discus staying in top left corner of tank

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I came home today to find that my red marlboro is staying in the top left back corner of the tank. All fins are clamped, breathing rate seems to be a little slow, sometimes drifts to bottom and swims back up. He is kind of suspended with his head a little bit up. No other physical symptoms except maybe a little extra slime coat? I can't exactly tell. I just changed 10% of the water and added some stress coat. He is also kind of tipped on the side. Feces is normal. All other fish are normal.
Temp 84
pH 7.2
0 ppm ammonia
0 pom nitrite
15 ppm nitrate

What do I do?!


EDIT: now my smallest blue diamond has joined the red marlboro by doing the same thing and is suspended right next to the RM. :( whats happpeeennnninnggggg

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Okay, update:

Upon double checking levels with a dropper, it appears that my nitrite level is at about 0.5 ppm for some unknown reason? I have added salt to the aquarium to hopefully bring it down or help reduce stress. My GH is about 100, KH about 40.
I really don't know what could have caused this. I did a water change friday night, but all fish were fine through saturday afternoon. I always treat with prime. I went up to canada last night, my mom fed them dinner, and this afternoon I come home to this fish acting strangely. I've never heard or read about these symptoms so I'm not even sure how to start treating! :(

[kitykatfunkiehat]

He's now laying almost on his side. Well pretty much.

[nc0gnet0]

Have you done a water change? That is the first thing I would do. Second is to ask mom what she fed them and how much.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I did one as soon as I got home.
I told mom specifically to put in only three cubes of beefheart at night and a few omega one flakes for this morning which is my usual routine. She's pretty good about knowing how much to feed them,

[nc0gnet0]

When you say you did one when you came home are you refering to the 10% water change? If your getting a nitrite spike, that won't do much, you need to do a 50-75% one IMHO.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I know I will do another one, I just had noticed uneaten food and stuff so I just quickly vacummed it up and thought he might perk up but he isn't :(

[Eddie]

Jenna,

Fill this out please.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545

Very sorry to hear about the fishes, hope I can help.

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

As far as I know the problems started this morning. He's inactive and staying at the top of the tank.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

clamped fins, slower breathing, sometimes is head up, sometimes leans on his side against tank wall, but normal coloration. possibly excess slime coat, but I can't really tell. normal poop. normal eyes. no bloat. fins are fine




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

10% water change as of this afternoon, stress coat and aquarium salt



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55 gallon, year old, 3 discus all 3-4"

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

water change 50% every other day, tank has been running for a year, gravel, don't age water but treat with prime

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __84___

- ph __7.2___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0.5__

- nitrate reading __15__

- well water __no__

- municipal water __yes__

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

no. i took all the decorations out.

[Eddie]

Daily 50% water change and add salt at 2 tbsp per 10 gallons. Replace any salt removed from water changes.


Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Doable...but what is wrong? Is he being affected by the nitrite spike? I'm not sure what caused that?

[Eddie]

Doable...but what is wrong? Is he being affected by the nitrite spike? I'm not sure what caused that?

More than likely, definitely don't want nitrites in the tank. Dont worry about using stress coat. ;)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Man, time to get the buckets flowing. I'm totally exhausted from canada last night..but anything for these guys. Should I worry about vacumming the gravel?

[nc0gnet0]

When you say three cubes of beef heart, may I ask what kind? It seems a bit much for three juvies, but maybe I am picturing a different size cube. Do they typically eat this much in say 5 minutes?

[Eddie]

Man, time to get the buckets flowing. I'm totally exhausted from canada last night..but anything for these guys. Should I worry about vacumming the gravel?


If you want to, but I'd just make sure there is no food collecting as this will be a source for nitrites to rise. Also feed light feeds to keep the nitrites in check.

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

I would be carefull if your going to gravel vac right now, be every so carefull as not to disturb any debris into the water column. And you do realize you are going to need to loose the gravel once you get thru this don't you?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

They get really picky at eachother when eating the beefheart so I have to give them their own cube. I usually clean it up after but I wasn't home last night to do it. And the cubes are small, like .5" x .5". It's beefheart I got from meijers, and I forgot what kind :/

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Wait, why loose the gravel entirely? I seriously have like a .5" layer on the bottom. I just really really really do not like BB and when I w/c every other day I vaccum it like crazy.

[Eddie]

They get really picky at eachother when eating the beefheart so I have to give them their own cube. I usually clean it up after but I wasn't home last night to do it. And the cubes are small, like .5" x .5". It's beefheart I got from meijers, and I forgot what kind :/


I'd feed cleaner foods during this time, flakes or worms. Skip the beefheart at this point.

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Okay I have both flakes and worms.
Ps Eddie isn't it like 5 am?

[Eddie]

Okay I have both flakes and worms.
Ps Eddie isn't it like 5 am?


Yup, working 7pm to 7 am for the next few days. :D

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Rough. Okay...going to water change. I'll get back to you in a few.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

K-
Changed about 75% of the water and skimmed the gravel. Added the 2 tbsp/10 gal of salt. Retested nitrites: .25 ppm. It's a start. I'll skip feeding til morning.
The BD is more active but still sort of clamping fins. RM has relocated to the bottom of the tank and is upright but still clamping all fins. They are both kinda twitching..

[joanr]

Jenna, are these the fish you just got in? If not, have you possibly used the same equipment on both tanks?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Just like my water changing hose/syphon. :/

[joanr]

Ok, that's all it would take to cross contaminate. Your new guys in QT are in the 29 gal? These sick guys are in the 55 gal? You really need to use separate hoses and everything when you bring in new fish. I'm not saying this is what made the fish sick, but it is a possibility.

[nc0gnet0]

Should'nt a bleach water dip and good rinse suffice?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Nitrites are back to 0 when I checked this morning. Both the blue diamond and and red marlboro are still kinda dormant in the corner, but the RM is showing way less activity. No other physical symptoms still. I have yet to water change again today and maybe they'll be better off afterwards? If nitrites are not the cause of this problem, what do I look to next?

[nc0gnet0]

Recovery from a nitrite spike will not be instantaneous with getting the water back to good levels, it could take a few days. Keep up with the water changes and monitor closely for any changes or additional symptoms.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Ooohhh. That would make sense! I'll give them a few more days then. I did notice better breathing this morning, it is not as slow as yesterday. Are nitrite spikes in an established tank caused by excess feeding then?

[nc0gnet0]

It is one possible cause. specifically it is the failure of the nitrobacter to be able to consume the amount of nitrite that the nitrosomonas is producing when breaking down ammonia. This is quite common in a tank that is still cycling. As to what would cause a nitrite spike in a cycled tank there are several reasons, one of which you mentioned, others could include a die off of the nitrobacter, a clogged or partially clogged filter, etc. I can think of several possibilities in your case, but, they would at best be a guess.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Hmm well I'll be careful to look out for these things in the future, and I think it may have just been an excess food problem cause my filter is running fine. I need to get a clean up crew to help me out!

[nc0gnet0]

Do you have an UGF?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

No.

[nc0gnet0]

Before you left for canada, did you aggresively (more so than normal) vaccuum your gravel ? What type of filter are you running? Any reduced flow rate?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Nah I did a normal 50% waterchange on friday night. I didn't vacuum any more aggressively as any other time, but I usually am pretty thorough about getting debris and food out and whatnot. I have a Penguin 350 that I actually also cleaned out a bit that night, I just shook off the cartridges in the syphoned tank water. I don't think the flow rate is slower.

[nc0gnet0]

Well the combination of the two coould have temporarily set your filter back a bit. Just keep a close eye on them, it's not definate that nitrite is the only thing causing there distress, but lets hope that is all it is.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Could be. I always have a strong reading of nitrates though, usually constant at about 15-20ppm. Hmm.
Yes I do hope all it is is the nitrites! I may not have caught it right away either, so it could have been brewing in the tank for a little bit beforehand, and it stressed him out. Hopefully we're on the rebound now.

[nc0gnet0]

The only way to get rid of nitrates is through water changes (or plants). If your nitrites are not being consumed, you won't be producing any nitrates. Good luck......

[JaredP]

I know its a pain to have seperate hose setups but you need to. The only part my tanks share are a 50ft hose of the python. Anything that touch's water is uniquely marked. For my 55's they are marked "A" "B" "C" and you guessed it, "D". Each of those tanks have their own python vaccum. Then each of my lower tanks (hospital, fry tank, beta tank) each have their own syphon. It's a pITA but you need to do it.

Also I use a hose that never touch's dirty water to fillmy aging barrels. It's worth that extra pain for them not to get sick.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yeah I suppose it is, I just never thought to use separate ones! But I will from now on. That should have been common sense...durrr!

[Double Up]

Man, time to get the buckets flowing. I'm totally exhausted from canada last night..but anything for these guys. Should I worry about vacumming the gravel?

Long night in Windsor huh? Are YOU feeling ok? maybe your fish are just sharing in your misery following a night of partying on Ouelette st !!!:D

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Long night in Windsor huh? Are YOU feeling ok? maybe your fish are just sharing in your misery following a night of partying on Ouelette st !!!

Hahahaha! I came home feeling fine, actually. Just really tired and annoyed from US customs. The funny thing is...I don't really remember what streets we were on :o
We had free admission into the "boom boom room"....and we stayed at the casino. I've never had so much fun that I don't remember in my life.

[Eddie]

Hmm well I'll be careful to look out for these things in the future, and I think it may have just been an excess food problem cause my filter is running fine. I need to get a clean up crew to help me out!


A clean up crew will create more ammonia+nitrites=nitrates ;)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I think the fish is developing more of an excess slime coat. I can see it kinda cloudy and patchy along his body but only when I look at him head-on. Is this normal of a nitrite spike?

[Eddie]

I think the fish is developing more of an excess slime coat. I can see it kinda cloudy and patchy along his body but only when I look at him head-on. Is this normal of a nitrite spike?


I am not too sure but I think it is possible. What is the nitrite level and are there any other symptoms in the fish?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

It's a solid 0ppm now. Tested twice today, once before the water change (at 0) and once after (still 0). No other symptoms besides the clamped fins and inactivity. His breathing rate has increased since yesterday. He didn't eat when I fed some bloodworms.

[Eddie]

It's a solid 0ppm now. Tested twice today, once before the water change (at 0) and once after (still 0). No other symptoms besides the clamped fins and inactivity. His breathing rate has increased since yesterday. He didn't eat when I fed some bloodworms.


If its been zero and the fish have clamped fins, patchy slimecoat and inactivity...I'd be inclined to say it may be an outbreak of some sort. I know you recently received some new fish and the mixing of equipment may have caused something to occur.

Do you even have any medications on hand?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Prazi pro and some leftover packets of maracyn 2. Otherwise no, cause I haven't had any problems between my two tanks in a year. But petsmart is down the road and has a pretty good selection of the basics. Also, the petstore near my boyfriend has a TON, and he can grab me whatever I need before he gets here tonight. Any suggestions?

[Eddie]

Prazi pro and some leftover packets of maracyn 2. Otherwise no, cause I haven't had any problems between my two tanks in a year. But petsmart is down the road and has a pretty good selection of the basics. Also, the petstore near my boyfriend has a TON, and he can grab me whatever I need before he gets here tonight. Any suggestions?


First things first, can you move the fish into a QT tank or treatment tank? Best to treat them in a bare tank.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I mean, potentially. I don't have a filter with any established media for it to use on the tank. What if I did just treat the tank? Couldn't it be exposed to everyone by now?

[Eddie]

I mean, potentially. I don't have a filter with any established media for it to use on the tank. What if I did just treat the tank? Couldn't it be exposed to everyone by now?


Filters aren't required in treatment tanks, rely on water changes and you won't be feeding/creating waste. Is the tank they are in now, a bare bottom tank? Thought it was substrate....

[diamond_discus]

I know its a pain to have seperate hose setups but you need to. The only part my tanks share are a 50ft hose of the python. Anything that touch's water is uniquely marked. For my 55's they are marked "A" "B" "C" and you guessed it, "D". Each of those tanks have their own python vaccum. Then each of my lower tanks (hospital, fry tank, beta tank) each have their own syphon. It's a pITA but you need to do it.

Also I use a hose that never touch's dirty water to fillmy aging barrels. It's worth that extra pain for them not to get sick.

+1 ... I use seperate hose for WC and refilling. Also ... as mentioned earlier, you need to use seperate equipment for new fish QT tank.

For me, I would move them to a hospital tank right away. I would also add some Quickcure to the tank. Keep doing large clean WC .. with seperate equipment.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Filters aren't required in treatment tanks, rely on water changes and you won't be feeding/creating waste. Is the tank they are in now, a bare bottom tank? Thought it was substrate....

Well then yes! I do have a tank then. I can set it up tonight if need be. I have a separate air pump and heater that has never been in the main tank. It does have gravel, you're right. Does that make a big difference in treatment?

[Eddie]

Well then yes! I do have a tank then. I can set it up tonight if need be. I have a separate air pump and heater that has never been in the main tank. It does have gravel, you're right. Does that make a big difference in treatment?


Yes, substrate bottoms can reduce the efficacy of medications greatly.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Okay. What should I grab?

[Eddie]

Okay. What should I grab?


Larry gave a good suggestion for Quick Cure. Its what I would use also, in this instance. Also, get a few packages of Furan-2 or TripleSulfa, just in case the fish require antibiotics after treatment. Its always better to be prepared for the worst, when treating fish IMO.

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Alright off to petsmart I go! Thanks!

[Eddie]

Alright off to petsmart I go! Thanks!


Sounds good Jenna, keep us updated on the fishes. Also, before dosing Quick Cure, there are some preliminary actions required. Keep tank temp at 82F, add an airstone to the tank and keep the lights off. Also, if the fish have any adverse reactions, its imperative that you perform a water change.

[JaredP]

Quick cure did the trick when I had what sounds like similar symptoms following Eddies direction. I had to treat a entire tank, and in the end lost one (likely to organ failure) about a week later. But your fish are a lot larger.

As Eddie mentioned, watch the tank closely. He advised me to make sure I treated when I could watch them for 2-3 hours, so if anything way off started I could change the water several times to get the tank clear of the medicine.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Okay. Petsmart only had triplesulfa and no quick cure. I was positive they did but it ended up being general cure. Can I treat with the triple sulfa now? It says it treats for body slime, which is what the fish appears to have.

[JaredP]

Okay. Petsmart only had triplesulfa and no quick cure. I was positive they did but it ended up being general cure. Can I treat with the triple sulfa now? It says it treats for body slime, which is what the fish appears to have.

I'd have the boyfriend see if they have QuICK Cure at the LFS near him. I got the large container of it, and it should last me a long time. The reason Eddie suggested QuICK Cure to me was Malachite Green and Formalin in it.

But, let the masters speak about triple Sulfa =D

[kitykatfunkiehat]

He came straight from work, so he wasn't near his house tonight, otherwise I would :/

[nc0gnet0]

Meijers, Walmart, and Kmart all carry quick cure. I can't beleive petsmart didn't have it, maybe they were out.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

No kidding? Really? I'll call them.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Walmart indeed had quick cure. They have nothing useful for fish, except this stuff! And it was $2! Good call nc0gnet0 :D

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I don't know how these discus sleep, I've never seen it happen, but I just checked the tank and they were all LISTLESS and laying on the floor with whiter eyes than usual and slow breathing. I changed out some water and they seem to be displaying more activity but not really. The third discus that wasn't necessarily affected is now a bit darker and also laying with them. What do I do?!

[joanr]

Did you dose the Quick Cure yet?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yes totally forgot to add that part. It was after I dosed with quick cure that I experienced this. I was very careful not to overdose either.

[joanr]

I've never used Qucik Cure, but it sounds like they are having an adverse reaction to it. Wait for Eddie, but I'd get some carbon in the filter in the meantime to get the med out of the water. How much water did you change just now?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I already have carbon in the filter, so I had it turned off for a few hours just to let the meds hit the fish. I turned it on immediately and changed out only about 10%, but the water is no longer blue and the fish seem to be behaving more normally. How do you know when the fish are sleeping? So that I'm just not overreacting?

[joanr]

Ok. fish go into a sleep mode when the room is darkened and lights out, but they usually just hang in place and rest. They don't lay down on the bottom of the tank. Be prepared to change more water out tonight and if you have a fresh pack of carbon on hand I'd replace the old with some new.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

They all seem to be back to normal currently. I hope I'll be able to sleep tonight...
Thanks Joan! God, that got my heartrate up REAL quick.

[JaredP]

First time I saw discus sleeping I had a heart attack. Were they just at the bottom on their bellies or on their side?

[diamond_discus]

Did you overdoes QuickCure ? One teaspoon is good for 90 gallon. You should turn off your carbon filter. The water will be light blue .. but will go away in a few hours.

[joanr]

That's a good sign, just watch them closely for the next few hours, maybe change out a little more water later on.

[joanr]

Did you overdoes QuickCure ? One teaspoon is good for 90 gallon. You should turn off your carbon filter. The water will be light blue .. but will go away in a few hours.

She turned on the carbon filter to help get rid of the meds since the fish were having a reaction to the Quick Cure.

[JaredP]

When I dosed I acutally used a insulin syringe to measure the CC's accurately

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Um, in my fit of a heart attack, I don't remember exactly how they were...I think on the bottom right up. I tapped the tank, freaked some out, and one kind of tipped over and layed on its side for a minute before it snapped out of it. That one freaked me out. I'll wait on treating with anything until I can water change again in the morning and then have all day to watch them. I dosed as the bottle said, one drop per gallon.

[joanr]

Sounds like a plan Jenna, for now turn off the tank lights and let them rest. They had a rough night. Discus will rest along the bottom in an upright position, it's when they start laying down on their sides that indicates a problem. I think they just didn't take to the meds since they were probably already weakened from whatever is the root cause of all this.

[Eddie]

Jenna, I'm sure you didn't overdose the QC, the fish were merely resting. If you have them in tinted water with the lights out, they will look as you described. Breathing slow is actually a good thing, so no worries on that. If they have an adverse reaction, they will will huddle together, breathe fast, clamp fins and turn very dark. Make sure you keep the carbon out the ENTIRE time the QC is in the tank. You'll want to keep the correct amount of QC in the tank throughout the treatment. Removing it prematurely or lessening the dose is not recommended.


Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Hmm okay. I'll try again then. They totally freaked me out.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

So, I hospitalized the sick fish and treated with the triple sulfa. It looks more like a bacterial problem than what quick cure treats. Their fins seemed a bit ragged, I wouldn't say fin rot, but just weak, and the body slime had increased. This treatment lasts for four days, so four days I'll wait. Should I worry about feeding? I don't think they have appetites.

[Eddie]

So, I hospitalized the sick fish and treated with the triple sulfa. It looks more like a bacterial problem than what quick cure treats. Their fins seemed a bit ragged, I wouldn't say fin rot, but just weak, and the body slime had increased. This treatment lasts for four days, so four days I'll wait. Should I worry about feeding? I don't think they have appetites.


Jenna, most bacteria infections are secondary, meaning there is an underlying issue or issues. If it is parasite, QC will reduce the amount and allow the fish to recover.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

They seem to be doing a bit better! The red marlboro is not longer clamping his fins but isn't exactly swimming around. I can see the body slime all over the tank.
Once this treatment is over I'll go back to the QC then.

[Eddie]

They seem to be doing a bit better! The red marlboro is not longer clamping his fins but isn't exactly swimming around. I can see the body slime all over the tank.
Once this treatment is over I'll go back to the QC then.


Wouldn't worry about the QC after this treatment. Now that you are treating, just finish it up and let the fish rest. Exposure to too much chemicals can be just as bad as disease in itself. Just keep a good amount of salt in the water during treatment with the antibiotics, about 3 tbsp/10 gallons. ;)

Glad to hear they seem to be getting better!

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Totally forgot the salt. I'll go do that now. If after this treatment is over, and after a couple days I see symptoms come back, should I pull out the QC out?

[Eddie]

Totally forgot the salt. I'll go do that now. If after this treatment is over, and after a couple days I see symptoms come back, should I pull out the QC out?

I'm hoping you are no using QC with the antibiotics. :confused:

[kitykatfunkiehat]

No no!! I mean like after this treatment is over and if they're better but then get symptoms back I would use the QC. I'm just using the triple sulfa and salt :D

[Eddie]

No no!! I mean like after this treatment is over and if they're better but then get symptoms back I would use the QC. I'm just using the triple sulfa and salt :D

Okay, you are good. ;)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Two died today. The other seems okay. But I thought that about the two that died too. Ugh

[kitykatfunkiehat]

He's kind of hanging out with his head lower than his body. He seems like hes trying to keep himself upright.

[JaredP]

Is he dark and clamped? Does he have a spotty slime coat?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

No he's normal colored. He does have spotty slime coat but the triple sulfa has been working to rid that. He's not clamping all his fins anymore either.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Could he be bloated? Or have a swim bladder disease? The other two were belly up this morning before they died. He hasn't eaten in a while either.

[JaredP]

Bloat comes from eating too much and suffering constipation.(a very simple description as I understand it).

I was trying to see if he was behaving similairly to the one I recently lost. Hopefully Eddie can chime in here soon =(

[kitykatfunkiehat]

This is what I'm thinking, since they are not responding to the antibacterial treatment:

http://www.discusdiary.com/DISCUS_DISEASE/DISCUS_DISEASES/discus_disease_trichodina.html

I'll probably change all the water out, give him some clean water, and go with QC again.

[waters10]

Two died today. The other seems okay. But I thought that about the two that died too. Ugh
Sorry for your loss. :(

Hope you can save the other! Good luck

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear Jenna, strange and fast killer. :(

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yeah. Really weird. None lost color, eyes stayed red, but body got white slimy stuff and fins seemed weak. Didn't swim much. Were upside down before they died :/
Now I've only got 4 fish if this guy pulls through. skdlfghlksjfdhgdfglkjfdlhj

[Eddie]

Yeah. Really weird. None lost color, eyes stayed red, but body got white slimy stuff and fins seemed weak. Didn't swim much. Were upside down before they died :/
Now I've only got 4 fish if this guy pulls through. skdlfghlksjfdhgdfglkjfdlhj


I'd keep them separate for a while if the one recovers, at least 4-6 weeks after full recovery.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yeah that was my plan. I'm not going to risk losing what I just paid for!

[Eddie]

Yeah that was my plan. I'm not going to risk losing what I just paid for!


Just make sure you are extremely careful to not cross contaminate.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

GOOD NEWS.

My remaining fish is still alive hoorah! And kinda actually appears to be on the mend. I offered a pellet of food, but he hasn't eaten it. I have seen more activity out of him today. He kinda spazzed around earlier but since has kinda slowly gone around the tank swimming normally, and his breathing seems more regular than before, where it was relatively fast. I dosed again today with the QC, I'll let him soak it all up overnight, and provide him with fresh clean water in the morning. He kinda just hangs out by the heater since the tank is only at about 81.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I spoke to soon I think. He seems kinda wigged out since I did a 100% water change. He's clamping fins again, which are all torn up :( He's patchy white still.

[pinoysport]

I spoke to soon I think. He seems kinda wigged out since I did a 100% water change. He's clamping fins again, which are all torn up :( He's patchy white still.

sorry to hear this... i hope they pull through......

[Eddie]

I spoke to soon I think. He seems kinda wigged out since I did a 100% water change. He's clamping fins again, which are all torn up :( He's patchy white still.

Is there a big difference in the water from tap to tank? Is there alot of gas in your water, lots of bubbles?


Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Nope. pH is always the same, never any bubbles either.

[Eddie]

Nope. pH is always the same, never any bubbles either.


If the fish are dropping like flies, dont seem to recover, then I'd move onto something more aggressive. If you have NOT used any quick cure recently and been performing water changes, I'd suggest a 4 hour Potassium Permanganate bath. This is a very dangerous chemical for treatment of fish and you really need to know what you are doing. If you decide on this route, let me know.


Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Sounds like fun...
First question: where do I acquire such chemicals?
Would it really do the trick?
Only the 3 original discus I had dropped like flies. The third is still alive but is ehhhhh now. He's been out of QC'd water since this morning, but I added some salt for him.

[Eddie]

Sounds like fun...
First question: where do I acquire such chemicals?
Would it really do the trick?
Only the 3 original discus I had dropped like flies. The third is still alive but is ehhhhh now. He's been out of QC'd water since this morning, but I added some salt for him.


Not really fun, its very dangerous. I just saw that you did you QC yesterday, I wouldn't treat with PP just yet or at all. I'm gonna shoot you a PM.

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I didn't really think it'd be fun at all :o

[Eddie]

I didn't really think it'd be fun at all :o


LOL, I know...you were being facetious. ;)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Hahah okay good.
I mean yeah, I play around with life threatening chemicals on a daily basis, it's totally normal!

[Eddie]

Hahah okay good.
I mean yeah, I play around with life threatening chemicals on a daily basis, it's totally normal!


Some people like to be mad scientists....:o

[Foxfire]

I did one as soon as I got home.
I told mom specifically to put in only three cubes of beefheart at night and a few omega one flakes for this morning which is my usual routine. She's pretty good about knowing how much to feed them,


The nitrite spike, for me, appears obvious - uneaten beef heart would be a field day for bacteria! If you cannot clean up afterwards, I would think that would be a VERY poor choice of food to have someelse put into the tank (esp. a high temp discus tank.) More processed food does not rot as quickly or as severely and would, I think, cause less of a spike.

Also, if you ever have a spike of anything bad, think about the a BIG water change – a small 10% change removes only 10% of the chemical. Even a 50% change is rather small – leaving 50% behind! In the event of a 0.5 ppm nitrite reading, a 50% WC change just gets you down to a very unacceptable 0.25 ppm nitrite reading!:mad:

You must do a 90% change to get the nitrite levels down ASAP.:angel:

A single 90% water change will result in reducing the nitrites levels down to 0.05 ppm. This result can be obtained using the following: 0.9 *0.5 ppm = 0.45 ppm yields amount removed (NOT amount remaining); then subtract this value from the amount you started with: 0.5 ppm – 0.45 ppm = 0.05 ppm nitrite remaining.

In a similar manner two 75% WC changes yield a nitrite level of about 0.03ppm - that is, the first water change yields: 0.75 * 0.5 ppm = 0.375 removed or to find amount remaining, use (0.5 - 0.375) = 0.125 ppm (nitrite level remaining.) Then the second change (0.75 * 0.125 ppm = 0.094 (rounded) removed resulting in 0.03 ppm nitrite remaining after two 75% reductions (i.e. 0.125 - 0.094 = 0.031 or rounding to 0.03 ppm left.)

Both of these big water changes (a single 90% or two 75% changes) yield very similar reductions of a 0.5 ppm nitrite singal to 0.05 or 0.03 ppm remaining, while the (so called big) 50% change does only a reduction to an unacceptable 0.25 ppm.

A 10% change results in a nitrite reading of 0.45 ppm which is really worthless for discus in all senses of the word since you are still almost at the original value of 0.5 ppm.

Sorry for all the math but water changes and reduction of contaminates is so poorly understood; only VERY large changes 80 – 90% have a big impact; 50% or less does little in removing harmful substances.

Lesson – if the fish are stressed and you have to do a WC, aim for 90% or two 75% :D. There is no way around it.

[Foxfire]

Sounds like fun...
First question: where do I acquire such chemicals?
Would it really do the trick?
Only the 3 original discus I had dropped like flies. The third is still alive but is ehhhhh now. He's been out of QC'd water since this morning, but I added some salt for him.

I think you are jumping the gun. First, you should raise the tank temp to a high 90F. This can do wonders when salt is included.

It sounds like the discus might have eaten the rotted beef heart that might have been left - my discus will hunt for scrapes for hours, and if some of the beef heart got hidden for a few hours, rotted enough for a colony of bad bacteria, and then the discus find it and eat it, trouble!

Even if you used anti biotic, they take more than a day to work on a gut infection!

That is my $0.02.:confused:

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Okay, but A, the nitrites are back to 0 and in control, and B, I think it's too late now..I already jumped the gun then.

[Eddie]

Okay, but A, the nitrites are back to 0 and in control, and B, I think it's too late now..I already jumped the gun then.


Jenna, no worries. Hows the last survivor?

[diamond_discus]

The nitrite spike, for me, appears obvious - uneaten beef heart would be a field day for bacteria! If you cannot clean up afterwards, I would think that would be a VERY poor choice of food to have someelse put into the tank (esp. a high temp discus tank.) More processed food does not rot as quickly or as severely and would, I think, cause less of a spike.

Also, if you ever have a spike of anything bad, think about the a BIG water change – a small 10% change removes only 10% of the chemical. Even a 50% change is rather small – leaving 50% behind! In the event of a 0.5 ppm nitrite reading, a 50% WC change just gets you down to a very unacceptable 0.25 ppm nitrite reading!:mad:

You must do a 90% change to get the nitrite levels down ASAP.:angel:

A single 90% water change will result in reducing the nitrites levels down to 0.05 ppm. This result can be obtained using the following: 0.9 *0.5 ppm = 0.45 ppm yields amount removed (NOT amount remaining); then subtract this value from the amount you started with: 0.5 ppm – 0.45 ppm = 0.05 ppm nitrite remaining.

In a similar manner two 75% WC changes yield a nitrite level of about 0.03ppm - that is, the first water change yields: 0.75 * 0.5 ppm = 0.375 removed or to find amount remaining, use (0.5 - 0.375) = 0.125 ppm (nitrite level remaining.) Then the second change (0.75 * 0.125 ppm = 0.094 (rounded) removed resulting in 0.03 ppm nitrite remaining after two 75% reductions (i.e. 0.125 - 0.094 = 0.031 or rounding to 0.03 ppm left.)

Both of these big water changes (a single 90% or two 75% changes) yield very similar reductions of a 0.5 ppm nitrite singal to 0.05 or 0.03 ppm remaining, while the (so called big) 50% change does only a reduction to an unacceptable 0.25 ppm.

A 10% change results in a nitrite reading of 0.45 ppm which is really worthless for discus in all senses of the word since you are still almost at the original value of 0.5 ppm.

Sorry for all the math but water changes and reduction of contaminates is so poorly understood; only VERY large changes 80 – 90% have a big impact; 50% or less does little in removing harmful substances.

Lesson – if the fish are stressed and you have to do a WC, aim for 90% or two 75% :D. There is no way around it.

Agree, I am a strong believer of big water change.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Surviving. Jungle lab's fungus cure has the same ingredients as furan 2, so I grabbed that and am treating with it. The tank is at like 88 I think, and totally green. Poor thing hasn't eaten in days!

[Eddie]

Surviving. Jungle lab's fungus cure has the same ingredients as furan 2, so I grabbed that and am treating with it. The tank is at like 88 I think, and totally green. Poor thing hasn't eaten in days!

Make sure you keep the lights out. Dont worry about the eating, few of my fish have gone over a month without eating, all alive and happy today, breeding like crazy. The fish will come around. ;)


Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Wow that's a loooong time but also good to know. Don't worry about the lights...I think the bulb is burnt out anyways. Bahah but is fungus cure ok?

[Eddie]

Wow that's a loooong time but also good to know. Don't worry about the lights...I think the bulb is burnt out anyways. Bahah but is fungus cure ok?

Never used but if it has Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone in it, it will be fine. Keep salt like described and the temp. Dont forget to keep a good amount of air in the tank. Keep us posted

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Indeed it does!
I've got an airstone in there, so I think it's okay. We'll see how he is in the morning.
Thanks!!

[Eddie]

Indeed it does!
I've got an airstone in there, so I think it's okay. We'll see how he is in the morning.
Thanks!!


Sounds good, dont worry about the fish eating. Food will just foul the water and prevent/slow recovery.

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

He's swimming around!!
All I did was a 100% water change to clear out the fungus cure, added a cup of salt, and added him! I think he tired himself out and is currently hanging out under the heater again but I haven't seen activity like this in days!!
Pictures and a video to come later :D

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jennabouwens/DSC04220.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jennabouwens/DSC04219.jpg

What his fins look like
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jennabouwens/DSC04221.jpg


The song playing in the background is oh so fitting
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jennabouwens/th_MOV04227.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jennabouwens/?action=view&current=MOV04227.flv)

[Double Up]

Make sure you keep the lights out. Dont worry about the eating, few of my fish have gone over a month without eating, all alive and happy today, breeding like crazy. The fish will come around. ;)


Eddie

I'm treating 5 sick ones right now and 2 of the 5 havent eaten a thing in almost 2 full months.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Jesus! And thats not bad for them?! They don't starve?

[Foxfire]

He's swimming around!!
All I did was a 100% water change to clear out the fungus cure, added a cup of salt, and added him! I think he tired himself out and is currently hanging out under the heater again but I haven't seen activity like this in days!!
Pictures and a video to come later

Great!!! That is good news!:angel:
Large water changes (90% or greater), salt and higher temps work wonders with Discus and should, unless symptoms show an oblivious problem, is the best approach when not sure what to do.:D

[Foxfire]

I'm treating 5 sick ones right now and 2 of the 5 havent eaten a thing in almost 2 full months.

Being cold blooded has its advantages!

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I'll probably repeat this for a few days, give him a break off the meds. Was I on the right track with thinking it's a fungus? By the looks of the pictures?

[diamond_discus]

If it's fungus issue, I would try Methylene Blue. For my fishes, it QuickCure doesn't work, the next medication I would try is Methylene Blue. I found that very effective againt cotton like fungus. I also use that in my breeding tank, to prevent fungus on the eggs. The only problem is that it will make your tank edge silicon seal blue ..

[Eddie]

I'm treating 5 sick ones right now and 2 of the 5 havent eaten a thing in almost 2 full months.


I'd cull those.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I'd cull those.

Rough stuff.
He seems alive and well this morning!

[Spardas]

Rough stuff.
He seems alive and well this morning!

Eddie was referring to Double Up's fishes.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Hah yes I know! That's why I was saying rough stuff. I should've differentiated between my two comments :o

[kitykatfunkiehat]

GOOD NEWS!!!

HE'S EATING AGAIN!
I'm in awe that I brought this guy pretty much back from the dead. Wow.

[joanr]

Great news Jenna, have you pinpointed the reason they got so sick? How are the new arrivals from Mike doing?

[Eddie]

GOOD NEWS!!!

HE'S EATING AGAIN!
I'm in awe that I brought this guy pretty much back from the dead. Wow.


Thats fantastic Jenna, always good to read about success's.


All the best,

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Joan, I think it was a fungus, cause after two days of treating with fungus clear he snapped out of it. It might have been a mix of things as I went through triple sulfa and QC also...but whatever I did worked!

The new arrivals are doing well :D

[joanr]

Joan, I think it was a fungus, cause after two days of treating with fungus clear he snapped out of it. It might have been a mix of things as I went through triple sulfa and QC also...but whatever I did worked!

The new arrivals are doing well :D

Thats good to hear, I'd keep him in QT for another week or so just to be sure, it's always so rewarding when you get to cure a sick fish!

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yup that is my plan! I have not brought a fish back like this before, I feel so good about myself and definitely increased my self confidence with these fish. It is extremely rewarding.