Whey Protein?

[DiscusKeeper403]

Lol this might be a crazy question, but do you think you could put protein powder into your Discus mix? I wonder if it would hurt, or benefit the fish at all..

[dark_spell]

lol! i use tons of this guys..on myself though! it'll be interesting if people said yes here! :p

[Arjunpun]

Yes I also use syntax nector whey protien 0 fat 0 Carb. I was thinking same of using it on my mix. But I think it won't work. Let the expert member answer it.

[LizStreithorst]

There was a thread about this many many years ago. I'm too lazy to go look for it. IMO the only draw back is that the whey will foul the water. Other that that it would seem to be a good addition to a beefheart mix.

[Eddie]

There was a thread about this many many years ago. I'm too lazy to go look for it. IMO the only draw back is that the whey will foul the water. Other that that it would seem to be a good addition to a beefheart mix.


Ditto, been brought up, its not advantages at all. Aside from it making a mess, I believe that fish do not absorb/utilize whey protein the same way we do. Besides, what would you be trying to achieve in using it? Faster growth or larger growth, KISS. The basics are sufficient.

Eddie

[dark_spell]

we want an Arnold discus! :p

[Eddie]

we want an Arnold discus! :p

Vera already has an Arnold Discus, see post #48. Doesn't get much more Arnold! HUGE

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67702&page=4

[dark_spell]

HOLY discus! that's one big fish! lol I hope he doesn't eat that ram! :p

[Eddie]

HOLY discus! that's one big fish! lol I hope he doesn't eat that ram! :p


Or that other discus! LOL

[DiscusKeeper403]

Thanks for the replies. Only curious to see what other people had to say on the matter. Yes Eddie, I thought maybe the added protein may help in growth.

[DerekFF]

Vera already has an Arnold Discus, see post #48. Doesn't get much more Arnold! HUGE

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67702&page=4

HUGE HUGE FISH! ZOMG!

[stanlee]

i have a friend who mixes ïmmunocal" into his fish food, swears by it as he says his fishes grow (his altums are 18inches tip to tip as a e.g.) like there is no tomorrow.

beef heart also is not found in the amazon but we use it as a staple for our discus.:D
so try whey protein if you like . Certainly won't kill ur discus that's for sure.:)

[DiscusKeeper403]

i have a friend who mixes ïmmunocal" into his fish food, swears by it as he says his fishes grow (his altums are 18inches tip to tip as a e.g.) like there is no tomorrow.

beef heart also is not found in the amazon but we use it as a staple for our discus.:D
so try whey protein if you like . Certainly won't kill ur discus that's for sure.:)

Interesting.. Maybe I'll do some more research and consider it for my next batch of mix.

[Ed13]

What makes Whey protein( concentrates or isolates, etc) so GOOD for human consumption is the amino acid profile and how easy and how fast is absorbed by the body. MY guess is that it's solubility might mean that it'll make a mess of water quality and that it'll be kinda hard to get it to the fish themselves in a regular frozen mix.

Of course, finding pure whey in a powder form (guessing you'll try concentrates first) without sugars, colorants and flavors added is gonna be tough, especially not by the pallet.

[DiscusKeeper403]

What makes Whey protein( concentrates or isolates, etc) so GOOD for human consumption is the amino acid profile and how easy and how fast is absorbed by the body. MY guess is that it's solubility might mean that it'll make a mess of water quality and that it'll be kinda hard to get it to the fish themselves in a regular frozen mix.

Of course, finding pure whey in a powder form (guessing you'll try concentrates first) without sugars, colorants and flavors added is gonna be tough, especially not by the pallet.

That's a good point, I guess I didn't take into account how hard it might be to find pure whey.

Do you think that the fish could absorb and use this the same way humans do?

[Ed13]

It'll take tests and feeding trials to know for sure, and that is way out of my league:)

Now, my edgemacated guess (not even that really:p), is that that once broken down, the amino acids(which is the important part here), can be absorbed and put to use by the fish. Probably not in the same way as humans, wouldn't know really:confused: and if it's the same I wouldn't know if it's a desirable way for aquaculture. :confused:

The question is, which branch chain amino acids are needed and usefull for discus and at what quantities and what minerals and vitamins play a supporting role.

Totally my guess here but, it may be that whey may prove usefull in dry feeds like flakes or pellets but not so good on frozen mixes. Maybe adding gelatin would be good if added on a mix:confused:

I see no shame on trying something new;)

BTW, are discus lactose intolerant?:p

[Eddie]

BTW, are discus lactose intolerant?:p


LOL, hey...maybe a little lactaid. :D

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Whey protein = bad
Caesin protein = good

;)

-Ryan

[Ed13]

Whey protein = bad
Caesin protein = good

;)

-Ryan
I see you know your absorbtion rates for them:p I knew you were gonna mention Casein! The slower absorption of Casein will def be better for aquaculture purposes. Slow and steady wins the race!!!

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I see you know your absorbtion rates for them:p I knew you were gonna mention Casein! The slower absorption of Casein will def be better for aquaculture purposes. Slow and steady wins the race!!!

It's not necessarily the absorption rates that makes Caesin ideal for a "protein" supplement in fish, but rather it is the right form/type of amino acids. Caesin has been proven in past discus nutritional studies to be ideal. It can be absorbed and used better than beef heart! Only problem is discus will not take Caesin protein by itself, it has to be used as a supplement in a diet mix.

Even then, a 45-50% protein level in their diet is more than sufficient. Anything above and beyond that level does several things. #1: fish can only use so much, so whatever isnt used gets excreted directly back into the system as ammonia. #2: Since they can only use so much, the excess ammonia that is produced gets put into the tank and adds an additional load to the filtration system.#3: All of the excessive processing puts strain on the kidneys, which over time will cause permanent damage (same for us).

Stick with a commercial diet in the 45-50% protein range. You may think you're getting better growth with a higher protein level, but it's only because you're doing additional water changes to keep the tank clean...this creates a clean/stable environment for optimal development. Try doing the same volume of water changes using a normal protein level food and see what happens. You'd be surprised at how much influence water quality plays on fish growth/health.

-Ryan

[Ed13]

It's not necessarily the absorption rates that makes Caesin ideal for a "protein" supplement in fish, but rather it is the right form/type of amino acids. Caesin has been proven in past discus nutritional studies to be ideal. It can be absorbed and used better than beef heart! Only problem is discus will not take Caesin protein by itself, it has to be used as a supplement in a diet mix.

Even then, a 45-50% protein level in their diet is more than sufficient. Anything above and beyond that level does several things. #1: fish can only use so much, so whatever isnt used gets excreted directly back into the system as ammonia. #2: Since they can only use so much, the excess ammonia that is produced gets put into the tank and adds an additional load to the filtration system.#3: All of the excessive processing puts strain on the kidneys, which over time will cause permanent damage (same for us).

Stick with a commercial diet in the 45-50% protein range. You may think you're getting better growth with a higher protein level, but it's only because you're doing additional water changes to keep the tank clean...this creates a clean/stable environment for optimal development. Try doing the same volume of water changes using a normal protein level food and see what happens. You'd be surprised at how much influence water quality plays on fish growth/health.

-Ryan
Good stuff Ryan!

I would've thought that the increased length of time of amino acids in the blood stream before protein synthesis and the next meal provided by casein was the deciding factor and not that the profile was a better match.
Are the BCAAs really important to discus? Leucine?
I'm guessing this was part of what you were working on in the HCC.

So going to ask you more questions in the near future regarding feeds and other subjects;):D

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Fred Goodall on www.DPH.nl (http://www.DPH.nl) posted a few excellent nutrition articles several years ago using various forms of protein. Seach for those and you'll have some better insight.

-Ryan