CENTRAL AIR PUMP

[dean9922]

I am currently redoing my fish room and just wondering what would work good on about 14-16 foam filters IV's(size 4's). I want to run the air thru pvc and have drop lines to each filter. Would 1/2 inch pvc work ok for this, or should I use 3/4 inch.
Also any recommendations for a quieter and efficient air pump on this type of system. I don't want one that sounds like a tractor when it's running...lol
thanks

[John_Nicholson]

Call John at Jehmco and tell him John from NADA sent you to him. He will fix you up and you will not be able to hear the pump run at all.

-john

[dean9922]

thanks John...appreciate it....

[alpine]

here you go ,

http://www.jehmco.com/html/lph26.html

Roberto.

[acroken]

i agree that the LPH26 will be perfect for you. They are super quite and efficient. The 3/4" pvc would be easier to drill you air valves into as 1/2" is pretty small. Be sure to connect the pvc in a closed loop with no dead ends.

Kenny

[LizStreithorst]

i agree that the LPH26 will be perfect for you. They are super quite and efficient. The 3/4" pvc would be easier to drill you air valves into as 1/2" is pretty small. Be sure to connect the pvc in a closed loop with no dead ends.

Kenny

Why the closed loop with no dead ends? I've always capped off the ends:confused:

[acroken]

Liz,a loop will deliver equal pressure and is easier on the pump. I used to cap the ends when I ran blowers but I found a loop is far better. I did some research into way my pumps failed and found a closed loop does not cause as much back pressure. I hope this make sense. I am driving right now. I will post a drawing tomorrow of how mine is set up.
Kenny

[LizStreithorst]

That's good to know. Thanks for the info, Kenny.

[Chad Hughes]

When you contact Jehmco, they are going to tell you that you need to "vent" your system. Whether you choose to run a loop or have "dead ends" neither system should have backpressure due to venting. If your pump provides more air than needed, you need to provide outlets to vent off backpressure. A floating piston compressor will fail prematurely with backpressure...

Just food for thought!

Best wishes!

[dean9922]

THanks Chad, Liz and Acroken....look forward to the photo or diagram of your system.......and thanks for all the info....
Not sure what you mean by a loop.....does that mean splitting the air output of the pump into 2 outputs and physically creating a loop???? As opposed to one output into a 3/4 inch piping????

[LizStreithorst]

When you contact Jehmco, they are going to tell you that you need to "vent" your system. Whether you choose to run a loop or have "dead ends" neither system should have backpressure due to venting. If your pump provides more air than needed, you need to provide outlets to vent off backpressure. A floating piston compressor will fail prematurely with backpressure...

Just food for thought!

Best wishes!

That I knew. Too much back pressure is a bad thing. I should have been able to figure out the closed loop thing, too. I know that when plumbing water a closed loop provides even pressure to all the outlets. Common sence tells me that it would be the same with air.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that with a closed loop, and an air release valve, the system should provide even output to all the air devices thus eliminating the need for seperate controll valves on each device.

[Moon]

I used 1.5" PVC to feed my 20 tanks. The larger diameter pipe will act as a reservoir for the air and reduce back pressure on the pump.

[LizStreithorst]

I used 1" but I agree that the larger the better.

[Chad Hughes]

That I knew. Too much back pressure is a bad thing. I should have been able to figure out the closed loop thing, too. I know that when plumbing water a closed loop provides even pressure to all the outlets. Common sence tells me that it would be the same with air.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that with a closed loop, and an air release valve, the system should provide even output to all the air devices thus eliminating the need for seperate controll valves on each device.

Liz,

I would think your theory would work if all of your tanks were the same depth. Mixing depths, especially if you are operating the pump to it's limit, would create a situation were your deep tanks would not get enough or any air.

I have an LPH 80 that I run 3/4" PVC to 35 sponges. When I contacted Jehmco about the setup and they recommended 3/4" PVC and venting to reduce backpressure. Basically all you need for venting are enough valves to open up until you see a decline in bubbles in your tanks. My vents are just extra valves that I put in to the PVC for expansion if necessary. If I open them all up, I see a slight decrease in ouput in the tanks. That tells me that I am right where I want to be with minimal backpressure.

Hope that helps!

[LizStreithorst]

Depth. I forgot about depth:block: But if you were to run 15 devices on a pump that idealy could handle 20 I think it would work.

I'm surprised that Jhemco recommended 3/4" PVC rather than a larger diameter. I can't figure that one out.

Back when I had a real fish houre I used to vent my excess air the way you do. These days I'm stuck with using cheap two outlet pumps. One day...


Liz,

I would think your theory would work if all of your tanks were the same depth. Mixing depths, especially if you are operating the pump to it's limit, would create a situation were your deep tanks would not get enough or any air.

I have an LPH 80 that I run 3/4" PVC to 35 sponges. When I contacted Jehmco about the setup and they recommended 3/4" PVC and venting to reduce backpressure. Basically all you need for venting are enough valves to open up until you see a decline in bubbles in your tanks. My vents are just extra valves that I put in to the PVC for expansion if necessary. If I open them all up, I see a slight decrease in ouput in the tanks. That tells me that I am right where I want to be with minimal backpressure.

Hope that helps!

[AirCapital]

Depth. I forgot about depth:block: But if you were to run 15 devices on a pump that idealy could handle 20 I think it would work.

I'm surprised that Jhemco recommended 3/4" PVC rather than a larger diameter. I can't figure that one out.

Back when I had a real fish houre I used to vent my excess air the way you do. These days I'm stuck with using cheap two outlet pumps. One day...

here is my air system. it is ap 100, ran with 3/4inch pvc no glue,ran in a loop w/ balve valve blow off, 100 outlets running 85 sponge filters and there is plenty left in the pump for more outlets I would say I am at 50% of what the pump could handle. I didnt think 3/4inch pvc would cut it and give me good even pressure but I was suprised at how well the small pipe worked.
this pic was before I had it running that is why there are no hose connectors on the hose.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w260/hellbent72/034-3.jpg

[LizStreithorst]

I still want to know why a larger diameter pipe is not beter that a smaller.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I still want to know why a larger diameter pipe is not beter that a smaller.

In this case, the LPH26, only flows around 1 CFM @ 1.5psi (42" of H2O). 1 CFM doesnt need a very large pipe to provide minimal flow resistance. 1/2" pipe would indeed work, but 3/4" is larger diameter and is easier to tap/drill into. If the flow rate was larger, say 25CFM (blower), then a larger PVC piping system would be required (1.5"minimum).

A loop will equalize pressure to an extent, but just having the system properly designed/sized/installed will go a long way towards that.

Linear piston pumps (and diaphram pumps as well) cannot tolerate any back pressure on them. Each cycle/rotation pushes a given volume of air, with any excess no where to go. If a pump operates like this for an extended period of time, excessive wear/tear will occur and a rebuild kit will be required much sooner than anticipated. A blower on the other hand can tolerate some back pressure due to it's design....

I tell people everyday (literally) when installing a linear piston/diaphram air pump is to plumb your system as normal using whatever size pipe is appropriate for your flow. But at the very beginning of the system coming off the air source, install a globe valve (size depends on air flow in use, typically 1/2"). Turn system on with all the air outlets full open (normal operating flow). This includes the globe valve. Start turning the globe valve closed until you start to see air flowing at a near even rate in all the tanks. Once you find that sweet spot, give it another 1/2 turn or so (to compensate for dirty diffusers as they age down the line). Single point air-bleed off makes life easier.

-Ryan

[luckyfind]

I think the larger pipe would make no difference on air pressure. It would hold mor air but the pressure should be the same. I use extra valves to bleed of the air also. I put in about ten more valves than I figured I would need and use them to bleed off. Also I have seen where your air line runs around the whole room and then divided in half with another line. Can not remember the logic behind that one. Would not depth of tank be regulated by your valves?
Laurence

[dean9922]

thanks everyone and thanks for the pictures AirCapital....appreciate that...does anyone else have any????
It's interesting to hear the different opinions on this matter.

[LizStreithorst]

In this case, the LPH26, only flows around 1 CFM @ 1.5psi (42" of H2O). 1 CFM doesnt need a very large pipe to provide minimal flow resistance. 1/2" pipe would indeed work, but 3/4" is larger diameter and is easier to tap/drill into. If the flow rate was larger, say 25CFM (blower), then a larger PVC piping system would be required (1.5"minimum).

A loop will equalize pressure to an extent, but just having the system properly designed/sized/installed will go a long way towards that.

Linear piston pumps (and diaphram pumps as well) cannot tolerate any back pressure on them. Each cycle/rotation pushes a given volume of air, with any excess no where to go. If a pump operates like this for an extended period of time, excessive wear/tear will occur and a rebuild kit will be required much sooner than anticipated. A blower on the other hand can tolerate some back pressure due to it's design....

I tell people everyday (literally) when installing a linear piston/diaphram air pump is to plumb your system as normal using whatever size pipe is appropriate for your flow. But at the very beginning of the system coming off the air source, install a globe valve (size depends on air flow in use, typically 1/2"). Turn system on with all the air outlets full open (normal operating flow). This includes the globe valve. Start turning the globe valve closed until you start to see air flowing at a near even rate in all the tanks. Once you find that sweet spot, give it another 1/2 turn or so (to compensate for dirty diffusers as they age down the line). Single point air-bleed off makes life easier.

-Ryan

That was some good stuff, Ryan. If I ever set up the fish house that is still a twinkle in my eye, you can count on me picking your brain dry:)

[dean9922]

Agreed Liz...very good info from Ryan....

[alpine]

LPH26 pump, end cap , running 18 hydros , 3/4 45 ' piping , five years of service . Cool and running Great !

Roberto.

[dean9922]

THanks Alpine good to hear that pump works well....

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

That was some good stuff, Ryan. If I ever set up the fish house that is still a twinkle in my eye, you can count on me picking your brain dry:)

I have people picking my brain all day long about this stuff.....I enjoy it. Please do not hesitate to shoot me a message if you ever have any questions about equipment. I am always happy to help where I can.

-Ryan

[korbi_doc]

LPH26 pump from John @ Jehmco, been running for over 8 yrs....& unlike the advice given here (couldn't manage that loop in this huge room) it's been run on 3 walls & has an end cap/stop....so far never any problem from that, just didn't know how to do a loop in this situation....

Dottie



LPH26 pump, end cap , running 18 hydros , 3/4 45 ' piping , five years of service . Cool and running Great !

Roberto.

[dean9922]

Thanks Dottie!!!!

[acroken]

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss50/acroken/fish%20room/9KENFISHPLN4air.jpg http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss50/acroken/fish%20room/KENFISH.jpg
Here is my layout. figure 8 loop. I can adjust the air pressure in each corner. i blow off any residual air into my water storage tanks. hope this helps.

Kenny

[dean9922]

Thanks Acroken
that's an awesome idea to vent the unused air to the storage water....I like that!!!! Also, a very impressive set-up!!!!!

[alpine]

:)

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Very nice Kenny....what size air pump do you plan to use?

-Ryan

[Jhhnn]

My own experiences with my central air pump and with other pipe/pressure/flow applications tells me that once the distribution pipe is big enough, bigger doesn't make it better.

OTOH, for people who can use rigid pvc and have lots of outlets, the price delta between 3/4" and 1" is small enough that there's little reason to not use the larger size.

I'll agree with what's been said about the necessity of bleeding off excess air and the benefit of a loop distribution system when it's reasonable to do things that way...

[dean9922]

you are absolutely right about the price difference between 3/4 and 1" being very minimal.......will certainly put the bigger pipe in, as you can always bleed out the excess air if necessarly no matter what size pump you use....

[acroken]

Very nice Kenny....what size air pump do you plan to use?

-Ryan
Thanks Ryan, i have an LP80 for the main pump and if needed an LP60. I tried to run two branches of the air pipe in case i need more air or a pump goes down. I will be able to divert the air with ball valves to both sections of the loops.

I am running 1" piping. i found it is a lot easier to drill the air fittings into 1" pipe vs.3/4" since the diameter is larger. i do not think there is much difference in air pressure between them. You would know way better them me though:)

Hope all is going well at AquaticEco systems. I placed an order there on Monday.

Kenny

[jeff@zina.com]

will certainly put the bigger pipe in, as you can always bleed out the excess air if necessarly no matter what size pump you use....

The quantity of air in a pipe has no effect on the system, it's the extra pressure that needs to bleed off. Larger pipe and larger radius bends will improve airflow, up to a point, but, in general, the reason to use larger pipe is it's easier to drill and tap for a valve.

Jeff

[markstr]

Just getting into this myself here and a few questions here..
Closed loop or End Caps, what difference does it make as long as you have
one of the small Valves here slightly open in order NOT to have any back pressure since It's basically bleeding off here..:confused:
3/4 or 1 inch PVC size wise yes, little easier maybe to drill the taps but....
I have a new Diaphram pump that I am going to be setting up here and I know I have too much pump here for the amount of Tanks/ Filters ( Sponges btw) but I just thought if I just install a few more Valves here and slightly open up one of them to release pressure, I'm good to go either way. ??

[acroken]

Just getting into this myself here and a few questions here..
Closed loop or End Caps, what difference does it make as long as you have
one of the small Valves here slightly open in order NOT to have any back pressure since It's basically bleeding off here..:confused:
3/4 or 1 inch PVC size wise yes, little easier maybe to drill the taps but....
I have a new Diaphram pump that I am going to be setting up here and I know I have too much pump here for the amount of Tanks/ Filters ( Sponges btw) but I just thought if I just install a few more Valves here and slightly open up one of them to release pressure, I'm good to go either way. ??

i run closed loops for a few reasons. first is air balance, by having the piping so there are no dead ends, you deliver equal pressure to all valves. It is easier on the pump. in a closed loop you can add additional pumps if needed without having to redo your whole piping system. the manufacture recommend the closed loop design.you can adjust your system to bleed off and limit back pressure without having to tune and adjust every valve. IMO this type of system is for a fish room with 20 + tanks where you are using a large volume of air.

Kenny

[AirCapital]

Thanks Acroken
that's an awesome idea to vent the unused air to the storage water....I like that!!!! Also, a very impressive set-up!!!!!

the only draw back to venting the extra air to water storage containers is when the water level goes up and down, when the water level is high in the container it has back pressure and all the other open valves in the sysytem are not affected but when the water level drops down to the bottom you may see a pressure drop in the whole system causeing some of the deeper tanks to stop getting enough air or non at all

[acroken]

the only draw back to venting the extra air to water storage containers is when the water level goes up and down, when the water level is high in the container it has back pressure and all the other open valves in the sysytem are not affected but when the water level drops down to the bottom you may see a pressure drop in the whole system causeing some of the deeper tanks to stop getting enough air or non at all
i have never had any problems with this set up. i could see that as a problem if you only had one bleeder and one storage container. As stated this is a set up for multiple 20+ tanks. The question was about loop or dead ends and the manufacture calls for loops. Any air/water/filter system on multiple systems is going to require some creative design and tweaking.

Kenny

[AirCapital]

i have never had any problems with this set up. i could see that as a problem if you only had one bleeder and one storage container. As stated this is a set up for multiple 20+ tanks. The question was about loop or dead ends and the manufacture calls for loops. Any air/water/filter system on multiple systems is going to require some creative design and tweaking.

Kenny

ok:D I wasnt trying to say you where wrong or it didnt work , just a point of veiw thats all. unless the water storage container is the same depth as your tank I would think there will be a pressure difference, if the air line leading to the water container has a air stone or a drip valve on it to create back pressure when the container is empty it may not make a big difference.
I have a airline going into my water container also and when it is empty I notice a slight drop on overall air pressure through out the system even more so on the deeper tanks. I also have a bleed off valve also that is crack open quit abit to reduce wear and heat on my pump, if i closed the ball valve more and added pressure I may not have the pressure drop when empty but then my pump would last as long.

[markstr]

Here's some Pictures here and would like to get an Idea from others on this set up. Jehmco ph 30 on the Pump .. 20 or so Sponge filters..
Was going to run the 1 inch PVC Straight up to the ceiling here and then
How to Branch off Correctly is my main concern here. Not sure how I would incorporate a "Closed Loop in this case .
A large Tank on the Right and then I have my others here on the left side.
2 Different Valves here ( Which one would be recommended to blow off excess air here and where to put it ??

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

the only draw back to venting the extra air to water storage containers is when the water level goes up and down, when the water level is high in the container it has back pressure and all the other open valves in the sysytem are not affected but when the water level drops down to the bottom you may see a pressure drop in the whole system causeing some of the deeper tanks to stop getting enough air or non at all

Correct. Ideal situation is to run the storage tank on it's on air system. Deeper water requires more pressure to push air...this backpressure would push more air towards the other air lines, while reducing volume to the deeper storage tank.

-Ryan