods with no problems. These particular discus were shipped from over four hours away and spent probably twice the much time in their bags before being put into my tank.... :confused:


As said, I mean an airstone, extra O2=oxygen.

One hour is probably not a problem but why chance it....why stress them beyond being in a bucket, you know? After killing those juvies, I just automatically do it. They do ok in bags because there is [the usual bagging formula] 1/4 water and 3/4 O2 and it is a confined situation so the O2 is not off gassed or dissipated. They should do fine in a bag for 24+ hours.
If you can empty gravel, clean the tank, refill and get it all set in an hour, you are a marvel, LOL! Maybe I am just slow, right?
Best regards,
Harriett

[Faydra]

Well it won't just be me - I have recruited my husband to help! :D

As my current air stone is enormous, I will probably buy a little one and set it up in the bucket for them.

Thanks!

[nc0gnet0]

Faydra,

Can I ask do you have an under gravel filter? Reason I ask is because most people that have gravel have an UGF.

[nc0gnet0]

This is caracterised by a "rotten egg" smell, this will effectively kill your fish off.

Yup, hydrogen sulfide. Created by aeromonas or pseudomonas bacteria deep in the gravel. Huge issue in koi ponds when unknowing owners put gravel in the bottom and then stir it up. Just a FYI, can be neutralized with PP (and no I am not suggesting to use this method).


My filter has been running for over 6 months so I feel there is a lot of bacteria in it.

Well, your filter is definatly seeded for sure, no doubt there. But here is how it works. You will only have established the amount of bacteria in your tank that can be supported(fed) by your bio-load (fish, fish poop, decaying organics). This bacteria will be spread over both your gravel and your filter. I am guessing that the total surface area of your gravel is roughly 2/3 of your total bio-supporting substance. If you have an UGF this number could be higher. So, your going to lose the majority of your bio-bacteria in my opinion. Now, you should be ok, but most likely you will see a spike in ammonia and nitrites so what your levels for the first several days after doing this.

Now, I don't know how fast you and your husand can accomplish this task, but any longer than a couple of hours and your bio-bacteria will start to die off. If you think it is going to be significantly longer than this, I recomend removing the trays from the canister, placing then in a five gallon bucket with water and a small airstone.

[Eddie]

Definitely remove the fish, clear out the gravel and rinse out the tank well. A member killed ALL but one fish by removing gravel with fish in tank.

Don't fret about the bio bed, you have plenty in the filter and just stay on top of water changes if there is any spike in ammonia/nitrites. ;)


HTH
Eddie


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