Eye Size guide elaboration please y'all:D

[henward]

Hi all,

ok, i am falling in love with discus! hence why i am here.
but i am abit demoralised that i purchased high grade discus but some are stunted.

but in saying that, if they are large in size, i dont mind so much, its the medium size discus i purchased that are stunted that i am angry about lol

but to avoid this in the future, i would probably more go towards purchasing a monster as opposed to a smaller discus so i know its already big.

but need info anyways, as good strains are expensive when large.

the eye size, when does that apply from? what size of fish can that be used with?

or is it irrelevant?
can you use that for any size from a baby to adult?

also, when the eye size is count 4 to 4.5 eye count, does that mean your fish is stunted?
if its 7 to 7.5 eye count, does that mean its not stunted OR has a lesser change of being stunted?

basically if i go to a breeder and look at a fish, and the eye count is 7 and above. is that safe to buy knowing it will get full sized?
OR do some discus hatch and are bred stunted from birth?
i mean.... not all fish will be its full potential right? natural selection.
so yeah, just some feedback would be awesome.

the reason is that i can buy 4 times more babies around 3 to 5 cms fish for the same money as one large one with nice colours.
if i can buy more for less...thats better.
but is there always a risk of a fish just being stunted from birth?

[Eddie]

Proper eye size to body ratio is more evident at subadult/adult size. Now, there are some extremes where young fish, smaller then 3 inches, may have the 7-7.5 eye/body measurement. Also, the wild varieties generally have a larger eye compared to domestic raised/bred discus.

Knowing the exact age of a fish is very important when it comes to buying young fish. If you want to raise young fish to adults, its important to know the conditions that must be met, like; proper foods, feeding regimen, water conditions, water change regimen.


Depending on the age of the fish, > 4-5 months, yes...4-4.5 is stunted IMO.

Buying adult fish takes the probability out of stunting your fish, they are grown to adults by somone else and the hard work and effort is already done. Growing young fish to adult size, is one of the most rewarding experiences in the world.


Eddie

[henward]

yes
i agree
i am an arowana collector and getting into discus also.

the fish i have some are 5 to 6 months and may be stunted.
i have one posted, a show white, people say its stunted, but its actually big.

firs tof all, my measuring estimation skills are terrible lol
so i used a measuring tape.
but here is the question.

when you measure discus, the general rule here for all experienced discus addicts...
do you measure from the tip of the tail to the tip of the mouth?
or do you measure from the mouth to the part where the tail becomes part of the body? i dont knw the word for it

my measurements on all my posts are wrong IF you measure the total length from lips to tip of tail.

my biggest ones are 13 to 15 cms
the smaller ones are all an extra 2 to 3 cms lol.

i have a snow white, here is the pic
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q163/henwardphotos/Discus/IMG_4180.jpg
this fella is quite big!
15 cms from tip of the tail to the tip of the lips. end to end

this albino is also 15 cms end to end
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q163/henwardphotos/Discus/IMG_4181.jpg

so wondering, when everyone here measures, is it end to end?

[henward]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pets-animals/Fish/Fish/auction-289411888.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pets-animals/Fish/Fish/auction-289410615.htm

what do you think of these fish?

[henward]

how bout this one?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pets-animals/Fish/Fish/auction-289281540.htm

[Eddie]

Not sure that you are understanding. The actual size/length of the fish has zero to do with the eye measurement. Please read the thread from the University section.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=49201

[henward]

HI Eddie
sorry am i missing something here?
i have read the entire thread.
i cannot post there to ask
but the last post is by 'tony s'
below is what he wrong:

"Eye size is one of the main factors in assessing the previous care and future growth potential of a discus. It really has nothing to 'directly' do with the fish's health per-say....A sick discus can have large eyes, but so to can a healthy discus.

Basically its part aesthetic...part 'crystal ball'.

Tony ?

well, this is what i am iimplying.
that it is a tool used to see the potential growth of a discus fish.

so if the eye is big and is a low count, does this mean this fish will not grow as much as it would?
OR just a indication?
cos like i said, i have a couple at 15 cms tip to tip - their eyes are big 4 to 5 count, but they are big fish.

or do you measure a different way the "length of discus"?
when i measure arowana length, i measure from the barbels to the tip of the tail.
with discus is there a different way of measuring?

eddie, sorry to be a pain, i am not a discus expert YET.
probably will never be considering the experience accumulated in this site is extreme and impressive.....
if i am missing something please let me know

[Eddie]

You can read it how you want read it. I've explained it and have given reference. If you feel your fish are not stunted, thats a personal opinion. You actually asked for others opinions and that is what you received. Regardless of the size of the fish, the eyes are still too big at this point.

Eddie

[henward]

Eddie:
if you read your post, you actually did not explain anything.
i read that article - and it says that it is a way of telling the potential size of fish.
i want clarification on that as you disagreed with that article.

are you agreeing with the article?
which states that the eyes size compared to the body and head is a good way of telling if a fish is stunted and the potential size in the future

OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

that is my question.
Eddie. i am new to this discus thing.
frankly, i have had many experiences with forums before. MFK, my own country as well, reptile forums, as i am an avid animal collector. from reptiles and lizards, geckos to monster fish.
My specialty is monster fish dude and discus is a new territory for me.

you seem to be acting with abit of pomp and i dont know why?
almost hostile!!
what is the problem?

[henward]

This is what you wrote:
"Not sure that you are understanding. The actual size/length of the fish has zero to do with the eye measurement. Please read the thread from the University section.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=49201 "

This was in the article you kindly refered me to which i read multiple times to ensure i did not misread it.

""Eye size is one of the main factors in assessing the previous care and future growth potential of a discus. It really has nothing to 'directly' do with the fish's health per-say....A sick discus can have large eyes, but so to can a healthy discus.

Basically its part aesthetic...part 'crystal ball'."

my post was not arguing at all.
i am not defending my discus eddie.
i am asking a question.

[henward]

EDDIE:
If you look at post #7.
you actually never answered ANY of my questions.

Read back and tell me.
you spat off about some points, which i appreciate.
but you really didnt answer anything.
then you threw a tantrum telling me to accept it or not.

well...... im not an expert. i will acceptit - but the problem is eddie, you gave me nothing to accept dude!

you didnt even answer me on measuring.
do you measure tip to tip or base of the tail to tip of mouth?
You didnt even answer me that.

then you throw a tantrum

you seem to be somewhat snobby.
i have never entered a forum, and been treated like this.
especially with someone wtih so many post history.
everyone is usually so welcoming.

[Eddie]

Eddie:
if you read your post, you actually did not explain anything.
i read that article - and it says that it is a way of telling the potential size of fish.
i want clarification on that as you disagreed with that article.

are you agreeing with the article?
which states that the eyes size compared to the body and head is a good way of telling if a fish is stunted and the potential size in the future

OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

that is my question.
Eddie. i am new to this discus thing.
frankly, i have had many experiences with forums before. MFK, my own country as well, reptile forums, as i am an avid animal collector. from reptiles and lizards, geckos to monster fish.
My specialty is monster fish dude and discus is a new territory for me.

you seem to be acting with abit of pomp and i dont know why?
almost hostile!!
what is the problem?


Hostile....how do read hostile in a forum post? If you ask people for opinions and get them, thats pretty normal. Then you ask for clarification, get it and that is normal. If you still are not sure, there is no other way to explain it. The reference I gave is spot on, read Paul's post....thats it.

Hostile.....I dont see hostile at all. You read it how you want to read it.

Eddie

[henward]

"You can read it how you want read it. I've explained it and have given reference. If you feel your fish are not stunted, thats a personal opinion. You actually asked for others opinions and that is what you received. Regardless of the size of the fish, the eyes are still too big at this point.

Eddie "

comeon,
look at the above.
you are telling me that i dont accept peoples opinions.
well...where in my post did i not accept opinions.
in fact my posts are asking clarifications, justifications.

first of all
1) how do you measure? tip to tip or base of tail to tip? i mean exclusing tail to tip. You never answered that.
2) i asked if 15 cms tip to tip is stunted. Is that stunted?
3) one says that its a partial "crystal ball" that if the eye is large and body is small...hence eye count is low, then this can be a partial telling that the fish wont get too big in the future. IS THIS TRUE? you said otherwise, he says another.....so....what is the case here? or is this a matter of opinion?

the above are the main questions i asked.
You at any point NEVER answered them. Then you post what you did saying that i can accept or not.
well.......what is there to accept.......?

optional questions if you can handle them:
when i am told that my two white discus look weird ...stunted.
when you say stunted. does this mean it wont get big, or can stunted mean it can get big BUT does not have the show quality traits such as roundness, etc...similar to that of a dog show.

thats what im asking.
fine you were not hostile.... your post was abrupt, and almost condescending.

i dont understand what you are on about saying i dont accept others opinions when you gave nothing.

[Eddie]

1) how do you measure? tip to tip or base of tail to tip? i mean exclusing tail to tip. You never answered that.

Depends, most people measure discus from the tip of the mouth to the tip of the tail. This is called Total Length or TL.


2) i asked if 15 cms tip to tip is stunted. Is that stunted?

Size is not the gauge for a stunted discus, this is why I referenced Paul's post.


3) one says that its a partial "crystal ball" that if the eye is large and body is small...hence eye count is low, then this can be a partial telling that the fish wont get too big in the future. IS THIS TRUE? you said otherwise, he says another.....so....what is the case here? or is this a matter of opinion?

To me its a sign the fish is stunted or the fish is deformed by having a larger eye than what is considered natural or apealing.

There is nothing hostile about my posts, they may seem short but thats generally my way of posting. Sorry if thats how it comes across.

Eddie

[henward]

Eddie.
thanks for the answers.

ok that really does give me more insight lol

so TL - what is a good TL in cms? google says 15 to 18.
.....how bout the experts here?
a good specimens TL?
i guess im not after for a show quality discus, thats not really available in my country lol i dont think.

so stunted does not mean size. stunted can also be appearance and stuff generally.

pauls post on eyes ratio does not specify the meaning of "stunted"
or shall i say the different meanings of it

[vera]

i guess im not after for a show quality discus, thats not really available in my country lol i dont think.



If its possible for fish to be shipped from Australia to NZ your best bet would be Rod(sponsor on SD)
, he 's got great quality Discus , that u can buy with yr eyes closed , just check his latest shipment
TC

[Eddie]

Eddie.
thanks for the answers.

ok that really does give me more insight lol

so TL - what is a good TL in cms? google says 15 to 18.
.....how bout the experts here?
a good specimens TL?
i guess im not after for a show quality discus, thats not really available in my country lol i dont think.

so stunted does not mean size. stunted can also be appearance and stuff generally.

pauls post on eyes ratio does not specify the meaning of "stunted"
or shall i say the different meanings of it

Anytime!

15-18 is pretty good size IMO, there are those extra large discus though. Experts, I wouldn't have a clue but I've seen some pictures of BIG dogs on here, around 23+. Good specimens would need to have a standard. There are some very nice fish at 15cm, if they are proportional.

I think there are some nice specimens available there in NZ, seen some nice fish on here before. The topic of show quality discus always comes up, its not just about show quality. For example, check the Simply Sponsor section and see what quality fish are being sold. Not all those fish are considered "show" quality but they are undoubtedly the best quality.

Stunted is a term used for a fish that has not grown properly or to its best ability due to conditions such as poor/inadequate environment, poor diet or sickness. The fish may have had the potential to grow out nicely but was set back. So, if a fish was gonna grow LARGE but didnt get the care it required, the body slowed down in growth and the eye kept growing. This is why I used the eye size that Paul explains, its a good measure of figuring out proper development. Again, the age of the fish is important when checking eye ratio. Many people don't actually know the exact age of thier fish. Going off of size is not accurate when determining age.


Eddie

[henward]

to ship from aus, its same from asia or anywhere.
quarantine is a real big pain with the govt here.
nz's economy is predominantly agri and fisheries etc. they are extremely hard on imports.
cost of importing would be extreme at hundreds of specimens, let alone a few.

BUT there is a guy here that recently imprted new strains into NZ.
he is selling a few on our equivalent EBAY
www.trademe.co.nz
just search discus.

there is a few there, and once in a while a gem pops up.

he breeds himself and have had good feedback from previous customers in the local forums.

i will keep in mind though the tips you gave me.

but problem is his specimens are small.

example link below.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=2609446&mcat=0004-

he sells alot of albino strains
white strains whcih is what i love most.

[mmorris]

Assuming I am looking at the right ad, there is no guarantee that the fish will arrive alive. I would expect at the minimum that if the fish die in shipment, I will receive compensation.

[henward]

the ad is only 15 mins drive from wher ei live.
local dealer

[April]

the fact the fish is longer..than tall..is a good indication it was not fed and cared for well . some genetics..some care and growth. stunted fish tend to get a big eye..and long pointy nose..and longer in body than height. round..they should have a nice round shape. not longer. so its more the height and shape of the forehead. one way i notice..is the eye is very close to the edge if you look sideview . or..they get a baby doll face..big eye..little pointy nose.
the reason tony said its like a crystal ball..indication..is that means they had issues when their window of growth opportunity was there.. hence..if they were in a big growth spurt..and they had bad water..or improper care..or had disease..or stopped eating..they lost growth time..the eye grew..the body slowed down. it may start again..unless seriously stunted like that little spotted guy of yours.
but it means..the fish had bad care for some time in its young life. stress can cause more problems later on..as parasites etc grow in numbers in stressed or sick fish. best way..is to be sure it comes right to the front and demands food and eats it and swallows it. if you can go hand pick..then ask him to feed them. dont go for the little pointy ones..look for nice shape..nice high forhead and space between the eye and the top of the head and below. and look for one the forehead or nose doesnt have a dent. look for a gradual slope with no indent where the top fin meets.
read my article on my website. might help. http://www.aprilsaquarium.com/discus.php
make sure their stomachs are full and not concave..

[Wahter]

I have some photos of eye size ratio and body shape on my beginner's guide on my website:

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/discus/beginner/index.html

Not sure why you couldn't see the photos on the "what not to buy" thread, but most of them are also on that link above.

Hope that helps,


Walter

[henward]

there are some for sale by a breeder here in my country.
they are 50mm in size and are 5 months old.
is this a ok size for this age?

or are these fish already grown too slow?

[Eddie]

there are some for sale by a breeder here in my country.
they are 50mm in size and are 5 months old.
is this a ok size for this age?

or are these fish already grown too slow?


You'll have to gauge it by looking at them. I can tell you the fish are 2 months old but you can only tell by their shape/proportionality.

[Bilbo_wh]

Its interesting to follow this on here and on our NZ forums regarding eye size.

IMO the best place to start is
Do you like the look of this fish? Dose it appeal to you?
Secondly is the fish healthy?
Thirdly I would look at the shape and the body height and then I look at the eye size.
For us here in NZ we may have half a dozen breeders of discus total that are able to do a good job and I know from experience that most of the fish that come up for sale are not high quality fish.
But those that try to breed for supply and succeed at it shouldn't be criticized because it a tough job with market as small as ours. If we want to make a difference then we should do it by supporting those who supply good quality products.


You only need to be on here for a short time to see that almost every day someone on here is singing the praises of a supplier named Kenny.

BTW Eddie always gives good advice on here and a quick look at his post count will show that he gives alot of it :)

*Note to self, practise what I preach*

[henward]

when i make the visit to my local breeder, then i will take into account all the advice given here.
eye size compared to body height and length ratio.
the way the fin tapers away from the body also and general body shape.

i think one good one is the colours of the fish.
high strong they are from a young age.
if its extremely brightly coloured, then i guess its older.

would say, in a tank full of babies, say 5cms.
all from same parents and birth time.
is it fair to choose (providing its good shape and eye size etc, ) the biggest one of the litter so to speak?

obviously that one grew fastest and eats most.

[April]

yes ..the biggest strongest ones..but get a couple nice shaped ones a bit smaller..as alot of times all the biggest nicest shaped and strongest ones could be all males. a nice deep body is a good indication of health. not long and pointy nose.
that page of walters is the best advice and description with pics given.
another thing to watch for are dark eyes. dark black eyes mean sick or not happy. should show yellow or red eyes. clear and bright

[henward]

hi
i dont know whcih one is walter.
is the name actually walter or another?

can you just point me to the right direction?
i might have read it already, but no harm in reading more:D

[erikc]

I have some photos of eye size ratio and body shape on my beginner's guide on my website:

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/discus/beginner/index.html

Not sure why you couldn't see the photos on the "what not to buy" thread, but most of them are also on that link above.

Hope that helps,


Walter

It is realy well explained on you site Walter, you've done a good job there !

[Eddie]

when i make the visit to my local breeder, then i will take into account all the advice given here.
eye size compared to body height and length ratio.
the way the fin tapers away from the body also and general body shape.

i think one good one is the colours of the fish.
high strong they are from a young age.
if its extremely brightly coloured, then i guess its older.

would say, in a tank full of babies, say 5cms.
all from same parents and birth time.
is it fair to choose (providing its good shape and eye size etc, ) the biggest one of the litter so to speak?

obviously that one grew fastest and eats most.

Also, unless you are buying adults, younger discus do not display their full coloring. ;)

[henward]

thats where i got smacked!
see arowanas, the h igh grade stuff, show lots of colouring at a young age.
so when you buy, and you get one with gorgeous colours at a small size, you know it will get bigger with better colours lol

applied it here. i was wrong.

i bought two for the colours. didnt see anything else!
now i know!

[tcyiu]

thats where i got smacked!
see arowanas, the h igh grade stuff, show lots of colouring at a young age.
so when you buy, and you get one with gorgeous colours at a small size, you know it will get bigger with better colours lol

applied it here. i was wrong.

i bought two for the colours. didnt see anything else!
now i know!

Expensive fish in Asia get dosed with hormones by unscrupulous dealers to drive up the sale price. That is why you see bright coloration even in juveniles. Be very careful of any juveniles that are brightly coloured. From what I've heard, Asian reds do not get their deep colours until they are around 10 years old.

Tim

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I just have to say that now when I look at other types of fish, I look at eye size...no matter what fish it is. And when the eyes are big, I think, "this fish is stunted!" when that rule probably does not apply to other fish at all. But I'm so used to seeing small eyes on discus and finding it attractive that big, normal eyes on other fish look silly!

[mmorris]

I just have to say that now when I look at other types of fish, I look at eye size...no matter what fish it is. And when the eyes are big, I think, "this fish is stunted!" when that rule probably does not apply to other fish at all. But I'm so used to seeing small eyes on discus and finding it attractive that big, normal eyes on other fish look silly!

LOL I do the same thing.

[henward]

as a general rule of thump, i know this also applies in other fish
but things like dats - they have big eyes anyways cos they are hunters in dark waters.

but in saying that, as a general rule i think this is accurate.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Nah my black moor's eyes are HUGE! I imagine it is so he can see better :P
JK! Clumsiest fish hands down. But I don't necessarily think the rule applies to all fish. Maybe cichlids, but not all.