The "I'm getting back into Discus" thread

[Lillee]

Hi all,

It's been some time away from discus but as they old saying goes, once they're in yer blood, they're there for life.

Long story short, my name is Chong, I was a moderator here for some time back, say... 5yrs ago? I got out of discus around that time, sold everything, not by choice but by circumstance. Fast forward to today, we're in a nice big house with a perfect location for a really big show tank setup and I want to get back into it and raise some nice discus again.

So here's the plan: I said if I were to ever get back into it I have to build myself the perfect automatic water change system (big words they are!). But honestly I have been thinking about the problem for some time and I think I *might* have figured it out, more on that later.

I have the perfect area for a really big show tank, say 6ft or 7ft x 2ft long by 2.5ft high, it will be bare bottom as the fish will be the showpiece, and it's easier to maintain. Right next door to this "perfect area" is our downstairs toilet which is ideal for hooking up an auto water change system. The only thing separating the tank from the toilet is a plasterboard wall and my wife :p

I plan to source some nice fish from Rod Lewis of Fishmania and buy all of them in one go and raise them and show them. No racks, no breeding, just show (famous last words!) I have not bought anything yet, no tank, nothing. I do have some left over stuff like a HOB and heater or two, but mostly starting again from scratch. Luckily I kept all of my library of discus books. So you can say I am starting from scratch and wanting to build the perfect setup to raise some nice fish!

I plan to spend a good 3-4 months setting up the system, cycling and fiddling before I even buy my very first fish. This is so I can tinker with the setup and get it all working right and stable and getting the floor flooding over with :p before instroducing any fish into the system. There are budgetory reasons for this too!

It's been awhile and my memory is only 8mb so I have some initial questions that have been at the back of my mind that I want to bounce off you all:

1) System size: My plan is for an approx 400gal or 1400L system inc sump. Is this too big? Am I in for a rude surprise having free roaming discus in such a large tank? or am I worrying about nothing?

2) Stocking:How many full grown adults should I fit(budget permitting) into this tank? I was thinking 20 big fish in total. I am not a big fan of adding fish later for fear of introducing new diseases, as well as territorially... am I worrying too much?? Should I introduce them staggered instead? I thought the best plan is just to buy all 20 from Rob in one go and raise them all in the tank together from day 1 (after QT of course)

3) Lets talk about QT, I re-read Al's post on prophylactic QT techniques and I am interested in doing this before releasing anything into the system. Since this is a brand new setup with no other fish in the system, should I do the QT in the tank? I am thinking doing it in a smaller tank outside is better as it means less water volume to deal with? What size should this be for the said stocking levels in point above?

4) Water changes: Now this I have been thinking about A LOT. I will post a diagram of my plans later but I have some initial questions: Essentially my idea is to create something based on a drip system. But instead of dripping water over the course of a day I will be pumping in new water periodically. On this basis, the water will overflow in the tank to a drain and this is basically like a drip system except in short time. The whole idea is based on automatic poo removal but more on this later, but essentially my biggest worry is that I am not "removing old water" before topping it up with new water, instead adding more water until the system overflows into a drain. Anyone got this type of system?

I am planning for 1400L system with a 200L reservoir for water changes (as big as I can fit indoors). Now this is only 14% of the water but I can program it for a twice daily or even more changes. I am thinking if twice this will be 28% changes daily, if 8 hourly this will be about 42%. Anyone with experience have any thoughts on this? does drip method work for anyone? is "removing old water" the preferred method? I can try to talk the wife into allowing me to put in 2 x 200L barrels in the downstairs bathroom if all else fails...:argue:

5) Sump filtration: As mentioned above, the system is all based on an auto poo removal system which needs a sump and overflow to work. I have always been a HOB / air driven sponge filter person so sumps for discus are all new to me. Are there any cons or pitfalls to this type of setup? I am not looking for a wet dry setup, just a very simple submerged media encased in several baffles setup. I am looking for advice from people with large system filtration setups. What media to use? is wet/dry better? Is the case of the bigger the better for sumps?

I have loads more questions to bounce off you guys but that's the start. Sorry for the long post!

Cheers
Lillee

[zamboniMan]

1)For me when you get above 150 gallon tanks the discus look dwarfed by the shear size of the tank. This is personal preference so you may not feel this way and I'm sure someone here will disagree.

2)As for the tank size you could theoretically put up to 40 discus in that tank following the one discus per 10 gallon rule.

3) If you are buying them from the same source and do not have other fish in the system you do not need to QT just keep an eye in them in the tank. This will reduce overall stress on the fish because they will not be being moved from tank to tank.

4) The more water you change the better. Plan to change as much as you can.

5)When you go to sumps you'll love them. I prefer a wet/dry sump combo that way you get the best of both worlds.

Keep us posted,
Josh

[Lillee]

Hey Josh,

Thanks for the reply. Regarding water changes, I suppose my question is how often to do it is enough?

I am planning on chemically aging the water in the reservior with Prime so in theory it can be ready in about 2-3 hours. so I can change it as frequently as 6 times a day, but to be honest I think 8 hourly is enough? according to this site if I do 8 hourly changes I will change 32% of the water every day:

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

[Lillee]

Hi Josh,

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding being dwarfed by size, I am not too concerned about that. My primary concern is their health and wellbeing above all else. Can deal with apearance of the tank later. I am just wondering why many prefer smaller thank sizes to raise them in that's all. Is it about them being easier to clean? If that's the only reason then it's a non-issue for me.

Regarding water change, I suppose my real question is how much is enough. I am planning on chemically aging the storage water for water changes using prime so in theory I can proably go all the way to 3 hourly changes (8 times a day). According to this website 8 hourly changes of 200L in a 1400L system is equivalent to 35% changes every day which I think is standard. I used to do 30% changes daily anyway.

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

I guess the unknown here is that I am not removing old water first so there is some contamination, but if the above website is correct with it's formula, I don't think there will be any issues. What do you think?

[Lillee]

Hi Josh,

Thanks for the reply. Regarding the look of the tank, my primary priority is their health and wellbeing. So I guess my real question was why many prefer to raise them in smaller capacity tanks? If the answer is because it's easier to keep clean then it's a non-issue for me.

Regarding stocking levels, I prefer to have a lower stocking level than adsolute max. I think 28 is a magic number for me, that's 7 strains, 4 of each type.

Regarding water changes, I guess my question was more about how much is enough. The two unknown factors for me are that I am not removing old water and therefor during water changes the new water is diluting the tank water so it's not as straight forward as remove/top up water changes. Secondly it's the large volume of water: does the same 30% water change recommendation still apply no matter what the volume of water the system has? I plan to age the water chemically using prime so in fact I can set the water change to occur up to every 3 hours. I think 8 hourly changes (3 times a day) is enough though.

Regarding QT: I decided today that I will speak to Rod about his recommendations on this I think and go with what he recommends.

[zamboniMan]

Hi Josh,

Thanks for the reply. Regarding the look of the tank, my primary priority is their health and wellbeing. So I guess my real question was why many prefer to raise them in smaller capacity tanks? If the answer is because it's easier to keep clean then it's a non-issue for me.

Regarding stocking levels, I prefer to have a lower stocking level than adsolute max. I think 28 is a magic number for me, that's 7 strains, 4 of each type.

Regarding water changes, I guess my question was more about how much is enough. The two unknown factors for me are that I am not removing old water and therefor during water changes the new water is diluting the tank water so it's not as straight forward as remove/top up water changes. Secondly it's the large volume of water: does the same 30% water change recommendation still apply no matter what the volume of water the system has? I plan to age the water chemically using prime so in fact I can set the water change to occur up to every 3 hours. I think 8 hourly changes (3 times a day) is enough though.

Regarding QT: I decided today that I will speak to Rod about his recommendations on this I think and go with what he recommends.

I think may prefer smaller tanks because they are easier to clean, and it takes less water to do large water changes on smaller tanks.

For me I prefer smaller tanks because I just find them easier to work with but I do like to plant my tanks so I probably spend more time elbow deep in tanks than people who keep BB tanks.

As for water changes I think that if you don't have a fully stocked tank you can do less than 30% and be fine.

[2wheelsx2]

I think may prefer smaller tanks because they are easier to clean, and it takes less water to do large water changes on smaller tanks.

If I may jump in here, why is that? Why is it better to do 90% water changes in a 100 gallon tank instead of 25% water changes in a 400 gallon tank if the same number of discus is housed? The fish produce the same amount of waste and you would feed the same amount of food. The filtration capacity is higher and the water dilution factor is higher. So why would you need a large water change instead of a small one?

[DerekFF]

Hi all,

It's been some time away from discus but as they old saying goes, once they're in yer blood, they're there for life.

Long story short, my name is Chong, I was a moderator here for some time back, say... 5yrs ago? I got out of discus around that time, sold everything, not by choice but by circumstance. Fast forward to today, we're in a nice big house with a perfect location for a really big show tank setup and I want to get back into it and raise some nice discus again.

So here's the plan: I said if I were to ever get back into it I have to build myself the perfect automatic water change system (big words they are!). But honestly I have been thinking about the problem for some time and I think I *might* have figured it out, more on that later.

I have the perfect area for a really big show tank, say 6ft or 7ft x 2ft long by 2.5ft high, it will be bare bottom as the fish will be the showpiece, and it's easier to maintain. Right next door to this "perfect area" is our downstairs toilet which is ideal for hooking up an auto water change system. The only thing separating the tank from the toilet is a plasterboard wall and my wife :p

I plan to source some nice fish from Rod Lewis of Fishmania and buy all of them in one go and raise them and show them. No racks, no breeding, just show (famous last words!) I have not bought anything yet, no tank, nothing. I do have some left over stuff like a HOB and heater or two, but mostly starting again from scratch. Luckily I kept all of my library of discus books. So you can say I am starting from scratch and wanting to build the perfect setup to raise some nice fish!

I plan to spend a good 3-4 months setting up the system, cycling and fiddling before I even buy my very first fish. This is so I can tinker with the setup and get it all working right and stable and getting the floor flooding over with :p before instroducing any fish into the system. There are budgetory reasons for this too!

It's been awhile and my memory is only 8mb so I have some initial questions that have been at the back of my mind that I want to bounce off you all:

1) System size: My plan is for an approx 400gal or 1400L system inc sump. Is this too big? Am I in for a rude surprise having free roaming discus in such a large tank? or am I worrying about nothing?

2) Stocking:How many full grown adults should I fit(budget permitting) into this tank? I was thinking 20 big fish in total. I am not a big fan of adding fish later for fear of introducing new diseases, as well as territorially... am I worrying too much?? Should I introduce them staggered instead? I thought the best plan is just to buy all 20 from Rob in one go and raise them all in the tank together from day 1 (after QT of course)

3) Lets talk about QT, I re-read Al's post on prophylactic QT techniques and I am interested in doing this before releasing anything into the system. Since this is a brand new setup with no other fish in the system, should I do the QT in the tank? I am thinking doing it in a smaller tank outside is better as it means less water volume to deal with? What size should this be for the said stocking levels in point above?

4) Water changes: Now this I have been thinking about A LOT. I will post a diagram of my plans later but I have some initial questions: Essentially my idea is to create something based on a drip system. But instead of dripping water over the course of a day I will be pumping in new water periodically. On this basis, the water will overflow in the tank to a drain and this is basically like a drip system except in short time. The whole idea is based on automatic poo removal but more on this later, but essentially my biggest worry is that I am not "removing old water" before topping it up with new water, instead adding more water until the system overflows into a drain. Anyone got this type of system?

I am planning for 1400L system with a 200L reservoir for water changes (as big as I can fit indoors). Now this is only 14% of the water but I can program it for a twice daily or even more changes. I am thinking if twice this will be 28% changes daily, if 8 hourly this will be about 42%. Anyone with experience have any thoughts on this? does drip method work for anyone? is "removing old water" the preferred method? I can try to talk the wife into allowing me to put in 2 x 200L barrels in the downstairs bathroom if all else fails...:argue:

5) Sump filtration: As mentioned above, the system is all based on an auto poo removal system which needs a sump and overflow to work. I have always been a HOB / air driven sponge filter person so sumps for discus are all new to me. Are there any cons or pitfalls to this type of setup? I am not looking for a wet dry setup, just a very simple submerged media encased in several baffles setup. I am looking for advice from people with large system filtration setups. What media to use? is wet/dry better? Is the case of the bigger the better for sumps?

I have loads more questions to bounce off you guys but that's the start. Sorry for the long post!

Cheers
Lillee

1/2. 400gal is a BIG tank. 20 discus will leave you feeling like the tank is still half empty! You could do 40 easy, depending on filtration.
3. Dont throw them in the big tank. Treating for diseases/parasites is WAY WAY cheaper in a 40gal vs a 400gal.
4. An auto system sounds nice, but at 400gal theres really no such thing as a drip system lol. More of a deluge system. Thats a big tank and the poo wont get moved out of the tank as itll be deep and long and there will indefinitly be some dead current spots. I do know people who use auto topper systems to top off the water, or to fill water storage, but none that ive seen/heard use it for a drip type system. Also as you stated without removing water before filling you are without a doubt going to be "dripping" out some of the fresh water as well, leading to not the expected amount of water changed as desired. Also trying to heat that much water that fast in order to change the water 4 times a day could be a challenge. Buy multiple big heaters to get it done fast maybe?
5. In terms of sumps/wet/dry are you planning on having an overflow for your tank? I think this question cannot be answered yet as you arent sure yet of the exact size/type of tank. Wet drys provide great amounts of filtration and allow for overfiltration, but at 400gals you probly wont really be to worried about over filtration as much, but it may help with your water change regime.
Lots here to think about, hope my thoughts help.

[Lillee]

Thanks for the replies. Sorry for confusion, 400 gal is including a 100gal sump. The tank will be 7ft by 2.5ft high by 2ft wide.

You are right, heating up 200L may take some time. I think 8 hourly changes are enough to ahcieve 30% in 24hours even with contamination according to the drip calculator (for some reason I can't post links? Just google drip system calculator and it's the first result). According to that calculator 8 hourly 200L changes will be enough.

I have been thinking long and hard about the problem of poo removal and have come up with some simple solutions.

1) a timer goes off before waterchange occurs which turns on a powerhead placed at the bottom of the tank. This pushes all the poop towards the wier.

2) a double walled wier with a small gap at the bottom of the outer wier. This will suck water from the bottom of the tank rather than skimming off the top. If I can get the tinkering right with the gap between the two wiers, hopefully it can suck poo from the bottom of the tank.

3) when the pump for water change goes off, poo gets sucked up the wier and overflow into the sump where it is colletced. The sump itself has the system overflow which drains to a drain.

I think it's best to post my diagram to illustrate what I plan to do. I'd love to see what everyone thinks of it and if they can help me improve it before I build it.

[zamboniMan]

If I may jump in here, why is that? Why is it better to do 90% water changes in a 100 gallon tank instead of 25% water changes in a 400 gallon tank if the same number of discus is housed? The fish produce the same amount of waste and you would feed the same amount of food. The filtration capacity is higher and the water dilution factor is higher. So why would you need a large water change instead of a small one?

Well most hobbyists will do large changes regardless of tank size (there are many exceptions to this but by in large this seems to be the case). Yes, the dilution factor is bigger but the tank still needs to be properly cleaned and often 25% just isn't enough to get the job done regardless of tank size. No offense just what I've noticed maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong just trying to help out where I can.

[2wheelsx2]

No offense taken. Since I'm a discus n00b, I'm just trying to ask questions where I don't understand.

[DerekFF]

The amount of water changes your aiming for is probly fine, but once in a while, perhaps once a month or so a bigger water change may be needed to help do a little catch up.

[Lillee]

Hi guys,

Yes I think I will monitor the quality of the water and how poluted the pre-filters get which is usually a good indication of how poluted the water is in general and adjust water changes as necessary. I think 3 or 4 changes a day is more than enough, that's 600L or 800L out of 1400L which I feel is more than what most people do here and what I used to do.

Cheers for all the replies, this is what I wanted, a group discussion on the topic to see what people are saying.

[Lillee]

Hi all,

It took awhile but here is the diagram of my plans. It's version 4.4 so yes it has been a long time in the making. I started with 1001 solenoids and timers etc, then I decided to keep it as simple as possible and the evolution of which is below.

I have revised the total running volume to be 1300L or around 350 gal.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/68Delux/Discus/th_NewPicture.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/68Delux/Discus/?action=view&current=NewPicture.jpg)

Essentially it is a normal tank with sump and overflow system with these modifications in order to automatically clean poo:

- A double walled wier - This is so that water is sucked from the bottom of the tank and over the wier
- A power head to push poop over to the wier - This runs on a timer and either set to run just before water change time, or periodically say... every hour? This is to ensure no deadspots occur at the tank bottom. What do you think?
- An overflow in the sump - This is so that during waterchange the water overflows from the sump rather than the tank to eliminate house flooding due to sump overflowing
- A poop catcher - This is the bit I am very proud of, similar design to gutter leaf catchers. Water is poured over the mesh and normally flows through the mesh, solids get caught on the mesh and travels down to the sump overflow. Every waterchange the sump overflow is flushed via waterchange. This is the part I am still working on to ensure it works and is failsafe (clogging is my biggest worry here). Any ideas to make this better let me know

Automatic Water Change Procedure:
Timer turns on the pump in the storage tank, flows into the tank. Water overflows in the tank and over the wier collecting poop along with it. Water then overflows the sump and washed out into the drain. Meanwhile the float valve on the storage tank starts filling the storage tank. ready for next water change. Pump is on a float valve to prevent dry running. Heater and powerhead mounted below the lowest waterline. Pump is then stopped. Tank refills and ready for next waterchange.

Things I've yet to perfect:

A) a failsafe for the sump overflow. 2 of them? a larger one? periodic flushing of the mesh and overflow to prevent glogging using a separate pump?

B) the sump poope collection mesh - type and how fine the mesh needs to be. Also about making it removable for cleaning. This will need lots of experimentation...

C) the bottom gap and distance between the outer and inner wier. This will be important to work out so that there's enough water pressure for poop and uneaten food gets sucked up the wier but still allowing enough volume of water through. The failsafe will be that the outer wier is below the very top of the tank so worst case scenario water will spill over the outer wier too.

D) Contamination of fresh water into the storage container while water is being pumped into the tank. I think if I set the incoming water tap to be low pressure or low rate, this will mean the cotamination is negligeable? Again needs experimentation.

D) Prime will be slowly dripped via a DIY IV style drip into the the storage tank.

Anything else I've not thought of?

Further improvments:

A) a tank bypass for the filter so I can still run the filter without it being connected to the tank for any reason. Simple feature may come in handy later?
B) Wier silencing. Needs experimentation here too I think. A standpipe won't work here because there are solids involved? One idea is to move the bottom of the wier all the way up to near the top of the tank so that there is less distance for water to fall? will that quieten it up?

Well what do you all think?

PS. 7ft x 2.5ft x 2ft tank, stand, hood, lights, sump all being delivered next week so no turning back now!! :D

[April]

your right..get all your fish at the same time. save some issues. when your done..come over here and do mine..lol. looks great..sounds like your doing it the patient way instead of how we all start discus in the beginning..but youve done that already..cant wiat to see your setup.

[Lillee]

haha hey April, yeah been there done that. This time I am going to try to do it the lazyman's way :p

I won't buy a single fish until the system is working, proven and stable.