What's the matter?

[Alok]

On 6/13, I converted my planted tank to bare bottom tank to reduce the time I spent hydrovaccuming the gravel. All the plants were put into 6 inch pots with gravel. I was assuming that the 12 juvie discus that I have would spook out, but they didn't even seem to bat an eyelid! They continued eating voraciously and continued coming up to get the food from my hand. On 6/18, they wouldn't come up to get their morning meal of blackworms and seemed very spooked. Over the weekend and still continuing, they seem to spook anytime anybody even thinks of approaching their tank. However, since they continued eating the frozen beefheart mix and frozen bloodworms and brineshrimp, I wasn't too worried, just unhappy about their behavior. Today morning they haven't even touched the beefheart mix.....and now I am worried!

Water parameters are fine: no ammonia and nitrites and 0-5 ppm nitrates. Temperature is at 86, water changes are done nearly 80-90% every evening. So any ideas what is the matter? The only thing that I do remember doing different is that I put 2 earthworms in the tank that I found under the pots outside on 6/17 and since they were looking so good and hungry, I fed them continuously. They don't look dark or excess slime etc., but they are spooked! Did I introduce something disagreeable with the earthworms? If so, any idea how to reverse it? I continue hydrovaccuming the gravel in pots although I belive it may not be as effective as before.

Any ideas/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[jball1125]

I'm not sure if the earthworm is what's causing this but I do know that I would not have done that. Especialy since earthworms are around plants that contain all sorts of pesticides and w.e else.... However before we start thinking the worse, let's cover the more simple stuff. Your discus were in a tank That had gravel, therefore all reflections from the bottom glass were blocked. Try putting a background and something under the tank in the effort to stop any reflections or shadows that could be scarring them.

[Alok]

Thanks jball, I know I shouldn't have done that...however, the pots have potting soil and I do not use pesticides. It is entirely possible though that it had fertilizers in it.

The tank is acrylic and I did not remove the paper backing from the bottom. In addition, I placed a grey colored foam beneath the tank to reduce vibrations....

[Alok]

Now I am really worried, the lights just came on and I pulled out two dead cardinal tetras and one rummy nose tetra which have been in the tank since February! The SAE doesn't look good either and all the fish seem to be hyperventilating....

[acroken]

i would re check your water. when you re moved the gravel you also remove a large amount of beneficial bacteria. This would most likely cause a spike in your ammonia levels and cause an in balance to a tank which had a proper Nitrogen cycle. You also kicked up alot of debris and who knows what else which was in bedded in your gravel. Change your water and keep changing as much as possible/ add lots air and salt at 1 - 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons.

HTH
Kenny

[Harriett]

The earthworms may fit in this equation but I have some questions about the substrate removal process. Did you leave the fish in the tank when you got it out? When you break down the substrate, any ditrius or debris that was locked in is released and goes into the water column. I think it is possible you ended up with a bacterial issue in the tank and your fish got sick from that. Did you completely clean the tank, remove the water, sort of start the tank over again?
When / if I remove substrate, I ALWAYS remove all living critters from the tank, pull the substrate, do a really thorough break down type cleaning of the tank and the filtratin system, and put it all back together. Get the water in and set up and reintroduce the fish after the tank stabilizes. I have used big rubbermails to house the fish during tank break downs and run the filters in buckets so the bio stays happy. My discus have been in rubbermaids with bubblers and water changes for a few days at a time when I was doing big stuff with the tanks.

Hope this helps---it seems reasonable to me to think they may have a bacterial infection.

Best regards,
Harriett

[Alok]

Thanks Kenny, I added an airstone and am preparing for a 50% water change right away. I suspected what you suspect, may be my test kits are old? THe hyperventilating seems to be classic signs of ammonia/nitrite poisoning.

Considering that I pass this emergency, should I just add some gravel back in the tank to increase biological filtration?

[acroken]

i would not add anything for awhile. Keep a close watch on them. Use the salt treatment. Clean water is the answer at least for now. I agree with Harriet that you may have picked up a bacterial infection while stirring up the gravel.

Good luck
kenny

[Alok]

Harriett, I am guilty of just taking out the substrate while everyone was in. I had been cleaning the substrate diligently (I hydrovaccumed the entire gravel twice everyday), it took me a full hour to do so. Even then, the water did become cloudy and muddy when I took out the gravel, but cleared up as soon as I did the water change. The only reason I took out the substrate was to save my back and keep my hands out of the tank for an entire hour..:(

[Alok]

Thanks Kenny, I will keep an eye out. I am glad I am home today and tomorrow, otherwise it could have been a real disaster!

[Eddie]

I also agree with Harriet, the fish probably are reacting to a bacterial issue or toxin from keeping the fish in the tank while you removed the substrate. Another member did this several months back and killed 90% of the fish. Sort of like poisoning them. Maybe some toxins are still lingering in the tank.

Eddie

[Discus master]

I also agree with Harriet, the fish probably are reacting to a bacterial issue or toxin from keeping the fish in the tank while you removed the substrate. Another member did this several months back and killed 90% of the fish. Sort of like poisoning them. Maybe some toxins are still lingering in the tank.

Eddie

I wonder if its caused by releasing anerobic compounds that may have been burried within the substrate and then released and spread throught I cant remeber what it is called but its caused by rotten food laying in the substrate, goes to show you no matter how thin a layer of substrat you may have and no matter how clean you think you keep it stuff always flies up when you empty it. This happend to me before I went to a Bb I had barely enough to cover the bottom in fact in sopme spots it wasnt enough to cover the bottom I vacumed like crazy and still when I took it all out one day it still made the water a little cloudy if only for a little bit. I took my fish out when I did this though.

[fishorama]

What do you use for substrate in the plant pots? I have small gravel that catches food & poo so I have to vacuum them. Some potting soils can cause ammonia or other water issues at least for a while from what I've read.

[j_li8]

adding some extra dechorinator will also help keep any ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites spikes in check.

[Alok]

Thanks everyone! It is with great relief that I say that everything looks better now. And I am glad that I was home on Tuesday and Wednesday otherwise it might have been too late to save these guys. Both these days I changed about 80G of water twice. What I figured out yesterday was that the sump where all the ceramic rings are for bacterial growth was full of gunk that was released when I removed the substrate. I thought that the prefilters would catch everything, but apparently they didn't. I cleaned out the entire sump and added more ceramic rings and a HOT magnum filter on the sump. Added some carbon too. Couple of hours later the fish looked much better and couple more hours they were eating from my hand again! :)

Lesson learnt: if the fish are behaving differently, they are trying to tell you something...listen to them and check out everything!

Check them out in photo gallery! Once again, thanks to everyone who posted or PM'd and helped me save these guys.

[jball1125]

Great news! I'm glad they are ok now.

Best wishes!