I lost another one!!

[Discus master]

I copied this message over from the dark_spell thread and re-posted it here as I suppose at this point it should have its own thread, it just that his symptoms were so close to my own situation, could you please review this and tell me what you think I should do??

ok so one drop per gallon it is then ok, and I will probably buy new. I just lost another fish! so I got two remaining out of the three I lost in a 4 day period. I did not QT the last one I bought and he was sick from the begining I think and whatever he had spread to my other and now I only have two left!

and they are dying after having them for over 2 months, I know thats not long time, but I know its nothing I did in terms of their water witch is perfect it had to be this last fish that I skiped out on the q with and now I learned the hard way either buy them all up front or qt each new arival man I learned the hard way the first one to go was the last one I bought and I think there my have been an issue with him to begin ith I am not sure what but it is a really quick killer I know that any thoughts on what kills them so quickly brought on by adding a new fish to the bunch without proper qt? I know from now on I will qt or buy all at once if I loose the last two.

I will be suing the quick cure at full strength in the entire tank the only problem is I have two angel boita loaches and one small sucker and a small cory cat as clean up crew, so I am not sure how to treat if full strength is not good for them but are ok for the discus. my hosp tank is not set up now and I wanted to treat the whole tank should I do half strength or 3/4 strength?

and for how long with QC I know thats what the problem is the symtoms are so similar to this case, looks like skin peelin in the rite light and when viewd at an angle, not eating, going dark, clamping fins

I need this qc to work quickly!! I hope I am not to late!

[Eddie]

Can you move the discus to a bare tank on their own? Using the half dose would be fine for the clean up crew but the discus will respond better to full strength. You need to keep the temp down to about 82F, have adequate air in the tank and keep the lights out.

Eddie

[Discus master]

Relly ok yeah I can move my crew temporairly to my 29 gallon for now. I m suprised about turning the temp down usualy its up, and why turn out the lights is it because the discus are sensitive to the lights when being medicated? or because the medication is more efective in the dark good to know about the strenghts by the way I was worried about that.

[nc0gnet0]

This almost sounds bacterial to me, or a water quality issue, pictures would be nice. It really is hard to say at this point.......

Leaving the lights out reduces the stress on the fish, and light will degrade the malachite green making it less effective over time. The sluffing off of the slime coat/skin pealing without signs of flashing sounds like it may be water quality. Pictures would be nice.

[Discus master]

Well and the thing is I have not actually seen the skin/slime actually come off it is just what it apears to be, I am not home rite now to take pics I am at work but I will try and my pics always turn out bad well not the greatest but I will give it a shot. I am not using any carbon so that will not be an issue

I did a small 25% water change last night and check my water parameters before and after ll the same

Amonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates ?
ph 7.0
temp 83.5f
oh and I even did a hardness test, it took 5 drops to turn the liquid solution from red to green or it may have been the other way around I forget but definately a gh of 5

[nc0gnet0]

What do you have in the tank as far as decorations, fake plants, substrate etc etc? Are there any signs of flashing? Labored breathing or breathing from one gill?

I dunno, I might be more inclined to treat with furan-2 before QC, but I will defer to Eddy............

[Discus master]

Iam not sure what flashing is? they seem to be just lythargis chilling out in one spot, breathing from both gills as far as I can tell it may seem to be a bit labored, looks like when you view from an angle looks like skin would have have peeled off in some spots especially the flanks of the fish of and fins are clamping? does this help? there was another member who thread read I think it ICH or somthing like that rite near my thread and I think it was at Eddies sugestion to use the QC so we will see I guess wish me luck I can not loose any more fish! I am already down three ever sense I intrduced a sick fish I did not know he was sick but it was clear after a couple of days and he never ate either than my fish one by one I should have QT I will from now on you better believe it.

[ifixoldhouses]

Flashing is when they dart at an object to scratch their gills.

[Eddie]

Generally skin turbidity is related to external irritant, parasite/protozoa of some sort. IME, if it comes fast, it is probably not bacteria alone. Bacterial infections tend to come secondary to parasite infections. If you treat with antibiotics first, you do not rid or weaken the root problem and fish cannot recover. Eliminate or lessen the parasite issue, then treat the bacteria infection. One way of knocking both back is to treat with a high salt concentration combined with antibiotics but I it may take longer.

Eddie

[Discus master]

Well I started my QC treatment last night, turns out my wife had roke down my 14 gallon to "clean" it for me lol because it was empty little did she know I had dechlorinated water in it clean and aging with a heater in it and HOB, I said thats ok but ask b4 u do that next time, I did not want to hurt her feelings any way by the time I get tht set back up it wasnt ready for discus or my clean up crew, so I treated everyone in the main tank at the same time, instead of 55 drops for my 55 gallon I did 35 drops I hope my loaches can handle it while at the same time I hope its enough for my discus I am suppose to repete the treatment this evening for another day.

Then what comes next is at your sugestion for me? what should I do from here or what would you do I should say?

what to use if anything at this point for how long and how much? any water changes yet?

oh and can I seed a HOB filter with a few of those ceramic rings I have in my canister filter thats running on my main tank? you think that be ok?

[Discus master]

oh dn Eddie one more question, should I add salt aqurium slt of course if so how much and for how long I do not want to leave it in my tank? we did not even discus for me to add salt should I at this point sense I used the QC??

oh and the lights are off rite now should I skip the feeding of them for now?

I read on the fish lore forum were I started out at and read numurous times that discus do not like salt at all and they do not tolerate it very well is this true? I mean I am not opse to using it if it would help me out in treatment but I have read befroe when I first got started not to use it any thoughts on that in additon to all my other questions of course? lolo :confused::confused:

[nc0gnet0]

I would not use salt together with quick cure, both formalin and salt can lead to lower 02 concentrations. If you choose to go this route, make sure you have plenty of air added.

You never answered the question about decorations etc.......Want to make sure there is nothing in the tank leaching toxins into the water.

[Foxfire]

oh dn Eddie one more question, should I add salt aqurium slt of course if so how much and for how long I do not want to leave it in my tank? we did not even discus for me to add salt should I at this point sense I used the QC??

oh and the lights are off rite now should I skip the feeding of them for now?

I read on the fish lore forum were I started out at and read numurous times that discus do not like salt at all and they do not tolerate it very well is this true? I mean I am not opse to using it if it would help me out in treatment but I have read befroe when I first got started not to use it any thoughts on that in additon to all my other questions of course? lolo :confused::confused:

Discus not like salt? That is complete non-sense! Discus do great in salt and it should always be tried as a first treatment. Also, raise the temp, too. Try 1 tsp salt/gal and raise temp to 90/92 F. As for duration - use for a week or two depending on illness and results. This level of salt will never hurt the discus but for higher levels, consider a dip (see sticky.)

Note: other types of fish may not do well under these temps so remove them. They should go into a Q tank until you are sure they are not carrying an illness before you put them back.

Also, if you have only a few sick discus fish, consider another tank but all discus are helped by salt and higher temps and might have the same illness but not showing yet, so adding salt for all is a good idea. If you want to add meds to just one fih, use another tank but again, consider salt/higher temp for the other discus to prevent illness.

Always add an air stone for higher temps (and always when using med!) To clear out old meds, use carbon. Salt will not harm your cycling bacteria and higher temps will promote its growth.

As for seeding a filter it takes 1 - 3 weeks for the filter to mature; if you need faster results, you need to transfer a lot of seed material to the new filter (if it is in a new tank.)

[Discus master]

Well I am talking about my 14 gallon as a qt tank for new arivals for the proper qt like I shuld have been doing I am no sure how long you need to qt them for before you can feel comfortable adding them to the main tank, 2 - 3 weeks?

and I have tons of bio material in my canister filter on my 55 gallon discus tank I was thinking of taking some of that and adding it to a HOB filter which is whats running on the 14 gallon would this be fesible?

and for salt if I have to treat them all together because of limited tank issue then one tea spoon you meant rite per gallon not one table spoon per gallon?

and my heater is a 200 watt max temp I can get out of it is 86 - 87f I always run an air stone and I do have an extra 12 inch airstone but need a larger pump to drive it properly so I hope I have enough airation rite now it one of those ones with the low light led on it and the bubbels come up from around it and there is a valve at the top for controlling the amount of bubels its at max rite now and seems to be pouring in the air plus I use a spray bar I hope thats enough air? plus I have the aqurium light off.

on the 14 gallon it a small 50 watt heater that gets to 85f and holds it there nicely and I am using an HOB for that tank but its not cyled I do not wan to use the water from the 55 gallon to fill it because of the sick fish and treatment but I have a 29 gallon thats been running for a very long time with two HOB's on it could I use that water to fill it up I know the fish in there are fine?

and you say if i put carbon in the canister fitler it will get rid of the salt? or will this just be removed eventually with water changes? I do not want to leave the salt in forever?

sorry for so many questions but I want to do things rite if I can Iam a newbie and my wife is buying me a discus today to put into the qt tank thats why I have to treat the others in the main tank as is.

[Eddie]

Dont raise the temp, you'll kill the fish if there is formalin in the water.

I would not add salt during QC treatment, no need.

Eddie

[Foxfire]

"and I have tons of bio material in my canister filter on my 55 gallon discus tank I was thinking of taking some of that and adding it to a HOB filter which is whats running on the 14 gallon would this be fesible?

and for salt if I have to treat them all together because of limited tank issue then one tea spoon you meant rite per gallon not one table spoon per gallon?

and my heater is a 200 watt max temp I can get out of it is 86 - 87f "


Sorry about the tsp - that is standard; yes, it means teaspoon NOT tablespoon. As for temp, 87 will not do - you really need 90/91 so add another heater - fish immue systems do far better at higher temps (and many types of bacteria that attack fish do poorly at these temps) but discus tolerate it better than most other fresh trop fish. By the way, for my sick discus I use a rounded tsp of salt but if unsure, level it flat before adding. Always use kosher or aquarium salt - yes, there are cheaper (and safe) salts at regular stores but some have agents that could hurt fish (anti-caking) so just spend for the good stuff.

Transfer as much bio media as possible but don't crash your main tank. That is all you should need for a 14 gal (remember, the tank walls have not cycled and for most aquariums, that is a big part oif the cycling system so you are depending on the filter alone - test for ammonia/nitrite every day.)

If doing water changes, measure lost and add back that amount of salt.

Higher temps help good bacteria to grow but you get lower O2 levels so add as much O2 as possible - a HOB does a good job for this.

[Foxfire]

"and you say if i put carbon in the canister fitler it will get rid of the salt? or will this just be removed eventually with water changes? I do not want to leave the salt in forever?"

Salt will NEVER be removed by carbon or hurt the carbon (or filter bacteria)so that is a nonissue. To get rid of salt, simply use water changes but do the salt removal over a few days. For adding salt, just spoon out all you need - there is no shock issue with salt but don't put the raw salt on/hit a fish!

Your bubbler and spray bar should be enough O2 but get the tank temp up to 90 (even for the healthy fish - again, they have been exposed and are alright now but later they may get ill - ditto on the salt.) Get another 200 watt heater - good back up and really, if you own discus high temps are a fact of life over time.

remember, always try salt first and for new discus, salt is a great way to de-stress them, help heal damaged fins/scales/prevent fungus and perk them up.

Q-tank: not really sure how long but people here say 2/3 weeks but use your judgement.

You said you had loaches - not sure 90 is good for them or that salt level - might want to x-fer to another tank.

[Discus master]

ok then no salt when using QC temp is at 85f rite now
what about propr qt time and seeding the filter and using the water from an established 30 gallon?

[Discus master]

"and I have tons of bio material in my canister filter on my 55 gallon discus tank I was thinking of taking some of that and adding it to a HOB filter which is whats running on the 14 gallon would this be fesible?

and for salt if I have to treat them all together because of limited tank issue then one tea spoon you meant rite per gallon not one table spoon per gallon?

and my heater is a 200 watt max temp I can get out of it is 86 - 87f "


Sorry about the tsp - that is standard; yes, it means teaspoon NOT tablespoon. As for temp, 87 will not do - you really need 90/91 so add another heater - fish immue systems do far better at higher temps (and many types of bacteria that attack fish do poorly at these temps) but discus tolerate it better than most other fresh trop fish. By the way, for my sick discus I use a rounded tsp of salt but if unsure, level it flat before adding. Always use kosher or aquarium salt - yes, there are cheaper (and safe) salts at regular stores but some have agents that could hurt fish (anti-caking) so just spend for the good stuff.

Transfer as much bio media as possible but don't crash your main tank. That is all you should need for a 14 gal (remember, the tank walls have not cycled and for most aquariums, that is a big part oif the cycling system so you are depending on the filter alone - test for ammonia/nitrite every day.)

If doing water changes, measure lost and add back that amount of salt.

Higher temps help good bacteria to grow but you get lower O2 levels so add as much O2 as possible - a HOB does a good job for this.

Ok I thing I got it now thank you one tea spoon I thought thats what you mean as one table spoon would have looked like this tbs not tsp but I wanted to be sure thanks for the help!

[Foxfire]

I am not clear on why you are using formalin? A shotgun approch? If you do not know why they are ill, never use a blind attack - that will do more harm than good. I may have missed a good reason for this treatment but if you are just med for med sakes, then STOP IT.

You can not go wrong with salt/higher temp. Yes, it may not cure and you should then try other meds (but only if you can relate symptoms to the required med.) But a salt treatment will never harm them and in most cases, helps in other ways (again, can use salt as a tonic, esp. for stressed fish. High temps only if ill.)

Yes, do not mix meds and salt unless you know that they are safe together.

[Eddie]

ok then no salt when using QC temp is at 85f rite now
what about propr qt time and seeding the filter and using the water from an established 30 gallon?


Don't even worry about seeding filters from another tank. Cycle the filters with the fish, I've done this for years. As long as you stay on top of water changes, it will be fine. A 14 gallon is small, go with a 20-29 gallon instead.

QT time, 4 weeks alone and then 2 weeks with a test fish to see if something arises.

Eddie

[Discus master]

Don't even worry about seeding filters from another tank. Cycle the filters with the fish, I've done this for years. As long as you stay on top of water changes, it will be fine. A 14 gallon is small, go with a 20-29 gallon instead.

QT time, 4 weeks alone and then 2 weeks with a test fish to see if something arises.

Eddie

I got you! how many water chages should I do and how often if say its a young discus?
and the 14 gallon is all I got left rite now and I am only going to be adding one at a time for now as my wife is not happy with my recent looses if you know what i mean? so its either qt in the 14 gallon or no qt at all, and thats not an option but when I can affoed a bigger qt I will thanks for helping me out keep the advice comming.

[Foxfire]

ok then no salt when using QC temp is at 85f rite now
what about propr qt time and seeding the filter and using the water from an established 30 gallon?

This post confuses me and I may have missed important information. Why not use salt in a q-tank? Surely you are not med new (non-sick) fish!? I feel that all new discus should have salt treatment to start. This will prevent fungus from being netted and lower stress.

Water from another tank is of near zero value compared to seed media from a filter. Also, sand from the bottom of an established tank is useful (this is a clean tank with no strange fish? Don't cross mix unless your back is to the wall. Other fish may carry bad bacteria that they can handle but new fish might not handle. Again, judgement call - I've done this but like all advice, all courses may prove wrong. I'd say take advice with a grain of salt but that would be pushing good taste ... .

[Discus master]

I am not clear on why you are using formalin? A shotgun approch? If you do not know why they are ill, never use a blind attack - that will do more harm than good. I may have missed a good reason for this treatment but if you are just med for med sakes, then STOP IT.

You can not go wrong with salt/higher temp. Yes, it may not cure and you should then try other meds (but only if you can relate symptoms to the required med.) But a salt treatment will never harm them and in most cases, helps in other ways (again, can use salt as a tonic, esp. for stressed fish. High temps only if ill.)

Yes, do not mix meds and salt unless you know that they are safe together.
Well the QC has melchite green or whatever and formilin and I did esearch it read a book I just got looked over the sickness section asked questions on SD and the fish lore where I am also a memebr and based on the symtoms this was the best apporach, I dont think salt and heat alone would have done the job on this one thanks though.

[Eddie]

I got you! how many water chages should I do and how often if say its a young discus?
and the 14 gallon is all I got left rite now and I am only going to be adding one at a time for now as my wife is not happy with my recent looses if you know what i mean? so its either qt in the 14 gallon or no qt at all, and thats not an option but when I can affoed a bigger qt I will thanks for helping me out keep the advice comming.


To be honest, save your money, have your wife save also and get some quality fish from a sponsor. You will have SO much less heart/head ache. A 14 gallon is way too small unless the fish is <2 inches and this is not a size I advise to get one at a time. :o

[Foxfire]

I got you! how many water chages should I do and how often if say its a young discus?
and the 14 gallon is all I got left rite now and I am only going to be adding one at a time for now as my wife is not happy with my recent looses if you know what i mean? so its either qt in the 14 gallon or no qt at all, and thats not an option but when I can affoed a bigger qt I will thanks for helping me out keep the advice comming.

14 gal tank is fine for young discus as a temporary Q-tank! but the bio-load is huge for such a small tank - check for ammonia/nitrites every day and use WC as needed. FYI: remember, a 50% WC will only remove 50% of an ammonia reading (ie a 2 ppm ammonia reading only falls to 1 ppm - not good. a second 50% will only reduce to 0.5 ppm. What you needed was two 75% or a single 90% WC. Then the ammonia will be reduced to under 0.1 ppm)

[dalejordan]

I sent a pm....did you get it ???

[Foxfire]

Well the QC has melchite green or whatever and formilin and I did esearch it read a book I just got looked over the sickness section asked questions on SD and the fish lore where I am also a memebr and based on the symtoms this was the best apporach, I dont think salt and heat alone would have done the job on this one thanks though.

I would like to know the exact illness the forum and your reserach confirmed was the cause and how these meds solve the problem. This would be useful for me as well.

As the one poster said - buy from a sponsor the discus will be better. A local fish store often has mixed parents and can be ill. Cost may be an issue but I buy from breeders (young) and I am very pleased by the fish - they are beauties and growing like no tomorrow but they are in a overstocked 75 gal and feed six times a day.

[Foxfire]

Don't even worry about seeding filters from another tank. Cycle the filters with the fish, I've done this for years. As long as you stay on top of water changes, it will be fine. A 14 gallon is small, go with a 20-29 gallon instead.

QT time, 4 weeks alone and then 2 weeks with a test fish to see if something arises.

Eddie

Great post - I was wondering about that too! Thanks.

[Discus master]

This post confuses me and I may have missed important information. Why not use salt in a q-tank? Surely you are not med new (non-sick) fish!? I feel that all new discus should have salt treatment to start. This will prevent fungus from being netted and lower stress.

Water from another tank is of near zero value compared to seed media from a filter. Also, sand from the bottom of an established tank is useful (this is a clean tank with no strange fish? Don't cross mix unless your back is to the wall. Other fish may carry bad bacteria that they can handle but new fish might not handle. Again, judgement call - I've done this but like all advice, all courses may prove wrong. I'd say take advice with a grain of salt but that would be pushing good taste ... .

Well I would never start a new tank for discus with salt so I would not put it into a qt tank either, why would I these are fresh water fish? salt as a treatment maybe if thats the best course what is the salt treating exactly any way you say i am taking a shotgun approach but I have looked at my symptoms and asked questions sounds to me like salt to you is a cure all? for what exactly? I say certain things for certain situations and not all meds/salt is going to work for every situation. Slt is not going to cure my fish skin issue based off the symptoms and what other has told me and putting my trust into eddie who has a ton of exp in this and who has sucesfuly help out other mebers and with is 1400 plus posts I think I can trust him he has been trying to help me out from the start. Yes I would use salt if the situation called for it but at this point after using the QC I dont think it be a good idea and again putting it into a qt tank I do not see why I would do that maybe a littel stress coat

[Discus master]

I sent a pm....did you get it ???

I did not notice one I am sorry I just looked nothing.

[Eddie]

LOL, dont be blinded by my number of posts though....I like to talk alot, thats all. :D

No, I'm just trying to help as others are too. If you've started a treatment, finish it, its very important. Its not bad to get advise from others and if the treatment doesn't work, it might be a good idea to change tactics.

For now, lets see how things go. Something that is very important though, its never a good idea to get any new fish when you are having issues with your current stock. Get the problems resolved first. ;)


Eddie

[Foxfire]

Well I would never start a new tank for discus with salt so I would not put it into a qt tank either, why would I these are fresh water fish? salt as a treatment maybe if thats the best course what is the salt treating exactly any way you say i am taking a shotgun approach but I have looked at my symptoms and asked questions sounds to me like salt to you is a cure all? for what exactly? I say certain things for certain situations and not all meds/salt is going to work for every situation. Slt is not going to cure my fish skin issue based off the symptoms and what other has told me and putting my trust into eddie who has a ton of exp in this and who has sucesfuly help out other mebers and with is 1400 plus posts I think I can trust him he has been trying to help me out from the start. Yes I would use salt if the situation called for it but at this point after using the QC I dont think it be a good idea and again putting it into a qt tank I do not see why I would do that maybe a littel stress coat

A lot of questions - first, salt helps discus in a number of ways. First, it can reduce harm from nitrites; next, it makes removal of ammonia and other waste products from the gills more efficent. Next, many types of bad bacteria do not do well in salt. many types of parasites do not do well in salt. So far, I hyave not seen a single post that says salt is bad and many experts here call for it. Still, I have talked to MD's who are experts in a field and they have been 100% totally wrong (and I have been wrong about a lot of things and as I said, all courses can go ill.)

Salt is useful for helping the fish redevolp their slime coating. Salt does not harm the fish but ALL medications DO IN FACT SOME HARM (these are side effects and if you have notice for your meds, there are long lists of bad side effects!) its that they (For the correct illness) do far more good that they are worth it. I could go on but I do not ever agree that you med new fish just to med. Anyone who says that is wrong - peroid.

Salt is NOT a cure all and I never said that so please do not put words into my posts. I said it is a great tonic, can prevent fungus and helps destress the fish. I also said that it should always be a first try (if you are going to blindly treat a discus, salt is a safe, effective first try, NOT a cure all.)

I have not said or posted anything saying do not follow Eddie's advice .. if I did, please show me the exact statement and we can go over it. If he is saying salt is no good, I am totally, 100% in disagreement but I never saw that in my readings (still, that is life and you make your own calls about your fish.) Yet most people here fully believe salt is a good first treatment for SICK fish. Many agree that new fish should be treated with salt - many don't care one -way-or-another.

[Foxfire]

LOL, dont be blinded by my number of posts though....I like to talk alot, thats all. :D

No, I'm just trying to help as others are too. If you've started a treatment, finish it, its very important. Its not bad to get advise from others and if the treatment doesn't work, it might be a good idea to change tactics.

For now, lets see how things go. Something that is very important though, its never a good idea to get any new fish when you are having issues with your current stock. Get the problems resolved first. ;)


Eddie

Again, a great post. Hope no one thinks I'm disagreeing with you yet again (joke)!

[nc0gnet0]

I am getting confused are we talking about the QT of his new fish or the treatment of his sick fish? DM, are you sure all the stuff (if any) you have in your main tank is aquarium safe? You never answered the question.....and where are the pics????

[Discus master]

Ok well I guess rite now it is just that I am getting two diferent pices of advice for the same problem and I already started treatment so wht I shuld have done or could have done is of no value to me as of now, I need to forge ahead and see where things go from here, never the less it is a very good learning exp for me, and I am going to finish up with the current treatment before I move on. As for the fish I think she already got it so I will have to deal with that when I get home and just qt him longer if need be I hope this situation is cleared up in three weeks or I will go cray I doubt my fish even have three weeks at this point. So I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best. It is good to get all kinds of diferent opinons on omething but honetly for me being new to this its just confusing me, lol.
I think in my qt tank other than dechlor and stress coat thats all I am doing with it for now unless I change my mind latter.
i am very sorry this started to get kind of ugly i guess it happens from time to time, I just want to get my fish healthy and happy and do things rite thats all I do not want to fight with any one it sucks so I apologize to everyone for that lets just keep moving on and keep the help comming and I respect everyones opinon and in the end I guess I have to choice for my self.
again thank you for the help and I am sorry for everything else
hey now that im in this situation if say she does have one for me when I get home in the qt tank then how many and how often should I do a water change on the qt tank and how much of the water should be changed? remeber its that little 14 gallon tank but it is only going to have one discus in it untill he is moved over to the 55 gallon?

[Foxfire]

I have to go - I have a sick relative to see. Please understand that we all use our experience to determine advice. I have read many posts (here and other forums on discu) and books to base my advice. Still, it is your call. Experts are wrong very often (ask the 100,000+ people who were killed by MD mistakes - that does not include injuried!)

Still, experts (and MDs) are far, far more right than wrong. I do not consider myself an expert on discus.

It is stressful to lose fish and not know what to do (been there, done that) or wonder if you made a bad call (been there too many times!)

I hope all goes well and your fish do well. Good luck.:)

Remember the MD oath: First, do no harm.

[Discus master]

I have to go - I have a sick relative to see. Please understand that we all use our experience to determine advice. I have read many posts (here and other forums on discu) and books to base my advice. Still, it is your call. Experts are wrong very often (ask the 100,000+ people who were killed by MD mistakes - that does not include injuried!)

Still, experts (and MDs) are far, far more right than wrong. I do not consider myself an expert on discus.

It is stressful to lose fish and not know what to do (been there, done that) or wonder if you made a bad call (been there too many times!)

I hope all goes well and your fish do well. Good luck.:)

Remember the MD oath: First, do no harm.

Thank you again and I do apologize I was just getting frustrated with all of this and trying to save the last of my fish if I can its so stressful thank you again and good luch witht he ill relitive my mom just got home from the hosp after 14 days