Discus mourn a loss?

[joanr]

I had to cull my BD 2 nights ago. He was getting sick yet again and after months of in and out of Hospital tank I decided to let him go. I did this at night, lights out when they were all in sleep mode to lessen any stress from net in tank. Next day the remaining four would not eat, would not look at me or greet me at front of tank, and all just stayed grouped together looking like it was the end of days. This lasted for a period of 24 hrs. Now they are back begging food and greeting me. I've heard of Elephants mourning the loss of a group member, but Discus? Has anyone else witnessed this sad behaviour? BTW, this was not a paired fish, just one of five.

[Arjunpun]

I did notice when u remove a fish from the group. They tend to be non friendly for certain period. I feel they are most happy when they are in group.

[John_Nicholson]

They are not people, they do not have emotions. All animals react to change. That is all you are seeing.

-john

[joanr]

Well all I can say then is that was one heck of a reaction! But I do think animals have elementary emotions, ask my husband what happens when he pisses off my cat....lol.

[darkknight87]

They are not people, they do not have emotions. All animals react to change. That is all you are seeing.

-john

I don't know if I agree with that. I think some animals do have emotions, particularly more intelligent mammals such as dogs, monkeys, ect.

[YSS]

Well, you heard about the elephants and their emotions. Anyhow, when my large discus died in the tank two days ago, all of my discus were huddled in the cornder and appeared scared (sad? Who knows). I took out the dead fish, and several hours later during the feeding time, they appeared to have forgotten about their fallen friend.

[John_Nicholson]

It is amazing to me. As less and less people live in rural environments the smarter animals get....LOL. Its called Anthropomorphism. It is the process where someone puts human characteristics on animals. I blame Walt Disney myself. Ever since that damned Bambi movie people think that the little skunks play with the little rabbits and so on....LOL.

-john

[erikc]

It is amazing to me. As less and less people live in rural environments the smarter animals get....LOL. Its called Anthropomorphism. It is the process where someone puts human characteristics on animals. I blame Walt Disney myself. Ever since that damned Bambi movie people think that the little skunks play with the little rabbits and so on....LOL.

-john

Thank you John, you just made my day, LOL . Never could stand that little mouse either ...

[Wahter]

It is amazing to me. As less and less people live in rural environments the smarter animals get....LOL. Its called Anthropomorphism. It is the process where someone puts human characteristics on animals. I blame Walt Disney myself. Ever since that damned Bambi movie people think that the little skunks play with the little rabbits and so on....LOL.

-john

What? You mean animals in the forest in "Bambi" don't speak perfect English??? Next, you're going to tell me those dinosaurs in the 2000 movie, "Dinosaur" didn't speak English either!!! :D:D:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHZ3vwX9Fuc

Maybe "Finding Nemo" is to blame? I've told people that Clownfish and Regal Tangs don't really have eyelids. :(:(:(

On another note, I think the discus are just adjusting to a new pecking order/ hierarchy. Their brains are quite small you know... and they don't speak English either! :D:D:D


Walter

[Colorado14erGuy]

John: Just for the record... Humans ARE animals.

[John_Nicholson]

John: Just for the record... Humans ARE animals.

Yes I have a college education and I understand that, but you also know exactly what I meant by what I posted.

-john

[Discus-n00b]

It is amazing to me. As less and less people live in rural environments the smarter animals get....LOL. Its called Anthropomorphism. It is the process where someone puts human characteristics on animals. I blame Walt Disney myself. Ever since that damned Bambi movie people think that the little skunks play with the little rabbits and so on....LOL.

-john

I will agree to a point. But creatures such as Elephants clearly exhibit some emotional distress when an event like losing a herd mate happens. I do think to many people treat their fish like a human child, but for the most part I see this happening most with Bettas. My fish are not my kids, they are a pet. I still enjoy them, but will never treat them as a human.

[dbfzurowski]

Isnt fear an emotion?

[Colorado14erGuy]

John: So you don’t think that the other animals that we share our planet with can experience basic emotions like joy, trust, fear, surprise, and anticipation?

[John_Nicholson]

Ya'll continue on with the animal rights agenda if you want. I'm not biting.....

-john

[mmorris]

Many, and probably most, people used to believe that bears could not feel pain; same with cats and other animals. Now, of course, we know better. How can we be so confident as to say animals, including fish, feel no emotion? Maybe they do; maybe they don't. We don't know.

That said, I remember reuniting a male with his partner after a three-week separation. They had fought over the fry so fiercely I had to separate them. When I put him in her tank, she was really frightened; she wrapped her body around the cone on the far side from him. Suddenly she realized who it was. She lept out from behind that cone with a tremendous burst of energy and was all over him, obviously delighted. Emotion? I suspect. :)

[gwrace]

I've raised a lot of animals over the years both domestic and exotic. I think we'd be a little naive in saying animals do not express some basic emotions. I can think of many examples of fear, excitement, love, affection and playfulness. I guess until the human animal is "all knowing" we won't ever fully understand the concept.

[nc0gnet0]

There are a few concepts at play here. Self preservation, or fight or flight, is pretty basic stuff and common among most mid to higher level animals.

But, what the original poster is refering to is emotion over the loss of a comrade, which is quite different altogether.

I don't think John ever made the argument that no animals have such emotions, but that discus don't.

[YSS]

There are a few concepts at play here. Self preservation, or fight or flight, is pretty basic stuff and common among most mid to higher level animals.

But, what the original poster is refering to is emotion over the loss of a comrade, which is quite different altogether.

I don't think John ever made the argument that no animals have such emotions, but that discus don't.

I took it as John stating that no animals have any emotions.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I totally believe animals have emotions. My cat and dog are full of them, I swear. Martha's story is kind of enlightening, that her fish held the memory of a partner! I would believe that they do have emotions, just not much of a memory, but clearly we could be wrong about that, too :)

[mmorris]

Just see how long they remember what a net is for! :)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

They always remember the net. Everyone scatters asap.

[joanr]

Hey folks, didn't mean to spark a debate about this, I only reported what I observed, no more, no less. If they were just reacting to a change in their environment, or actually missed the little bud and went into a temporary funk, remains to be seen/understood. We don't thoroughly understand Discus dynamics or what makes some humans tick for that matter...

[YSS]

Ha ha. We all think we know more than we do. Me included. :-)

[underwaterforest]

Looking closer and closer at life we see that everything we do is just a huge collection of different chemicals reacting and changing, each contributing to what we consider as "ourselves". Pain is just a perceived human notion which relies on a huge cascade of chemicals, many of which are shared with animals also. Who is to discount that a fish has no emotions when they are using a lot of the same design as ourselves using the same chemicals.

I believe that one of the reasons that we see other organisms as lesser to us is because we can't relate to them in our centric human driven world. But the more we look at ourselves and what we consider animals, the more similarity we find between each other. Even plants use a lot of the same chemical responses that are found within humans to function.

Just because we can't feel thier pain or emotions doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Just my .02

[mmorris]

Very well put Alex.

[fredoman]

It is amazing to me. As less and less people live in rural environments the smarter animals get....LOL. Its called Anthropomorphism. It is the process where someone puts human characteristics on animals. I blame Walt Disney myself. Ever since that damned Bambi movie people think that the little skunks play with the little rabbits and so on....LOL.

-john

Bambi wasn't real???

/cry

[Wahter]

They always remember the net. Everyone scatters asap.


Leave a net in the tank for a few days. They'll get used to it until you move it (they will scatter when you move driftwood too).


Walter

[mmorris]

LOL That's true.

[Rob321]

Hey… I’ve taken Zoology 101, too!

Anthropomorphism really only applies when one attributes uniquely human characteristics to not non-human life forms. The word UNIQUE is sometimes left out of the definition remembered by most people though. Since we are animals (not vegetable nor mineral, right), most of our defining characteristics are surprisingly similar to those of the rest of the animal world. After all, how many of our so-called defining human characteristics (emotional and even rational) were attained eons ago before Homo sapiens had yet to evolve?

The original idea of defining and categorizing what are the unique qualities of our species (i.e., Homo sapiens) began eons ago when philosophical pursuits were in their infancy. One of the first identifying definitions of humans was that WE were TOOL USERS. But early observations soon proved that many non-human animals also applied the use of tools in their daily lives.

A refined definition of the human was that WE are the TOOL MAKERS. But shortly thereafter naturalists began compiling reams of data showing that many non-human species also crafted tools out of readily available materials for their own benefit and success.

Not too many generations ago the idea was postulated that the ultimate defining quality of Man, relative to beast, was that he was the “MAKER OF WAR.” Even though many people weren’t uplifted by the connotations of this ideology it soon came crashing down with the realization that war, in its true sense of battle lines drawn between ‘us and them,’ was observed being practiced in the natural world (i.e., chimpanzee culture).

So what makes us so different from the rest of the beasts on this planet? I don’t know, or wouldn’t even venture to guess at a definition, after seeing the blunders of great thinkers before me, but I can’t help but feel that we must be, in some way, ahead of the rest… maybe we will go down in the logs of history as the most effective species regarding deconstructing the environment that sustains us (although jars of single cell life forms have been doing such since we put them in jars!).

I guess all I can really be confident in saying is that it is very arrogant of us to believe that other species must, by definition, be lesser in their abilities to experience what we consider to be significant perception.

[calihawker]

I've thought about this quite extensively over the last week or so since my wifes friend made the comment that she dosen't like people horseback riding because she thinks the horses "don't like it". Therein lies the problem that you can't use words like happy or sad, to describe what is simply a physical or mental response to a sensory input.

I'm in the middle on this one but have always had the viewpoint that John has. Animals are animals not people regardless of our evolutionary origins, or maybe I should say, hawks are not dogs, sheep are not rabbits, fish are not flamingos and we are nothing like any of them. All of them have different mental characteristics and using human invented words to describe that which we cannot comprehend, the so called emotions of animals, is futile, and quite literaly, anthropomorphism.

I live on a farm and raise many different types of animals so I have a unique perspective over the those living in the city with their lap dog or cat and I've seen some quite remarkable, shall we say responses to stimulus? We raise Anatolian Shephard dogs to protect our livestock from cougars. One day we couldn't locate one of our dogs and a goat. When we found them, the goat was laying on the ground sick and the dog would not leave it's side. A natural response for that breed. When we took the goat to the vet it couldn't be saved and was put down. That dog howled for a week. It was 4 days before she would eat and we thought we'd have to take her to the vet also. Would I call this mourning? Absolutely not since the word has no meaning in describing what was a response in the dog that we, as people cannot comprehend.

[Rob321]

Would I call this mourning? Absolutely not since the word has no meaning in describing what was a response in the dog that we, as people cannot comprehend.

Well then, what does “comprehend” really mean? At what point would you be confident in stating that you fully comprehend another’s awareness or experience? Because even between us humans I could never really be certain that I fully comprehend your level of consciousness, yet I know enough not to just dismiss its significance because of this fact.

By the way, chimps and gorillas have been taught to communicate using American Sign Language, with which they convey many types of ideas to their human handlers, including their emotional states.

[calihawker]

Well then, what does “comprehend” really mean? At what point would you be confident in stating that you fully comprehend another’s awareness or experience? Because even between us humans I could never really be certain that I fully comprehend your level of consciousness, yet I know enough not to just dismiss its significance because of this fact.
That's a good point. Careers are made trying to get into the minds of serial killers. I'd be happy just to figure out what my wifes thinking:D


By the way, chimps and gorillas have been taught to communicate using American Sign Language, with which they convey many types of ideas to their human handlers, including their emotional states.

Yes and Border Collies are known to be able to respond to over 150 voice and hand signals. (I have one of those too;)) Like I said, I'm in the middle on this one. I love all my animals even if it isn't reciprocated. Sometimes it scares me what people do to animals, but it also scares me to hear people like my wifes friend saying the horse dosen't "like" to be ridden so we shouldn't ride them. And of course we know that many in the peta community think fishkeeping should be abolished.

I hear Al creeping up behind me as I write this getting way to off topic and will probably be thrown into another section of the forum.:o

[Rob321]

Hey,

This was an interesting topic to have a friendly debate about. :argue:

But just like debates about politics or religion, I doubt we could actually resolve the matter here.

Cheers! :)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I kind of just am thankful for everyday that my animals can not talk...cause the things they could say after what has been observed would not be good!