Live breeding for food?

[srusso]

I was thinking about starting a 10 gallon live breeding tank. Mollies or guppies, etc... With some type of system to keep the babbies away from the parents... Blah blah blah, that's fine and all but the reason for the post is that I wanted to know if anyone has found that live breeders fry can make a good source for live food. If I got a feeding once a week or every other week for my discus that would be at very least, ideal.

[ExReefer]

I think they need to fed much more often than once per week to make an impact. Why not raise your own live blackworms? Much easier to keep a large population and the discus will thrive with these.

[John_Nicholson]

I use to keep guppy's in a couple of 120's with 2 to 3 inch growouts. In some cases the fry would be consumed within minutes of hitting the water, in others they would never get eaten at all.

-john

[srusso]

I think they need to fed much more often than once per week to make an impact. Why not raise your own live blackworms? Much easier to keep a large population and the discus will thrive with these.

Well I will be setting up a brine shrimp breeder and I have thought about red wigglers or blackworms, these will be additional sources of live food...

[John_Nicholson]

Red wigglers work great. I have not had them in years, but when I did the fish loved them.

-john

[srusso]

I use to keep guppy's in a couple of 120's with 2 to 3 inch growouts. In some cases the fry would be consumed within minutes of hitting the water, in others they would never get eaten at all.

-john

I'm ok with that, ones not eattin' can be added back to the live breeding tank.

Will the fry die the second they touch the discus water?

[JL15219]

Red wigglers work great. I have not had them in years, but when I did the fish loved them.

-john

How big do discus have to before you can feed red wigglers?

[John_Nicholson]

The fry will live fine in the discus water until they are eaten.

When raising red wigglers you will have worms from mature to really small. There will be some in the culture for almost any discus.

-john

[srusso]

The fry will live fine in the discus water until they are eaten.

When raising red wigglers you will have worms from mature to really small. There will be some in the culture for almost any discus.

-john

That answers the post, any good links to diy breeder tanks?

[John_Nicholson]

Lots of java moss and hiding places is the best that I can offer.

-john

[LizStreithorst]

I tried putting a pair of guppies in the Discus tank. I became overrun with guppies. The Discus never touched them.

Red wigglers are a different story. I keep 2 cultures going. As I go through one, I feed the little ones and dump larger breeders (they breeders have a prominent band around them) into the other culture. Since the worms don't appreciate being disturbed the 2nd culture gives them time to breed in peace.

BTW, the compost they produce is the best stuff for the garden since fish poo.

[Jhhnn]

I cultured whiteworms years ago, with some success. I think it takes some luck, just as with discus, the right setup, and some diligence. Discus loved 'em.

One of our contributors, White Worm, often has cultures available.

http://www.webjam.com/discusdomain

Haven't dealt with him, myself.

I also cultured wingless fruit flies, which my discus never really cared for, but the Giant Danios I had at the time were absolutely nuts for 'em...

[mmorris]

I tried raising guppies but the discus wouldn't touch them. They were adult discus; perhaps juvies would. I raise white worms and red wrigglers and the discus seem to love the white worms most.

[srusso]

I tried raising guppies but the discus wouldn't touch them. They were adult discus; perhaps juvies would. I raise white worms and red wrigglers and the discus seem to love the white worms most.

How are the white worms kept? Where do I order from? Could you mail me a smaller starter colony? :D :D :D

[Pardal]

I used to feed guppies to my Angels, many years ago.
I won't risk with discus if you want the parents to raise the fry. just they develop a taste . for it. and will never stop. in the other hand the angels spawn really quick with the fresh protein. and I always raise the angel artificial.

[mmorris]

How are the white worms kept? Where do I order from? Could you mail me a smaller starter colony? :D :D :D

You're not so far. Next time I see you...:D

[srusso]

You're not so far. Next time I see you...:D

Ha Very cute, not sure my wife would like that joke. :D ;)
I googled white worms and all I come up with is parasite info... Are there any other names?

[Apistomaster]

One of the 66,000 hits on Google for, "Raising White worms"
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Heller_White_Worms.html

The trickiest part about raising white worms is providing a cool place for your cultures.
They should be kept between 60 and 65*F.
For the smaller but more heat tolerant Grindal Worms you can get by if the temps are 65 to 75*F but it takes more of them but they are perfect for smaller sized discus. I'll let you "Google" this one.

[srusso]

One of the 66,000 hits on Google for, "Raising White worms"
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Heller_White_Worms.html

The trickiest part about raising white worms is providing a cool place for your cultures.
They should be kept between 60 and 65*F.
For the smaller but more heat tolerant Grindal Worms you can get by if the temps are 65 to 75*F but it takes more of them but they are perfect for smaller sized discus. I'll let you "Google" this one.

In another post you mentioned that you had a black worms colonized in your tank, can you please explain this?

[Apistomaster]

If you keep Discus in a tank with a substrate and feed them black worms some always escape into the substrate. I recommend deliberately dumping enough worms in one spot then regularly place pellet or stick fish foods to promote a thriving colony. If your main purpose is merely to add complexity to your planted tanks ecosystem this works well. In between supplemental feedings the worm will also help process bits of food the fish miss which happen to settle into the substrate. Black worm colonies persist in a my pleco breeding tanks as the species I raise. I have to feed them the worms placed in bowls. They are unable to extract them from the sand. In my wild Discus tanks I use very fine sand and the Discus do manage to sift and puff the fine sand well enough to eat some of the worms but never enough to eliminate them once established. I consider it to be a small way to allow wild Discus to find live food acting as they do in the wild. The sand must be very fine. Coarser material is impossible for Discus to sift or puff out bits of food like they do in nature. I don't think you are keeping any wild Discus anyway but even domestics retain these instinctive behaviors if given a suitable substrate.
That is how they establish a colony, Unfortunately, these worms become mostly inaccessible to Discus. The few worms they find are merely treats. Even a school of Corydoras will be unable to eliminate them. However, when you vacuum the debris from your substrate into a bucket and allow it to sit for an hour these worms will clump into balls which you can feed to your Discus(again) and even vacuuming the substrate enough black worms will remain to continue the culture.
While I have yet to attempt the deliberate culturing of black worms as a steady source of live food it is possible but I don't recall exactly how others do this. You can find that information if you Google, Culturing Black worms. I do know that those who do so allow sufficient room and a recirculation water system which allows you to culture them at room temperatures. Normally we refrigerate our black worm purchases to extend their lives in a relatively small amount of water. I know it is not too difficult to culture enough for feeding all your Killiefish breeding stock or some Apistogramma breeders but I don't know if these methods are productive enough to feed much to many large Discus.
i suppose it's possible to scale up your culturing system but that will necessarily require a fair amount of space and it may be more efficient to culture white worms and/or red wrigglers. here i live it gets to hot to easily culture white worms because it is hard to find any place in the 60's*F range when it never drops below 105*F for up to a month and many days reach 118*F. Using an old refrigerator would be the only way i could culture enough white worms for all my adult Discus. White worms are a very rich food source compared to black worms so you don't need nearly as large of quantities.
There are many other live foods you can consider. From Spring through early fall you can grow Mosquito larvae and live Blood worms. The water only needs to be stagnant and the insects will start laying eggs without any effort on your part. Long after the Mosquitoes are gone there will be blood worms present in the bottom muck which may be harvested.
It helps to run an air stone in your culture vessels to keep the water from smelling. I use 6 feet wide plastic wading pools.
I periodically add some powdered milk and peelings from a couple potatoes to sustain the microrganisms these aquatic insect larvae require for food. Live mosquito larvae are one of the very best of all the live food you may culture. They are seasonal in the north but people in the south can keep them going the year around. I leave it to you to deal with the ethical issues involved with promoting mosquito breeding. I am lucky to have neighbors who tolerate my mosquito cultures.

[srusso]

Thank you, that was very informative! Not sure what I am going to do... so many things my wife will hate, so little time. :D

[fishorama]

I keep my white worms from Martha in the 60+F basement. I think they'd be better if I fed them more often, I only remember them when I do laundry ~once a week. But they seem to be ok if not multiplying as much as they might. I only feed them to fish as a treat but I recently started another culture.

[Apistomaster]

I find white worm cultures that are thriving need to be fed about every other day,
It seems to be better to feed just what they can eat in a couple days otherwise any excess food tend to begin to spoil and can foul the soil and reduce the culture's productivity.
So do try feeding less ever 2nd or 3rd day. Like aquarium keeping, culturing worms is a mixture of both art and science. A very healthy culture can produce an impressive quantity of worms. Culture rise, reach peak production then decline so it is best to maintain 2 or 3 at different stages so you can rotate the cultures through their cycles so 2 out of 3 are producing rather well at any given time. This many cultures can easily feed about a dozen adult Discus as part of their overall diet.

I use home made plywood boxes 10 X 16 to 12 X 18 inches by 4 inches deep. I use one sheet of glass cover about 2/3 the area in direct contact with the soil surface and another tight fitting piece to which I epoxy a knob at the center to go directly over the underlying glass. This encourages the worms to collect near the surface under the first glass and the second glass controls moisture content.
I use the smaller sized box mainly for Grindal worm cultures.
I use peat moss mixed with some sand to help make the soil less likely to compact with some fine grained dolomite to help maintain a less acid soil pH. I keep up the humidy of the soil by spraying water from a spray bottle. Moisture content ideal range is narrow so misting allows finer control of the moisture content.
Like fish, it usually takes some trial and error attempts until you find what works best for you.
Do read many of the articles on the internet to get a better overview of what works well for most people and the exact proportions of the culture soil constituents.

There are many who use foam sheets instead of soil, especially for Grindal worm culture and this can be a very efficient and clean way to culture the worms, I haven't had much luck with the so-called soiless culture techniques but many other do well using this alternative method.