Does it bother you to sell off your fry knowing the buyer won't provide proper care?

[ExReefer]

I know many of us keep adults and end up with breeding pairs. Some even spend big money on proven pairs. Unless you are running a business, what's the point of rasing fry? I know many of us raise the fry for personal enjoyment, but at the end of the day, does it bother you to sell off or give away your discus knowing the buyer is inexperienced? It just seems like a ton of work to make a little cash and possibly provide a death sentence for your discus.

[mlw]

don't think I would sell to someone who couldn't take care of them. Had a similar experience with my cockatiel. Was giving her away. The woman showed up said hwo excited she was to get one for free. Then she began to talk about all the pet birds she had killed and I took the bird back. I told her I didn't think she was the right owner for Ricky. I talked my co-worker who had kept and bred cockatiels in to taking her.

[brewmaster15]

I have refused to sell my fry/juvies/adults to many people...I will not ever sell a fish to a hobbyist that I Feel is not prepared or skilled enough to take proper care of them....I do this for 3 reasons...
1) its not fair to the hobbyist as they then go on to harbor negative feelings about Discus keeping
2) Its not fair to the Fish that deserves to be cared for properly.
3) Its not fair to Me personally...If a buyer stunts a group of fish or causes them to become ill...It can negatively impact my hard earned reputation.

Hth,
al

[ExReefer]

The problem is exaggerated when people sell off discus at bargin prices. It’s a lot easier for a novice to accept failure when he bought six juvies at $10 ea. vs. $50 ea. Our sponsors weed out the novice discus keeper with expensive pricing and shipping costs. There will always be people selling at bargin prices to make room for the next batch of fry or to get out of the hobby. Our sponsors seldom have to discount their pricing.

[John_Nicholson]

I explain to everyone that comes out what it takes to raise discus. I go to great lengths to make sure they understand. At that point its up to them. If they want to buy them, take them home, and fry them for dinner its up to them.

-john

[kaceyo]

It does bother me, but when I sell them it's because I don't have room to keep them, so the only other options are to cull perfectly good fish or stop breeding. There just aren't enough qualified hobbiests answereing my adds to turn down customers.

[ExReefer]

I explain to everyone that comes out what it takes to raise discus. I go to great lengths to make sure they understand. At that point its up to them. If they want to buy them, take them home, and fry them for dinner its up to them.

-john

So you go the full disclosure route. I think that’s responsible, but another way to make people think hard about their purchase is to keep the prices high. Unfortunately, many of us need to sell off stock because we have become so consumed with breeding discus. We let the old batch go at discount rates so we can make room for the next batch of fry. I see this quite often on craigslist. A local guy will initially try to sell his fry for a high price and drop the price as weeks or months go by. He simply runs out of space so he sells off the fish at low prices. This practice just seems pointless.

[ExReefer]

It does bother me, but when I sell them it's because I don't have room to keep them, so the only other options are to cull perfectly good fish or stop breeding. There just aren't enough qualified hobbiests answereing my adds to turn down customers.

No disrespect, but another option is to just keep show tanks.

[ExReefer]

Let me just add that I understand the passion of raising fry, I just struggle with it for reasons stated in this thread. I’m just looking for thoughts on the subject.

[John_Nicholson]

I started selling fry for $10 per inch 10 or 12 years ago. It is just easier for me to sale them before I have a lot invested in them. Now if you want to pay more I have plenty of them for sale right now...LOL.

-john

[Tito]

Anybody selling fry for $200 each? I want to buy the most expensive fry that way I can make your Mercedez payment - plus it definitely makes me feel like I bought the best fish in the entire world.

Oh, and I will provide the best care I posibly can - but I'm married and sometimes my wife forces me to have a real life (bummer) then it is posible that I might make a mistake with my tank but I promise I would never hurt the fish on purpose.

Oh, I have small kids - sometimes they do really crazy things - like throw something in the tank...but if I catch them .... I promise I will fry the Discus they killed and place it under their pillow.

[mmorris]

Yes, it is a concern, but like others have said, I do everything in my power to make sure the buyers have the necessary information so they can start off on the right foot, and I make sure they know I am available for support afterwards. I have cycled sponges available that I sell at cost and I ask buyers if they need one. If they don't know, they usually do. It isn't the novice discus keeper that is weeded out by high prices. When prices are high only lower-income people think hard, and it may bar serious but low-income people from the hobby.

[William Palumbo]

In the beginning I turned down a lot of sales due to the hobbysts lack of knowledge or basic aquarium husbandry. They just went elsewhere to spend their money. I don't like seeing or hearing about my fish dying. Which is why I NEVER sell or trade to LFS's. Never have, never will. I recently had to part with 9 adult Discus...Breeder sized. Needed the space and $$$. They buyer assured me he would have no problem in caring for them. They ALL died. A waste for sure. People are not always honest when they want something. Most will tell you want you want to hear. Maybe after losing enough money, they will get serious and learn, or move on to something else. Like John, I explain the basics, and the rest is up to them. Being unemployed leaves me little room now to turn down a sale. Most who buy from me know I always answer the phone and emails in regards to any questions or help they may need. Price-wise, I try and stay competitive. I usually never have to go down in price to move fry. Naturally, the more that get's purchased, the better the price per fish. Otherwise they sell. If on the rare occasion they don't, I just cull a bit more extensively. Dropping the price up and down is not a good practice. They buyers will ALWAYS want, and try to hold you to your latest "sale" price, no matter how long ago it was. Most home breeders know what it costs to raise a sellable Discus. Most times I have $30+ invested in a $20-$25 2 1/2" Discus. I CAN'T go no lower. Breaking even is a blessing. Something that can't be done turning away sales, as I have found out. Sad but true, many breeders and brokers subscribe to the theory that if they die, they will be back to buy more. $$$...

[darkknight87]

I can understand the concern, but its a learning curve for some..not everyone starts out as an expert, or the foreknowledge to come to simply and read , but still love discus and do fine with them. My mother has discus, and she doesn't follow any of the same strict regiments that I do, and she hasnt lost any.
I can see how you may not want them to be stunted....but a stunted discus with great color is alot better off than one that is culled...not only for the inexperienced fish keeper, but for the fish itself.
I couldn't cull a bunch of fry, just because I didn't have space. Just seems unfair to me, that you'd rather cull the fish then let someone with no experience try them out. They probably will have problem, but the problems will bring them here and they may have better luck and end up like me...going from buying pathetic discus from a lfs, to ordering from Kenny and having 150 gal show tank.

All I'm saying is ..its fine to not sell them to the wrong people...but Id give those people a chance before I just culled a whole batch for no reason other than room.

[William Palumbo]

Culling is a touchy subject. Is something I don't look forward to, but as a resposible breeder I have to. I don't just kill fish to kill them. Room or not. Selling or not. Culling ensures I end up with the BEST from a spawn. Quality everyone can benefit from. I have in the past gave away(free) culls to people. Unfortunately. those are usually the Discus that wind up in pics on the forums. If I cull 250 fry from a batch of 300, keeping the BEST 50...trust me, I am doing myself, customers, and the hobby a justice. Culling is usually done at a very early age once defects become apparent. A lot of times at dime-sized or smaller. Most average hobbyists can't keep such small fry alive...and to continue to feed and use electric on a tank of culls is ENTIRELY out of the question...Bill

[Foxfire]

In the beginning I turned down a lot of sales due to the hobbysts lack of knowledge or basic aquarium husbandry. They just went elsewhere to spend their money. I don't like seeing or hearing about my fish dying. Which is why I NEVER sell or trade to LFS's. Never have, never will. I recently had to part with 9 adult Discus...Breeder sized. Needed the space and $$$. They buyer assured me he would have no problem in caring for them. They ALL died. A waste for sure. People are not always honest when they want something. Most will tell you want you want to hear. Maybe after losing enough money, they will get serious and learn, or move on to something else. Like John, I explain the basics, and the rest is up to them. Being unemployed leaves me little room now to turn down a sale. Most who buy from me know I always answer the phone and emails in regards to any questions or help they may need. Price-wise, I try and stay competitive. I usually never have to go down in price to move fry. Naturally, the more that get's purchased, the better the price per fish. Otherwise they sell. If on the rare occasion they don't, I just cull a bit more extensively. Dropping the price up and down is not a good practice. They buyers will ALWAYS want, and try to hold you to your latest "sale" price, no matter how long ago it was. Most home breeders know what it costs to raise a sellable Discus. Most times I have $30+ invested in a $20-$25 2 1/2" Discus. I CAN'T go no lower. Breaking even is a blessing. Something that can't be done turning away sales, as I have found out. Sad but true, many breeders and brokers subscribe to the theory that if they die, they will be back to buy more. $$$...

I think you have a great attitude and I hope you make $$$. You are honest, straight forward and a credit to the good people that try and make an honest living selling something that people like me want - I accept my mistakes and need to learn sometimes the hard way.

Good luck and I hope some day to be able to buy from someone like you.

[Disgirl]

Even though I love the process of breeding discus and raising the fry, I now live where there is no one to sell them to. So, if and when my discus spawn, I will have to remove their eggs from the tank. I have chosen to have just a show tank rather than raise fry to sell or give away to folks who have no idea what to do with them. Can't bear the thought of my baby discus going to certain death. Same goes for all my angelfish.

But I am happy to keep making breeding cones for those of you who do breed and raise discus! I just won't be using them myself:(
Barb

[ExReefer]

Culling is a touchy subject. Is something I don't look forward to, but as a resposible breeder I have to. I don't just kill fish to kill them. Room or not. Selling or not. Culling ensures I end up with the BEST from a spawn. Quality everyone can benefit from. I have in the past gave away(free) culls to people. Unfortunately. those are usually the Discus that wind up in pics on the forums. If I cull 250 fry from a batch of 300, keeping the BEST 50...trust me, I am doing myself, customers, and the hobby a justice. Culling is usually done at a very early age once defects become apparent. A lot of times at dime-sized or smaller. Most average hobbyists can't keep such small fry alive...and to continue to feed and use electric on a tank of culls is ENTIRELY out of the question...Bill

Bill, your reasoning is justified in my mind. You are in it for the business aspect. Not to say you don't enjoy raising discus.

The people that raise them for "fun" and sell them off for cheap ruin it for guys like you. (I personally don't see the fun in this.)

[Foxfire]

Culling is a touchy subject. Is something I don't look forward to, but as a resposible breeder I have to. I don't just kill fish to kill them. Room or not. Selling or not. Culling ensures I end up with the BEST from a spawn. Quality everyone can benefit from. I have in the past gave away(free) culls to people. Unfortunately. those are usually the Discus that wind up in pics on the forums. If I cull 250 fry from a batch of 300, keeping the BEST 50...trust me, I am doing myself, customers, and the hobby a justice. Culling is usually done at a very early age once defects become apparent. A lot of times at dime-sized or smaller. Most average hobbyists can't keep such small fry alive...and to continue to feed and use electric on a tank of culls is ENTIRELY out of the question...Bill

In nature, this is always done and improves the breed - these are not humans and fact is, all our breeds of dogs and horses were achieved by this practice. Thank you for keeping the paid for stock strong, healthy and worth the price.

[pinoysport]

Even though I love the process of breeding discus and raising the fry, I now live where there is no one to sell them to. So, if and when my discus spawn, I will have to remove their eggs from the tank. I have chosen to have just a show tank rather than raise fry to sell or give away to folks who have no idea what to do with them. Can't bear the thought of my baby discus going to certain death. Same goes for all my angelfish.

But I am happy to keep making breeding cones for those of you who do breed and raise discus! I just won't be using them myself:(
Barb

Barb,

Is that like birth control? LOL!!

Discus do what they do and thats breed. Its nature to them. Understanding you have no market for any fry sales you dont let it get to that point by removing the cone.

Thats pretty responsible thinking. I would do the same.
However, on the flip side someone can pick out the best 2 or 3 out of the fry to keep for their show tank and cull the rest. What they do with their belongings is their business. Even though if we think it is right or wrong.

[kaceyo]

No disrespect, but another option is to just keep show tanks.
I mentioned that to stop breeding was another option in my post. But in reality, for me, that's no option at all. My enjoyment comes from the challenges involved with breeding, and seeing my ideas represented in the offspring I produce.
It doesn't get any better than watching a batch of fry slowly develope.

[roclement]

As long as the buyer is aware of what it takes to raise/care for discus I have no problem...as was mentioned, buyers are not always honest, it is easy to read and understand what it takes to raise discus, then they get home throw them in a community tank and they all die...

As a hobbyist it is easier to make decisions based on the care of the fish we love, for pros that do this for a living it is unrealistic for them to make sales decisions based on who the customer is, as long as their $$$ is indeed real!

I haven't allowed my 2 pairs to breed for a couple of months untill now since I think I found a good way to raise the fry in partnership with a friend. Once they are of a sealable size, I hope we sell them to good, honest people, but at the end of the day I can only sell them, what happens from there is up to the buyer, the income allows me to keep on enjoying this not-so-cheap hobby of ours!

rodrigo

[Jhhnn]

I haven't advanced to rearing fry, maybe never will, but I see the same sort of issues in many of the inquiries to the forum. People ask questions, ignore the advice, end up with lots of problems, dead fish and disappointment. I'm rather sadly of the opinion that the vast majority of young discus ever sold end up dead within the first six months of leaving the hatchery. If it weren't that way, they'd be as common as goldfish.

Those that survive do so from a combination of knowledge, dedication and just plain luck on the part of their keepers.

Maybe the best approach is as Nicholson lays it out- explain it all, even create a fact sheet, show prospective buyers what you do and how you do it- give them as good an understanding as they can absorb, let 'em run with it. And I suppose Bill and Al have a point in refusing fish to people who are obviously hopeless, because it just means trouble for you down the road.

Dunno how I'll handle it when and if I get to the point of selling homebred fish, but it seems likely that I will, having done pretty well over the last 14 months. Mostly, I just follow the instructions I found here, combined it with some experience from years ago, added money, persistence, luck, and some tech to make it easy on myself...

After that, it's easy, right?

[John_Nicholson]

While I don't want the fish I sale to die I but my average is much better then the average in nature.....Think about. For ever breeding pair in nature on average they produce 2 offspring that reach adulthood and spawn themselves. If a species produces more then that then their population is increasing, less then that it is falling......

-john

[prolude006]

While I don't want the fish I sale to die I but my average is much better then the average in nature.....Think about. For ever breeding pair in nature on average they produce 2 offspring that reach adulthood and spawn themselves. If a species produces more then that then their population is increasing, less then that it is falling......

-john



Exactly........we give our fish perfect conditions and almost always we can grow out most of the babies to adulthood. That will give a huge population even in our hobby. I am blown away by how many fish someone like Hans has and sells all the time, yet I know most of the fish that go to the LFS end up stunted, or dead. He is in a business and I would never have gone into discus if I hadnt seen them in person in my LFS years ago. The fish were not the greatest but now I know more of what im doing and have much better fish as a result of my mistakes and losses. In the wild these discus are either going to be eaten, caught, dry up, natural disasters, human pollution, habitat loss and of course now giant oil spills.
And what does everyone think is going to happen when they put up the gigantic dam in the Amazon???

David

[Eddie]

And what does everyone think is going to happen when they put up the gigantic dam in the Amazon???

David


The discus are gonna get bigger! LOL :D

[dbfzurowski]

Jeez people, how many started keeping discus with little to no knowledge of them? I know i did. You speak of selecting buyers... Pure discrimination! Everyone deserves a chance. It sux when fish get stunt or die but thats life.
Someone here said that they tell customers all
about keeping discus if they dont know how and wish them good luck. i think that is how it should be done.
Anyhow time to go fishing.

[Tito]

Exactly........we give our fish perfect conditions and almost always we can grow out most of the babies to adulthood. That will give a huge population even in our hobby. I am blown away by how many fish someone like Hans has and sells all the time, yet I know most of the fish that go to the LFS end up stunted, or dead. He is in a business and I would never have gone into discus if I hadnt seen them in person in my LFS years ago. The fish were not the greatest but now I know more of what im doing and have much better fish as a result of my mistakes and losses. In the wild these discus are either going to be eaten, caught, dry up, natural disasters, human pollution, habitat loss and of course now giant oil spills.
And what does everyone think is going to happen when they put up the gigantic dam in the Amazon???

David

Nicely put! Cause at the LFS is where I discovered Discus. And the fish I bought were pretty decent and good enough for me to learn how to keep them. They did very well.

[Tito]

Jeez people, how many started keeping discus with little to no knowledge of them? I know i did. You speak of selecting buyers... Pure discrimination! Everyone deserves a chance. It sux when fish get stunt or die but thats life.
Someone here said that they tell customers all
about keeping discus if they dont know how and wish them good luck. i think that is how it should be done.
Anyhow time to go fishing.

I'm glad a few others here are voicing what I wanted to say but I have a tendency of getting in trouble on this board - so thanks to you folks - I don't have to right now! LOL

Nicely said.

Aww heck - let me get into trouble- here it goes!!!!

Everything Looks Terrific. (Code)

[prolude006]

Of course I have no problem with anyone wanting the best for their fish, so I have no problem with a breeder/seller being selective.

David

[dbfzurowski]

I'm glad a few others here are voicing what I wanted to say but I have a tendency of getting in trouble on this board - so thanks to you folks - I don't have to right now! LOL

Nicely said.

Aww heck - let me get into trouble- here it goes!!!!

E Lee test.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if people disagree and cant respect that that's their problem. I'm not looking to pick fights, just executing my right of free speech :)

ps. i love my stunt discus!

[ZX10R]

Jeez people, how many started keeping discus with little to no knowledge of them? I know i did. You speak of selecting buyers... Pure discrimination! Everyone deserves a chance. It sux when fish get stunt or die but thats life.
Someone here said that they tell customers all
about keeping discus if they dont know how and wish them good luck. i think that is how it should be done.
Anyhow time to go fishing.

I have to agree I am new to discus and I ended up loosing 6 fish within the first two months I got them due to lack of knowledge. I have learned so much in the last few months mainly because of this site and talking to breeders over the phone. But still I had to start somewhere and if I was turned down from every seller then how could I have gotten to the place I am now. I also see the sellers point in not selling to newbies because they may end up killing the fish. To me it is like that saying "living is learning" and if your not getting hands on experience them how can you learn even if it cost the life of a few fish. You can't tell me most people on here didn't start as a newbie and hasn't killed a fish some time or another. We all make mistakes some time or another.

Just my thoughts:)

[ExReefer]

It’s definitely a touchy subject. I have a feeling the attitude of “trial and error” would be less popular if we were talking about selling puppies.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I mean, to each their own. Some are in it for the business aspect, some for the enjoyment. I haven't been able to breed yet, but I'd probably stand on the enjoyment side.

[John_Nicholson]

I think it is really only sensitive to people who have been at least a little brain washed by the animal rights movement, for everyone else its just life. There are no guarantees in this old world. Nothing is guaranteed a long life. Life is not fair. I have seen wonderful children that died young. I have seen absolutely sorry SOB's that lived into their 90's. If there is no fairness for people why are you getting so upset because of the possibility of unfairness to a simple fish? I don't mean to sound harsh, but I am sure it will come across that way.

As long as the buyer is making an educated purchase my responsibility for the care of the fish has ended. What the buyer does with his property is his business and his responsibility, no one elses. The real world can be a mean and harsh place. It is that way by design and people's efforts to change that have always failed. I don't see that as changing anytime soon.

-john

[dbfzurowski]

It’s definitely a touchy subject. I have a feeling the attitude of “trial and error” would be less popular if we were talking about selling puppies.

Lol dogs are much easier to care for, hmm new busines idea! Discus shelter!

[brewmaster15]

Interesting,
You spend 3-4 months growing out a batch of fry, water changes galore, food multiple times a day and after all that work you put them up for sale and someone comes wants to buy them within the following scenarios... and these are just some of them.

1) They've never kept fish and want to try keeping them by starting with Discus fry
.
2) They tell you in passing that they've love going from pet shop to petshop and picking out fish for their one 55 gal Tank, and they'll be stopping at so and so LFS on the way home, even after you spent 2 hours talking with them about QT.

3) they've been fighting something in their tank for months now...and haven't figured it out, but want to buy some of your fish..Oh and they've shown you photos on their camera of their fish and it ain't a pretty sight

4) They keep a single cichlid tank.... and want to add discus to it...its currently has oscars and jack dempsies

5) They don't believe in QT...waste of time in their words , never had a problem before and if they do they go to the petshop and buywhatever meds they can find.

6) they only have room for a 20-30 gal tank and travel alot...

7) you've tried educating them but they have shown absolutely no interest in what you are saying and are hell bent on raising them like they want...which you know will kill them.

The list goes on....

Before anyone here thinks they are being discriminated against...think again Discus are not for everyone and the fact that you are reading this forum and posting here means you are probably not one of the people I would turn away... But don't think for one instance that everyone out there looking to buy discus is like you are...They are not...and thats a fact.

If it offends someone that I would do that... Thats fine by me...I bred them, I raised them, and if I think someone is incapable of doing well by them I won't sell them to them..for the reasons I stated.

Incidentally...I did not make that list up...I have had people in all those scenarios try to buy fish from me.... and the few times I second guessed myself I regretted it in a big way.

The title of this thread was..

Does it bother you to sell off your fry knowing the buyer won't provide proper care? (http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=79954)

Theres a world of a difference between a novice willing to do what it takes and someone that refuses to do what it takes....one kills fish... the other does their best to keep them alive and well when given the information to do so.... If you are selling fish its good to be able to tell the difference.

and thats not even getting into how selling to above cases can ruin a good reputation a few months down the road.:(
Regards,
al

[deepflyball]

He does all this because he lives with an angel. Jerry






I have refused to sell my fry/juvies/adults to many people...I will not ever sell a fish to a hobbyist that I Feel is not prepared or skilled enough to take proper care of them....I do this for 3 reasons...
1) its not fair to the hobbyist as they then go on to harbor negative feelings about Discus keeping
2) Its not fair to the Fish that deserves to be cared for properly.
3) Its not fair to Me personally...If a buyer stunts a group of fish or causes them to become ill...It can negatively impact my hard earned reputation.

Hth,
al

[William Palumbo]

I am, and have ALWAYS been into the Discus for the sheer enjoyment of it. It's fun...and when it stops being fun...I quit. To this day, I still get enjoyment when I see a batch of my fry feeding off of the parents. The PINNACLE of Discus keeping. I don't care how long I have been breeding, or how many spawns in the past...it's a sight I never get tired of seeing. In the perfect world every Discus is a perfect one, that dies of old age, no matter who owns it...Bill

[William Palumbo]

Hey Al...#3 and #4 for me the MOST! Those that want to keep them with fancy Goldfish is up there too...Bill

[John_Nicholson]

Here is my conservative mind speaking again....

I am not judging anyone. When someone buys fish from me I would not dream on telling them what to do with their fish. Same goes for Al, Bill, or anyone else that has posted in this thread. As long as you own the fish do with it as you please. If you don't feel comfortably selling a fish to someone then don't. I guess the title might be the problem here. No one know what the future holds. If 20 years ago you told some of the greats in the aquarium trade that we would all be keeping discus in tanks with no gravel or plants and change 50% of the water they would have thought we were nuts. Go to some places in Europe and tell them that you can't grow out nice discus in planted tanks and they will still think your nuts. I guess what I am saying is just because someone does not do exactly like you do does not make their way wrong. They might be on the cutting edge and we might be the ones behind. Only time will tell.

I still stand behind my original post. I tell people what it takes to "in my opinion" properly raise discus. At that point they can make a decision on if they want to buy fish or not. If they do great, if they don't that is also great. It will not end my day one way or another.

-john

[dbfzurowski]

I understand Al, you care for your fish and you wish the best for them. I'm just thinking of me when i got into discus with no knowledge of them. I didnt qt crazy ovetstock in the tank ect. But i had the
will to learn and adjust and if i was unable to buy some i would have never be where i am today( crazy fish guy as my fam says... Lol). And to be honest maybe i should be saying anything until i actualy gget to breeding and selling

[brewmaster15]

Here is my conservative mind speaking again.... Lol John...I actually thought you were being extremely and uncharacteristically liberal in this thread! (say it ain't so) where as I saw myself as being very conservative.(mercy me !:))

To each is own on how to deal with their fry and sales works for me..as a fair discus compromise.

-al

[brewmaster15]

I understand Al, you care for your fish and you wish the best for them. I'm just thinking of me when i got into discus with no knowledge of them. I didnt qt crazy ovetstock in the tank ect. But i had the
will to learn and adjust and if i was unable to buy some i would have never be where i am today( crazy fish guy as my fam says... Lol). And to be honest maybe i should be saying anything until i actualy gget to breeding and selling


Dominik...." But i had the
will to learn" and that makes all the difference...but not everyone out there looking to buy discus is like that. Had you come here to buy discus...I think you would have left here with discus and a better chance to keep them well.

Take care,
al

[dbfzurowski]

Actualy it would been great if i got some tips from the seller when i was buying. I remember about a month ago i saw a guy buying a discus at tje LFS, i took out my b card and wrote down the web adres of this forum and told him to check it out, wonder what hapwned to him...

[dbfzurowski]

Hehe, i know. I am amazed by the quality of fish i see here, but i stil love my F grade lol fish.

[John_Nicholson]

"Lol John...I actually thought you were being extremely and uncharacteristically liberal in this thread!"

Al do me a favor as a friend...If I ever flip over the liberal side shoot me...please, I mean it.....LOL.

-john

[brewmaster15]

"Lol John...I actually thought you were being extremely and uncharacteristically liberal in this thread!"

Al do me a favor as a friend...If I ever flip over the liberal side shoot me...please, I mean it.....LOL.

-john


Fair enough John...I mean afterall... if we saw eye to eye on everything it'd be pretty boring.;)

-al

[ExReefer]

Fair enough John...I mean afterall... if we saw eye to eye on everything it'd be pretty boring.;)

-al

Well said. I think this has been an excellent discussion and we don’t all have to agree.

Two of my adults have paired off spawn every 7-10 days in my display tank. I let the cardinal tetra eat the wrigglers and the process starts over again. Some could argue that I’m being cruel for not raising the fry. I’ve considered the idea of separating the pair, but I get hung up on the issue of selling off fry (possibly at a discount) to inexperienced buyers after all my time and effort put forth. Where I live, I don’t think the demand is great enough to bother growing out fry. As much I would like to watch the parents and fry interact, I still know at the end of the day I’m going to have too many discus.

BTW – I only threw the puppy comment in there to stir it up a bit more. I promise I’m not an animal rights activist. I’m an active carnivore.

[mmorris]

I promise I’m not an animal rights activist. I’m an active carnivore.

You can be both.

[dbfzurowski]

Lol all good.
Of the subject a little, guy fishing next to me pulled in his 4th carp and i didnt have a single bite, wth! Same bait too

[ExReefer]

You can be both.

True!

[John_Nicholson]

You can be both.

I disagree. You can be a normal person who wants animals treated well. That does not make you an animal rights activist. That makes you a reasonable person. A little study of the animal rights movement would probably scare most people. Organizations like PETA or ELF are really more anti-human then they are pro-animal. Most are 100% against pet ownership, much less any type of consumption. 90+% of the true animal rights activist are against everything that we as fish keepers do. One of their main goals is to slowly brain wash people into thinking that animal rights are main stream, they are not. The proper care of animals is, but that is rarely their true desire.

-john

[ExReefer]

I disagree. You can be a normal person who wants animals treated well. That does not make you an animal rights activist. That makes you a reasonable person. A little study of the animal rights movement would probably scare most people. Organizations like PETA or ELF are really more anti-human then they are pro-animal. Most are 100% against pet ownership, much less any type of consumption. 90+% of the true animal rights activist are against everything that we as fish keepers do. One of their main goals is to slowly brain wash people into thinking that animal rights are main stream, they are not. The proper care of animals is, but that is rarely their true desire.

-john

This is accurate. My brother is vegan and an animal rights activist. He think my aquariums are cruel. Also thinks the zoo is cruel. I was just making a joke. I'm for the proper care of animals, but not an animal rights activist.

[John_Nicholson]

This is accurate. My brother is vegan and an animal rights activist. He think my aquariums are cruel. Also thinks the zoo is cruel. I was just making a joke. I'm for the proper care of animals, but not an animal rights activist.

We are in the same place. I just wanted to try and make it clear to everyone else. The nut jobs win when the lines between proper treatment of animals and animal rights become blurred.

-john

[DerekFF]

Im just not cool enough yet to have babies........ :(

[LizStreithorst]

Since I've decided that shipping is cursed mine will all go to the LFS or to the wholesaler. So no, I don't guess it bothers me if they won't be properly cared for. This is why I breed fish, not dogs or what's even harder, show quality dairy goats.

These are fish. I prefer to believe that they don't feel pain as mammals do. I care for mine well and love raising fry, but the excess must be sent on their way. I wish it were otherwise...that everyone who bought a Discus would take proper care of it, but this is not a perfect world.

Phew...I've watched this thread and have finally got this off my chest.

[Jhhnn]

I can appreciate Liz's POV, as well. It's thoroughly practical in a way that a rancher would view their stock, for example, and probably the way that the people who breed discus on an industrial scale view it, too. Hell, their efforts are responsible for the fish I enjoy so much, so I really can't complain.

In that fashion, a breeder can pick the young fish they want to keep, if any, not have to deal with clueless customers, and provide an honest product to the marketplace. They've done their part, accepted reality, and can have faith in the idea that at least some of the fish they reared will survive. It seems clear that not all LFS discus are doomed, judging from some of our contributors and their posts...

I think it's important to realize that not everybody who's an activist for the humane treatment of animals is an extremist. Temple Grandin, for example, designs livestock handling facilities in a way that promotes humane treatment, even as they're being slaughtered, for example... and the activists who promoted cruelty to animals statutes 100-150 years ago had no illusions wrt the ultimate fate of the creatures they sought to protect at the time...

[LizStreithorst]

Temple Grandin is my hero. I have all her books except the latest. She sure wouldn't approve of bull fighting, though. http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=15336

Being a breeder is not easy unless you're heartless. It doesn't matter what species. Good breeders are forced by circumstances to do things that we would rather not. I'm a breeder at heart and I accept that. It's easier to deal with working with fish.

[Willie]

Lucky for me, Liz shipped me spectacular Albino Red Gold Diamonds before swearing off shipping. They are still the most spectacular discus I ever had.

Willie :p

[John_Nicholson]

"I think it's important to realize that not everybody who's an activist for the humane treatment of animals is an extremist. "

Wanting humane treatment of animals and being an animal rights activist are two entirely different things. That is the point that I am trying to get across.

-john

[mmorris]

Animal rights activists can actively pursue measures that will promote the humane treatment of animals without pursueing the courses of action you are referring to. One of my closest friends very actively works with the local humane society to raise funds and find good homes for homeless pets. Is she an activist? Most certainly. An extremist? Not at all. Why link 'activism' with 'extremism'?

[John_Nicholson]

"activism' with 'extremism'" because most ( not all ) of the time they are. The animal rights movement has been brain washing people for years. I am just trying to slow that down. So many people are duped into giving money to organizations thinking they are helping animals when in fact they are just padding the pockets of groups that are extremest. The humane society of the United States is one of the worse, but few people know it. Many of the local humane society's are fine.

-john

[Discus-Hans]

Told this many times before and stand still behind it.

If every Discus I brought in the last 5 years, still would be alive, grown up and breeding for my customers. I would be out of business.

I thank everybody from the bottom of my hart for killing a good amount of Discus year in, year out. It keeps my business going.

And that's what it is,

Hans.

[peterhql]

haha brutally honest, your welcome hans.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I think the fat lady just sung.
That's you, Hans ;)

[Spardas]

If you're in it for business, then it's the bottom line. :D

[Tito]

If I had a chance to breed Discus and.....

I needed to get some tires for the car and .....

It was between the savings acount and selling my fry.....

Then I'm selling my fry to a five year old girl scout selling cookies!! And anybody else for that matter.

I need the money for the tires man! LOL

Hans - you're so brute honest - I like.

[gwrace]

"Lol John...I actually thought you were being extremely and uncharacteristically liberal in this thread!"

Al do me a favor as a friend...If I ever flip over the liberal side shoot me...please, I mean it.....LOL.

-john

+1 Same here...:D

[Jhhnn]

Temple Grandin is my hero. I have all her books except the latest. She sure wouldn't approve of bull fighting, though. http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=15336

Being a breeder is not easy unless you're heartless. It doesn't matter what species. Good breeders are forced by circumstances to do things that we would rather not. I'm a breeder at heart and I accept that. It's easier to deal with working with fish.

I think the term you're looking for is "dispassionate".

As a teenager, my brother and I kept and bred racing homers. Part of it all was taking young birds further and further from home, releasing them, letting them find their way home. Losses were inevitable, but an accepted part of the program, if you will. Birds that don't come home for whatever reason aren't any good to somebody who races 'em... At the time, their homing instinct was poorly understood, still is, I suspect. Birds purchased from other breeders that had been extensively raced had to be kept prisoner for years, sometimes forever- if they got out, they flew home...

The only birds I ever developed any emotional attachment towards were ones that had been successful racers and had been retired to breeding...

[Scribbles]

I think that there is a happy medium. I haven't sold discus fry but I have bred and sold other animals. I give prospective owners the best advice that I can, try to make sure that they have the bare necessities for proper care, and hope for the best. I hope to hear back if things go well and hope that I don't if the sh1t hits the fan.

Chris

[Tito]

As I continue to read these posts I'm starting to wake up.

If any creature we kept in a cage, tank or other contraption that we make to contain them - if those creatures could speak - I bet many would be saying get me the heel outta here LOL

So - I think that any sentiment in this thread in the likes of what's best for the creatures really requires some re-evaluation.

At least I'm honest. If I bred some fish what would it matter where the babies go - they will still be boxed in somewhere. So does it really make a difference.

Truthfully I think one person and maybe others in here - said the truth and what it boils down to - (Money) - someone said they would not want to see their fry one day become a stunted fish in the hands of some newbie - but of course not - that would be bad for YOUR business. And that is what I really think is at the heart of the matter here.

Got ma poker face on....LOL

[ExReefer]

At least I'm honest. If I bred some fish what would it matter where the babies go - they will still be boxed in somewhere. So does it really make a difference.

Boxed in a dedicated discus tank, fed six times a day, daily WC’s vs. Boxed in elsewhere, fed flake food once a day, WC’s once a month, water temp 78 deg., housed with Convict Cichlids.

Yeah, that’s the same thing.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Boxed in a dedicated discus tank, fed six times a day, daily WC’s vs. Boxed in elsewhere, fed flake food once a day, WC’s once a month, water temp 78 deg., housed with Convict Cichlids.

Yeah, that’s the same thing.

+1

There is a difference between keeping fish happy and healthy, and keeping fish just cause they're pretty.
Also true story...I saw wild green tefe's being housed with an arowana at an LFS. No joke.

[Tito]

No. It would not bother me. That's my answer.

[brewmaster15]

Boxed in a dedicated discus tank, fed six times a day, daily WC’s vs. Boxed in elsewhere, fed flake food once a day, WC’s once a month, water temp 78 deg., housed with Convict Cichlids.

Yeah, that’s the same thing.

No.....It is not!!!:( It may be the same thing to a keeper of Fish. It is not the same thing to Discus Hobbyist.

Each species of fish should be kept in conditions that will allow it to thrive.. same goes for any animal......whats the point in keeping something as majestic as a discus if you do not keep it under conditions that allows it to thrive and reach its full potential.

I realize I am in the minority here by the comments which is fine...been there before and good at walking to my own beat.... but I am actually a bit surprised by some of the comments in this thread....and disappointed. This forum is supposed to be a place that promotes good information on Discus Husbandry, care and keeping.

Strong opinions in this thread so far... So heres mine.....We get upset when someone sells culls, but what I am hearing is we could care less if we sell fish to people that have given us every indication that they'll turn them into culls or worse????? :mad: Thats not the way the way to promote this hobby, IMO. If you do not care how this beautifiul fish is kept by someone you sell to...I don't see that as promoting the hobby of Discus keeping. Of course you can't control what will happen when someone buys your fish... I'm not talking about that...I am talking about selling to someone that has no intention of keeping them properly.

I don't look at it as being animals rights activist either. and really don't see it as being an issue here... ..I cull when needed I euthanize as needed...,....I don't have any illusions that these are anything other just fish.... I just don't find it ethical according to what I think is important in this hobby's future. This are just my opinions and everyone has one them I am sure.

I guess I am a little different here......I consider myself a hobbyist not a breeder. I keep and breed Discus because I greatly admire this flat fish...I own and run this forum to promote proper husbandry and care of this fish...so to me... selling a fish to someone who has indicated they will not treat that fish as it should be kept is just not an option.
I'm not in this to sell fish...I'm in this to promote the hobby...

So I stand by what I said...If someone comes here and wants to buy fish yet is not going to take care of them properly even after I have tried to educate them... They can go somewhere else....sale lost big deal...I'd rather have someone raise those fish correctly and do justice by them...I believe thats the best way to move the hobby forward...

This thread started off asking " Does it bother you to sell off your fry knowing the buyer won't provide proper care" ? Whether you sell them or not to that hobbyist... It should at least "bother" you if you know someone is not going care for them...

No more preaching here from me....

Regards all,
Al

[Terrybo]

Amen Al! Well said!

Terry




I keep and breed Discus because I greatly admire this flat fish...I own and run this forum to promote proper husbandry and care of this fish...so to me... selling a fish to someone who has indicated they will not treat that fish as it should be kept is just not an option.
I'm not in this to sell fish...I'm in this to promote the hobby...
... It should at least "bother" you if you know someone is not going care for them...

Regards all,
Al

[John_Nicholson]

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the question. While I have been highly successful at raising discus over a long period of time should I assume that every one has to do it my way? Just because someone else does it differently can I say that is wrong? What if they have found a better way but it sounds wrong to me? Can I make the judgment call that my knowledge is somehow superior to theirs? Everyone has their opinions and I support that 100%, but I will stick with explaining what I think it takes and then let the buyer make up their minds from there.

-john

[brewmaster15]

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the question. While I have been highly successful at raising discus over a long period of time should I assume that every one has to do it my way? Just because someone else does it differently can I say that is wrong? What if they have found a better way but it sounds wrong to me? Can I make the judgment call that my knowledge is somehow superior to theirs? Everyone has their opinions and I support that 100%, but I will stick with explaining what I think it takes and then let the buyer make up their minds from there.

-john

Sorry John, agree to disgree then:).

This is not about differing ways of doing it. You and I both know that although theres a wide range of ways of keeping Discus....There are definetly many ways not to keep them.. ..and whether a person is an experienced Discus Hobbyist or Experienced breeder I think we know when a prospective buyer is outside that range...we may chose to ignor it ... but we know it.


-al

[John_Nicholson]

Its all good on my end. You know I just like a healthy debate....LOL.

-john

[Tito]

I definitely agree with Al that Discus are majestic - I just love them!

But...

I really can't justify myself judging what someone else does with a fish. In fact - they may say all the right things then go home and kill them in two days! How many of us have met the text book hobbyist. Know all the things the text books say but know nothing about doing it in real life.

At least if they are honest up front and tell you they are going to keep them in with Aligators - you get the chance to say hey I don't think that's a good idea while your packing their fish and taking their money!

[Apistomaster]

My solution to the problem is to sell my Discus only at wholesale prices to shops which are comfortable carrying Discus in the first place.
I leave it up to them to help guide their prospective Discus customers in the right direction.

I find that for the most part, in a given market, that only a few shops carry Discus because they know how to keep them alive until they are sold. The other shops tend to be run by people who feel Discus are too difficult for them to keep so they stopped trying after a few attempts at being Discus sellers. Word spreads in these markets as to who sells decent Discus and those shops get nearly all the business.

I don't think I have sold more the about 4 dozen of my tank raised Discus at retail(Not counting when I owned a fish shop) in all the years I have been involved with them. Anyone who has gone to all the work of finding me tends to be fairly serious and hardly new to Discus keeping.

I use this forum to help share some of my experience and am glad that it exists. I can reach far more people here than I could if I were trying to retail any of the Discus I raise and had to lead the customers by the hand to help them keep their Discus. Already have one local friend with years of experience keeping and breeding Discus and he still depends on my advice because he thinks it's too much work to actually research for the answers to his questions when all he has to do is call me. It would drive me nuts if I had any more like him. All questions seem to boil down to one thing; why do Discus do whatever it is they are doing? The answer is always the same; because they are Discus, they behave like Discus.

[j_li8]

Although I have been keeping fish on and off for 15+ year now, since i was 5, i did end up on the other side of the fence. I went into one of my LFS and they reccommended my not to buy their fish at that time because i had just recently started up another tank. The way they worded it offended me but i understood where they were coming from. They just cared about their fish. I had another time where I went to purchase some angelfish for my uncle, QT'd them and then brought it over to him. 2 months later all of them were dead which bothered me. He had originally wanted to get some discus but when i told him the time i spend doing maintenance he decided that it was best not to and I can respect him for that. Now i have lost my fair share of fish over the years, but sites like SD have increase my knowledge of keeping an aquarium overall.

[Scribbles]

No.....It is not!!!:( It may be the same thing to a keeper of Fish. It is not the same thing to Discus Hobbyist.

Each species of fish should be kept in conditions that will allow it to thrive.. same goes for any animal......whats the point in keeping something as majestic as a discus if you do not keep it under conditions that allows it to thrive and reach its full potential.

I realize I am in the minority here by the comments which is fine...been there before and good at walking to my own beat.... but I am actually a bit surprised by some of the comments in this thread....and disappointed. This forum is supposed to be a place that promotes good information on Discus Husbandry, care and keeping.

Strong opinions in this thread so far... So heres mine.....We get upset when someone sells culls, but what I am hearing is we could care less if we sell fish to people that have given us every indication that they'll turn them into culls or worse????? :mad: Thats not the way the way to promote this hobby, IMO. If you do not care how this beautifiul fish is kept by someone you sell to...I don't see that as promoting the hobby of Discus keeping. Of course you can't control what will happen when someone buys your fish... I'm not talking about that...I am talking about selling to someone that has no intention of keeping them properly.

I don't look at it as being animals rights activist either. and really don't see it as being an issue here... ..I cull when needed I euthanize as needed...,....I don't have any illusions that these are anything other just fish.... I just don't find it ethical according to what I think is important in this hobby's future. This are just my opinions and everyone has one them I am sure.

I guess I am a little different here......I consider myself a hobbyist not a breeder. I keep and breed Discus because I greatly admire this flat fish...I own and run this forum to promote proper husbandry and care of this fish...so to me... selling a fish to someone who has indicated they will not treat that fish as it should be kept is just not an option.
I'm not in this to sell fish...I'm in this to promote the hobby...

So I stand by what I said...If someone comes here and wants to buy fish yet is not going to take care of them properly even after I have tried to educate them... They can go somewhere else....sale lost big deal...I'd rather have someone raise those fish correctly and do justice by them...I believe thats the best way to move the hobby forward...

This thread started off asking " Does it bother you to sell off your fry knowing the buyer won't provide proper care" ? Whether you sell them or not to that hobbyist... It should at least "bother" you if you know someone is not going care for them...

No more preaching here from me....

Regards all,
Al



Well said Al!!!

Chris

[Apistomaster]

BTW, Keeping some wild Discus with an Arowana is not a problem as long as the tank is large enough for each to live in its own way. Arowanas do not live well together so there is only going to be one large one. It will live at the surface like Hatchetfish and mind it's own business while the wild Discus pursue their lives near the bottom. Wild Discus have instincts which are fine tuned enough to tell a real threat from just some other larger fish swimming by looking for something with less spines and a more streamlined shape.

I have combined these two fish(Full disclosure: I only have kept 22" Arowanas with adult S. haraldi and S. discus; never got around to trying any Greens.) many times in appropriately large tanks and the Discus did not live in fear. Arowanas only bother other Arowanas or fish small enough to swallow in one gulp.
Adult Tefe Discus just aren't on an Arowana's diet and know it.
This line of reasoning would have been better if the offensive fish were Green Terrors or even the much smaller Convict Cichlids. Even some of the Pike Cichlids may be kept with large wild Discus without any problems. I personally have only used dwarf pikes but most piscavores only bother what they can easily gulp. I wouldn't try combining wild Discus with any Piranha spp. Many are happy to just eat the fins and scales of larger fish.

[Jhhnn]

As a hobbyist, I mostly agree with Al. Discus definitely aren't for everybody. Few are willing to invest in the means to make it work well, or in the time and extreme dedication required as an alternate method. For me, anyway, the whole thing requires diligence and a systematized approach where i substitute time up front, money and ingenuity for effort over time. If I had to change water w/ buckets or even with a python, I'm sure my slacker nature would show through, and I'd have lots of problems.

I strongly suspect that's what happens to many people and their discus over the long run. They discover that they can change water less often, but the fish seem OK. They discover that the fish seem OK when all they get to eat is whatever flake food their keepers have on hand, so forth and so on... until, one day, it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

I'd personally be uncomfortable selling any of my fish to parties who clearly were doomed to failure with it all, and I'd probably feel the same way wrt young fish I'd raised myself. I haven't crossed that bridge at this point, but I do want to breed discus, keep some of the offspring for myself, see how they turn out and what sort of direction I might be able to achieve with breeding. Which obviously means that most of the offspring need to go, even with strong culling. But go where? I'm not in this for the money, that's for sure, but I'd like to think that I have greater integrity than taking money from people who might as well just throw it away... and I like to think that I have a greater concern than that for living creatures I've nurtured.

Nonetheless, I also appreciate the other side of it, too, of pets as a business, and of the human foibles associated with it. Wholesaling out young fish anonymizes the whole thing wrt their end owners, makes it into a purely business relationship. I also suspect that selling fish in lots big enough to attract only serious customers may have a positive effect on the ultimate fate of the fish sold... dunno...

It's an interesting question, for sure, and the answers from the various contributors are every bit as interesting, too...

[LizStreithorst]

BTW, Keeping some wild Discus with an Arowana is not a problem as long as the tank is large enough for each to live in its own way. Arowanas do not live well together so there is only going to be one large one. It will live at the surface like Hatchetfish and mind it's own business while the wild Discus pursue their lives near the bottom. Wild Discus have instincts which are fine tuned enough to tell a real threat from just some other larger fish swimming by looking for something with less spines and a more streamlined shape.

I have combined these two fish(Full disclosure: I only have kept 22" Arowanas with adult S. haraldi and S. discus; never got around to trying any Greens.) many times in appropriately large tanks and the Discus did not live in fear. Arowanas only bother other Arowanas or fish small enough to swallow in one gulp.
Adult Tefe Discus just aren't on an Arowana's diet and know it.
This line of reasoning would have been better if the offensive fish were Green Terrors or even the much smaller Convict Cichlids. Even some of the Pike Cichlids may be kept with large wild Discus without any problems. I personally have only used dwarf pikes but most piscavores only bother what they can easily gulp. I wouldn't try combining wild Discus with any Piranha spp. Many are happy to just eat the fins and scales of larger fish.

My dream tank has rays on the bottom, Discus in the middle and an Arowana swimming on the top. What a sight that would be! It would take a 400 to 500 gallon tank. I can dream...

[LizStreithorst]

No.....It is not!!!:( It may be the same thing to a keeper of Fish. It is not the same thing to Discus Hobbyist.

Each species of fish should be kept in conditions that will allow it to thrive.. same goes for any animal......whats the point in keeping something as majestic as a discus if you do not keep it under conditions that allows it to thrive and reach its full potential.

I realize I am in the minority here by the comments which is fine...been there before and good at walking to my own beat.... but I am actually a bit surprised by some of the comments in this thread....and disappointed. This forum is supposed to be a place that promotes good information on Discus Husbandry, care and keeping.

Strong opinions in this thread so far... So heres mine.....We get upset when someone sells culls, but what I am hearing is we could care less if we sell fish to people that have given us every indication that they'll turn them into culls or worse????? :mad: Thats not the way the way to promote this hobby, IMO. If you do not care how this beautifiul fish is kept by someone you sell to...I don't see that as promoting the hobby of Discus keeping. Of course you can't control what will happen when someone buys your fish... I'm not talking about that...I am talking about selling to someone that has no intention of keeping them properly.

I don't look at it as being animals rights activist either. and really don't see it as being an issue here... ..I cull when needed I euthanize as needed...,....I don't have any illusions that these are anything other just fish.... I just don't find it ethical according to what I think is important in this hobby's future. This are just my opinions and everyone has one them I am sure.

I guess I am a little different here......I consider myself a hobbyist not a breeder. I keep and breed Discus because I greatly admire this flat fish...I own and run this forum to promote proper husbandry and care of this fish...so to me... selling a fish to someone who has indicated they will not treat that fish as it should be kept is just not an option.
I'm not in this to sell fish...I'm in this to promote the hobby...

So I stand by what I said...If someone comes here and wants to buy fish yet is not going to take care of them properly even after I have tried to educate them... They can go somewhere else....sale lost big deal...I'd rather have someone raise those fish correctly and do justice by them...I believe thats the best way to move the hobby forward...

This thread started off asking " Does it bother you to sell off your fry knowing the buyer won't provide proper care" ? Whether you sell them or not to that hobbyist... It should at least "bother" you if you know someone is not going care for them...

No more preaching here from me....

Regards all,
Al

Al,

You are in a different position than most all of us. You are the owner of this huge successful forum. You must have people beating down your door to buy fish.

Unlike you. I am a breeder first and a hobbyist second. I don't think I'd keep Discus at all if I couldn't breed. Ain't no one beatin' my door down to buy my fish. If I can breed a pair and keep a few that have the traits I want as potential breeders that is good enough for me. The rest can go to the wholesaler. That way I can re-coup some of my monetary losses.

You should not be so judgemntal. We all to the best we can with what we have.

[brewmaster15]

Liz,
I am the owner of this huge Successful forum.....but I don't have people beating down my door....sorry there...wish I did... But I don't.

I'm not importing...I'm a hobbyist that breeds fish because I am a hobbyist and love this hobby.


You should not be so judgemntal. That my friend is a double edged sword. ;)

Like I told John.. we'll have to agree to disagree.. I still feel that selling to someone that has given you every indication that they will not take care of these Discus is wrong ...To Me...its about ethics...and mine won't let me do it.. Now if someone is breeding or importing discus just to sell them, ... well then thats a different matter I guess..but thats not me.....
their goals are different than mine....
Best regards,
al



Al,

You are in a different position than most all of us. You are the owner of this huge successful forum. You must have people beating down your door to buy fish.

Unlike you. I am a breeder first and a hobbyist second. I don't think I'd keep Discus at all if I couldn't breed. Ain't no one beatin' my door down to buy my fish. If I can breed a pair and keep a few that have the traits I want as potential breeders that is good enough for me. The rest can go to the wholesaler. That way I can re-coup some of my monetary losses.

You should not be so judgemntal. We all to the best we can with what we have.

[LizStreithorst]

I never accused you of being in Discus for the money. Al. I know that you don't import. I admire you for what you have acheived with this forum. What I said is that you are in a different position than most of us.

If people aren't beating your door down, what do you do with the ones you can't sell?

Two more weeks...We'll have a decent chat face to face with cigars and several beers.


Liz,
I am the owner of this huge Successful forum.....but I don't have people beating down my door....sorry there...wish I did... But I don't.

I'm not importing...I'm a hobbyist that breeds fish because I am a hobbyist and love this hobby.

That my friend is a double edged sword. ;)

Like I told John.. we'll have to agree to disagree.. I still feel that selling to someone that has given you every indication that they will not take care of these Discus is wrong ...To Me...its about ethics...and mine won't let me do it.. Now if someone is breeding or importing discus just to sell them, ... well then thats a different matter I guess..but thats not me.....
their goals are different than mine....
Best regards,
al

[nc0gnet0]

I have climbed to the top of the hill to look my enemy in the eye and my enemy was PETA..........

Animals don't have rights, owners of animals have responsabilities.

Many people that consider themselves animal rights activists are not activists at all they are welfarist. Huge difference. One must not blur the lines here. To the activists, the end game is the abolishment of pet keeping of any kind, everyone will be vegan, etc etc. So many flaws with this argument. Hell, they even admit that entire species would cease to exist (domestic dogs for example).

Particularly loved the fact John N nailed that the humane society of USA is an activist orgaization.

Someone else mentioned that if we could give the fish the ability to commucicate, they would be telling us to let them the hell out of here. As long as we are going to give them that ability, why not give them the ability to comprehend there chances of survival in the wild due to predatation, lack of food, disease. i think it equates to less than 1/2 of one percent. After that you may find they may be giving you a big ol' fish hug with there tiny pectorals.

Culling is nothing but a necceary evil to make up for what we have removed from natures hand.

As for the original question of this thread, I can honestly say I see both sides of the argument. But, I must ask, would we have the qualtiy of the fish we know have if the breeders had to screen the potential customers, thus cutting into there already thin profit margin? And I see Al's point as well, the betterment of the hobby is better served in his way. But, is the hobby sustainable if this is to be the norm?

[yim11]

Culling is nothing but a necceary evil to make up for what we have removed from natures hand.

Very well said!


As for the original question of this thread, I can honestly say I see both sides of the argument. But, I must ask, would we have the quality of the fish we know have if the breeders had to screen the potential customers, thus cutting into there already thin profit margin? And I see Al's point as well, the betterment of the hobby is better served in his way. But, is the hobby sustainable if this is to be the norm?

The beauty of it is - no matter what, the market will always balance itself out. Even if every single breeder on this forum made a pact to only sell to competent buyers, there would still be just as many other breeders selling to anyone at all.

Then they end up here and buy from sponsors. :D

Thanks,
-jim

[brewmaster15]

Brew hits his head against the wall and throws his arms up in Frustration...:confused::confused::confused:

A guys come to your home...wants to buy your 1.5"-2'' discus to keep with his adult Red tail catfish.. He has told you this....its not a hunch or guess....You have 2 choices...sell them to that person knowing what will happen or not sell them.Its a simple Choice....what would you do?????? I would not sell them. Its not about competence on the part of the hobbyist....its that this buyer is a royal idiot ..and doesn't deserve to own my discus or anyones discus.

My point all along hasn't been about screening buyers its been about not reducing a discus to the level of a feeder fish or goldfish. Its been about making an ethical choice to not sell to someone that obviously won't treat the fish we all enjoy so much properly.

My surprise is at the fact that given how upset everyone gets when
a seller sells a cull or low grade fish...we could not find agreement on what constitutes a bad buyer as well.

Best wishes on everyones sales....
take care,
al

[LizStreithorst]

You're equivocating, Brew, and you did not address my question. What do you do with the fine fish that you have grown out that people are not beating down your doors to buy?

[brewmaster15]

You're equivocating, Brew, and you did not address my question. What do you do with the fine fish that you have grown out that people are not beating down your doors to buy?

Liz,
I limit myself to only breed a strain or two of Discus at a time and I don't usually sell these until they are 2.5-3" in size.... I usually don't have trouble selling homebred stock at that size..

Now answer my question Liz...:)

A guys come to your home...wants to buy your 1.5"-2'' discus to keep with his adult Red tail catfish.. He has told you this....its not a hunch or guess....You have 2 choices...sell them to that person knowing what will happen or not sell them.Its a simple Choice....what would you do??????

-al

[nc0gnet0]

Does the guy breed red tail catfish? :)

[LizStreithorst]

You see, you said that you have no problem selling juvies. Not all of us are that lucky.

No. I would not sell to a total idiot. I'd put the fish in the garden first. (Discus to Hybiscus. It has a nice ring to it). Dust to dust and all that...

So you have none that people don't buy? I envy you.




Liz,
I limit myself to only breed a strain or two of Discus at a time and I don't usually sell these until they are 2.5-3" in size.... I usually don't have trouble selling homebred stock at that size..

Now answer my question Liz...:)


-al

[brewmaster15]

You see, you said that you have no problem selling juvies. Not all of us are that lucky.

No. I would not sell to a total idiot. I'd put the fish in the garden first. (Discus to Hybiscus. It has a nice ring to it). Dust to dust and all that...

So you have none that people don't buy? I envy you.
Liz,
I focus on crosses...things that are not easy to find elsewhere...Find a niche fish to breed and You may have better luck.....but inall fairness..I don't use RO and my hatch rates are low, and I tend to keep far more than I should.


No. I would not sell to a total idiot. I'd put the fish in the garden first. (Discus to Hybiscus. It has a nice ring to it). Dust to dust and all that... and that has been my point all along. Some people just aren't meant for discus...
like this idiot...
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74894


-al

[nc0gnet0]

Man, that is awlful expensive fish food. Kind of wants to make you go out and catch a 50+ inch musky and put in that tank. As a discus hobbiest and lover I have to cringe at the tube video. But, when you step back and look at the bigger picture, is that any different than feeding a feeder goldfish to an oscar? While very graphic indeed, at least that discus served a better purpose than the thousands purchased and placed in overstocked, undermaintained tanks sentenced to a slow, diseased death.

Lets face it, I don't think you can idiot proof anything. If you turn away a customer, what to prevent him from walking down to th next breeder, lfs and purchasing a discus there? I think the breeders have a responsability to inform there customers how to properly care for thier fish so they can thrive. From that part on the onus is on the customer to follow said advise. One would hope that the cost of Discus is enough of a deterent to stear away the majority of the clueless customers.

[mmorris]

I'm comparatively new to selling fry, but I cull the ones I wouldn't want to buy and then keep the others until they sell. It usually takes no more than a few weeks, depending on strain and the number in the spawn. I have a lot of contacts in the fishkeeping community in the NE US. I insist that people must plan on having (or have) a minimum of six discus. If they want just two, say, for a 30 gallon I won't sell to them. That's only happened a couple of times, and one of the two ran out and bought a bigger tank. And then another. People can come back and lie, of course. "I got the 55 gallon like you told me." People seem to be receptive to what I recommend and keen to learn more. I'm sure I'll run into other inappropriate discus-keeping scenarios and if they don't want to rearrange the set-up, they can buy from someone else. They won't get mine.

[nc0gnet0]

I'm sure I'll run into other inappropriate discus-keeping scenarios and if they don't want to rearrange the set-up, they can buy from someone else. They won't get mine.

The irony of that scenario is that the less responsable breeder makes the sale, gets the small profit, and is allowed to continue his/her business, which, is more than likely, selling inferior fish and diluting the gene pool so to speak. Meanhile the breeder that refused the sale is taking loss's that may lead to his/her eventually getting out of the business. It is a bit of a catch 22, and arguments can be made on both sides which better serves the hobby as a whole.

While I understand Al's position, and would even follow it myself if I am ever succesfull in raising fry (as a hobbiest), one must understand that Al serves a niche market, and his practice may not be practical for someone rasing Discus on a larger scale.

[John_Nicholson]

Since this thread had already wandered all over the place here is a question....You have someone come to your place and say. I am really into large Amazon catfish. I hate feeding them feeder goldfish because I am afraid of introducing disease to my tank. The tank is kept at 83 degrees. The guy offers to buy your culls at $2.00 bucks each to feed his high dollar catfish. Now these are culls that you are going to kill anyway. Do you sale your culls to him to become feeder fish?

-john

[prolude006]

Hmmm tough question John, but if I think of it in another way..........I go to the Amazon and what are people doing?....eating discus!!!! What happens to fish in the wild, eaten by birds, snakes, people, other larger fish!!! I think we get really attached to what we raise and at times give pets/animals more of a conscience/human feelings than they really have. Nothing wrong with that or wanting the best for your fish/animals but we really take things too far in terms of humanizing animals. If a shark sees a human in the water do they stop to think "gee should I take a bite out of that human or will it hurt its feelings?" lol no way. Is a fish in a tank sitting there thinking "this tank is so small, and dirty, and I want to be in a big river or lake!" ahhhh definitely not, they are not thinking like we do. There is a joke that goes "try this test to see who your real friend is....lock your wife and your dog in the trunk of the car and when you open it see who is happy to see you!" The dog is happy because it doesnt know any better, neither do our fish.

My discus will chase each other and they will kill each other eventually if I dont seperate them, how do you feel about that, I hate it it makes me angry but the fish do it anyway.

Soooooo many arguments either way, we fear pain and death so we hate to see all these things happen to the things we love, we have been over sensitized to everything. (dont know if those are words or not. lol)

IMHO of course!! =)


I say sell your culls John for 2.00 bucks to feed the catfish. sorry to those that dissagree.

ps. Everytime I order from a simply member they do not ask me anything about how I will be keeping my discus, so when did everyone start asking the buyers what they are doing with the fish????? If they say, I am gonna use them as feeders then yeah dont sell your good fish, say hey I have a bunch of culls you want them for feeder fish?, just so you know they cost more then feeder goldfish at the pet store, see what they say!!!!

[Spardas]

To answer the OP:

Yes, it will bother the majority of people.

Now, that's only the first sentence of the whole answer. It will depend on case by case basis and can't be taken in a lump sum.

Bottom line is we are keeping discus for OUR OWN entertainment and selfishness. If we weren't even keeping them or if there is no interest or demand for them; then this question wouldn't even exist.

Now, the question is where do we draw the line? This is different for different people with different circumstances. This is due to the human condition.

Given that we accept the notion that we are selfish to start with because we are keeping these discus for our own entertainment or other selfish reasons (business, making a living, creating new strains, etc.); then it only boils down to which varying degree of selfishness and how much can be done to lessen the damage due to each and everyone of our own actions.

What one may perceive to be perfectly acceptable and the norm may not be the same for another. It may also be the fact that one may know that it is wrong but they still do it anyway because frankly, humans are creatures who act more on emotion than think with rationality and logic.

Now, the only way to make it the least painful for any of these fishes that we keep is to make sure we educate people since they're young to be moderate and consider all options and possibilities before acting. But since this isn't an option, then we try to educate people with the abundant of information available. However, we have to also accept the fact that there are people out there who will simply refuse to comprehend or understand certain information and prefer to do accordingly to what they perceive to be correct in their own little deluded mind.

But, I digress; the main point that I guess I want to say is that we just need to accept the first fact that we are responsible for the all the harm on discus no matter how big or small it is. It doesn't matter if we make it so that the living condition is "good" and we try to sell to the "good" people. It's already a fact that we have to accept that we are already responsible; buyer or seller.

Al,

I agree with your feelings but I'm a realist. This is the world were we have to accept certain facts of life and how people act.

If we are to promote discus to the general population; we're bound to run into a lot of these issues. What I think is most important is that we know how to moderate our actions. That is: do very little harm to the discus fish in the wild, use resources accordingly (recycle your water from water changes to water plants/lawn, use acrylic tanks to insulate heat better to cut back on electricity, and other), and to educate people in proper caring techniques. As long as we do this, then I see no problem with selling fry to a potentially horrible discus keeper.

Now, that is not to say that this is applicable to all items of trade. But as far as discus goes; then the seller should not really feel that he is at fault if he did disclose all the necessary information. It is still up to the seller to sell or not but if one is in business with discus, it's the bottom line that counts!

[Dutch dude]

Yes it bothers me to sell off fry to people who are not likely to take proper care.

I'm relatively new to discus and keep them for 2 years. I started off with 6 discus and ended up with 3 pairs. I decided to try and breed them. When the first pair succeed I did need to make room for growing up youngsters. I sold 2 of my pairs. I intended to give them a good home. The buyer of the first pair seem the be knowledge and already kept discus for over 1 year. I seen pics of his fish and they looked OK. I asked a lot abouth his plans and we had some long discusions abouth discus. It felt OK so I sold the fish to him. Four months later the pair "suddenly" died. So I asked what could be the reason and when he did the last water change. He never replied. Oooh I was so mad! I invested a lot of time and effort to give my fish a proper home and then this happened. So I took even more time for the second pair. I found an expirienced breeder who was for 7 years into breeding discus. I sold him the fish for 125, euro. Abouth 2 months ago I found them for sale on market place for 250,- euro!!! That was not my intention!!!

Now the fry,.....I liked the idea to raise some fry and learn and enjoy the entire process. I also planned on keeping the best fry for future breeders. I raised 3 spawns in a row. I felt it was no longer a hobby and it became a second job. I offered the fry for sale at a low price (2/3 of the cheapest on line shop). I did not want to end up with overcrowding grow out tanks and I want to sell of my fry for a fair price so they were also availeble for the les fortunate people. I gave a discount when people bought 6 or more to stimulate to keep them in groups. I asked all the costomers abouth their tanks and their expiriences with fish keeping. I weeded out the people who were not experienced and gave a lot of support to people who were new into discus but seem to be good motivated and expirienced in the hobby. I always recommend Simply and to read read read and read abouth discus. To be honnest I was woried a few times if the fish ended up in the right care. Some extra e-mails and some extra support defenately smothered things for the costomers. The costomers I was the most woried abouth took the best care and grown (becouse of the extra support?). Out of 3 batches only one fish died and I replaced that one for free and gave the customer 1 lbs of free beefheart to compensate.

Looking back at things it was A LOT of work. I only earned $225 for 5 months work. Some costomers were realy nice and some a pita. I learned a lot from raising and breeding discus. I hated the culling. Fry smaller as 1/2 inch seem to be easy but once they reach 1+ inch it becomes harder and harder to cull them. I don't like culling but it need to be done and it is part of the breeding process. I also had some wories abouth the future of some of the discus. I did all I could and the costomers appreciate that very much. Most of them were very surprised abouth all the info I gave and the e-mails to check if everything was ok. They told me they would never get the info and support in an lfs.

I put my pair in a communety tank becouse I don't want a second job. I plan on raising one or two batches a year just for fun and I will do it the same way Al and William Palumbo do. Just raising the very best out of the batch and grow them up to somewhat larger fish and sell them for lfs price. I will keep on asking abouth their expirience, their plans and the tanks.

[Apistomaster]

I already posted that I sell most of the domestic discus to a few shops who specialize in selling Discus so I don't have as much concern directly although I know the shops sell to anyone who is willing to buy their Discus. I often cull as many as a third of my fish by the time they have reached my minimum selling size which is 2-1/2 inches. This pretty much assure that my customers are getting Discus of good quality.
I only have wild or F1 wild fish presently but not everyone wants wild type Discus.

I don't have any domestics presently but since this thread has brought together so many hobbyist breeders I would really like to hear from anyone raising their own Red or Brilliant Turquoise Discus as I want to restart my production of one of these two strains but I want fish home bred in the USA. Please PM if you happen to be raising some because I am in the market to buy and I don't want to buy future breeding stock from anyone who imports and resells Discus. I would have posted in the hobbyists for sale/wanted to buy section but I think I am more likely to hear from hobbyist breeders from here than there at the present time.

I would buy from my friend, Dutchdude, in a New York minute but getting fish from Holland to Washington state would be prohibitively expensive. I lost my 2 reliable producing pairs of Red Turquoise Discus in a freak accident almost 3 years ago and my traditional regional fish shop customers keep asking me if I have any Discus for sale yet?
I have absolutely no interest in any imported domestic Discus as I have been. disappointed by every source I have bought any from. I want your good fish, not your culls. 2-1/2 inch fish would be fine.
It took me 16 imported Asian Red Turquoise to get one fertile pair which only raised one spawn. Then another 10 months to get 3 fertile pairs out of 8 fry I kept as future breeders.
So it took me 2 years and 24 discus to get 2 dependable pairs and I never want to repeat that experience. Hope you will all forgive me for broaching this subject in this thread but it seemed like too good of a chance to catch the attention of fellow hobbyist breeders and obtain born in the USA Discus actually bred and raised by their parents and not raised in dishes of egg yolk paste but underpaid foreign labor. I also am of the opinion that many Discus imported have been deliberately exposed to testosterone analogs to chemically castrate the majority of fish. How else to explain getting 6 spawning pairs from imported fish and only one pair which produced one fertile spawn then never any others yet got 3 fertile pairs out of only 8 of their progeny? That one of the three pairs was not a reliable pair is something I consider to be within the norms.
I am willing to do cash or trade deals. I have some pretty cool tank raised Plecos for sale.
During the summer it is feasible to mail Discus using express mail in insulated boxes.

[mmorris]

I have a turq pair that just ate their first batch. I don't know that I'd call them red turqs, or brilliant turqs - I just think of them as turqs. So, it's early days for my pair. Good luck! I'm sure you'll find some. I read the hobbyist section because I am always interested in what other domestic breeders are reporting.