Will Salt help?

[danny2013]

i have 2 new discus and they seem to still be scared and skittish. They will often run up the walls and back down like they are trying to go through the glass. Should I add salt to the tank to calm them? How much should i add? The ph is currently around 6.7 and the Kh is about 3 or 4. Thank's Dan

[Foxfire]

Can't hurt and can prevent some illness and other problems - raise the temp (85 or so) and add salt (1 tsp/10 gal) and extra air. Give it a few days to a week and see if it helps. Add back salt with water changes. When removing, just do large WC's.

[ShinShin]

Nitrite level? Don't add salt just to add salt, or just to do "something".

[flyman767]

How big of a tank to you have them in? Dimensions? When I started raising my discus I had two adults in a 29 gallon that was deeper than wide. They never really got accustom to that tank. They ran up the walls constantly.

[danny2013]

29 Gallon (it is a potential pair)

How big of a tank to you have them in? Dimensions? When I started raising my discus I had two adults in a 29 gallon that was deeper than wide. They never really got accustom to that tank. They ran up the walls constantly.

[flyman767]

29 Gallon (it is a potential pair)
Yes..it sounds like it. Like I said, I never had any luck with that tank. I eventually sold it on craigslist. Also, it was a pain to try to keep clean due to it's tall height. :cry: I was glad to see it go. :)

[nc0gnet0]

Nitrite level? Don't add salt just to add salt, or just to do "something".

A voice of sanity on the much over prescribed use of salt. Salt needs to be treated as a medicine IMHO, not a general cure all.

[Foxfire]

A voice of sanity on the much over prescribed use of salt. Salt needs to be treated as a medicine IMHO, not a general cure all.
Unless you are an expert on medicines as applied to fish, why do you think salt is a med and make such a strong claim? Please find a paper or proof of this rather board claim/statement because I do not wish to give bad advice and do prefer to get facts - otherwise, please state your judgements as opinions.:argue:

For discus, many people who have been keeping these fish for many years both at this forum, other discus forums, and some breeders have recommended salt (I’ve read it in some discus books, too) as both a tonic and treatment for some illnesses (but it is not a medicines.)

As many books and people who have kept discus for far longer than I have claimed that salt combined with temp does have great value for discus that don't eat or are ill but unless you prove it is a medicine (and has bad side effects), I think that all the people who recommended it are correct and it should be tried whenever in doubt. While that is my $0.02 I have had great results with this treatment and prefer to follow the experts who recommend it for discus. :D

Relative to other fish, I would not recommend it simply because it is only used to treat very specific problems in very controlled doses and I am not aware of any one saying other types of fish can have this type of treatment done just to get the fish to eat. In these cases, I would tend to agree with you. :)

[nc0gnet0]

Unless you are an expert on medicines as applied to fish, why do you think salt is a med and make such a strong claim?

Just like your entitled to you're opinion, I am entitled to mine. And no, I am no an expert, that's why I clearly stated IMHO (in my humble opinion). This being said, I have read several opinions by different veterinarians on the general overuse of salt. It used to be that salt was actually an effective treatment for disease such as ich, flukes, costia, and several other parasites and bacteria. However, overuse and use at lower concentrations has lead to salt resistant strains of most all of the before mentioned ailments, making treating with salt less and less effective. Constantly throwing in a teaspoon of salt here and a teaspoon there, while you might believe it is doing some short term good, one has to ask what are the long-term consequences?

Don't get me wrong, salt has it uses. However, recommending to put one teaspoon per gallon of water into a tank for the sole reason to encourage some new arrivals that have just been in the tank for 32 hours since being shipped across country just because they have not yet regained their appetite is totally unnecesary (I am reffering to another thread). Most all the sponsors here that sell discus will tell you to expect it to be up to a week for the fish to totally reclaim their appetites and acclimate themsevles to there new surroundings.

Salt is not a cure all and could very well be time wasted when you could have been treating with the appropriate medication (or no medication at all). Salt can also render other medictions less effective. In other words, I don't beleive it should be used as a "tonic" as you do. The only tonic I am aware of is good clean water.

There, now that is my opinion, I am sure there will be those such as yourself that disagree, however, I am equally sure there will be those that do agree.

[Foxfire]

As for some vets saying that salt over use is causing Ick strains, other parasites and bacteria to get resistant is pure opinion (and a very bad one at that): ant-biotic’s have been shown in overuse to cause resistance in some animals and humans (a scientific fact that MD’s still ignore), but no one has ever scientifically shown that 'over use' of salt has caused Ick , parasites and most of all bacteria to become resistant". Until it is proven even a little (just one book or paper) it is just opinion.

I missed the abbreviation and I stand corrected but you still made a strong claim and counterd my advice.

Salt (in low dose) is not a medicine (fact but the line is not defined and my level 1 tsp/10 gal is an opinon that I got from many people here and by a top (Hans) breeder) but in higher doses it can be a powerful one (then I aggree with you but that is not what I said.) For discus, salt in low levels doses does not causes any known ill effects and this claim has been supported by books and people here and at other forums - they may be wrong but that could be said about all information. As such, salt is not over used.

As for long term affects - please. Many fish live in brackish water and some are freash water types. As for discus - short term use (which is what I suggested) has been applied by many people over many years and if it was so harmful, you'd think they would post - you may be right but until proven, most people can safely ignore that 'danger' about salt use.

As for delaying the use of meds, that in my opinion is a very good thing – I feel most people, without careful reading and training, don’t use the right meds anyway and it is good if they delay by using salt first (again, for discus.)

Your advise has merits and even the ‘vets’ you reference may have a point (unlikely through) but when discus are not eating (for a few days) or up-set (possibly ill) and you do not know why, a salt treatment has been shown by others (and in my short experience by me) to do a lot of good and no harm (unlike meds – even correct ones have been known to kill the fish.)

We can go around and around :argue: but I was not trying to flame you but you did indicate that my advice was mistaken. We use a lot of opinon and both of us are welcome to use it (and even be careless about it) but when you say someone is wrong, please support your opinon with some type of facts and don't be surprised that the other person posts a reply (as you have just done.)

[nc0gnet0]

Your right we can go round and round :argue: . You gave advice, I disagreed with said advice, its all up to the OP to decide which path to chose. I seen this debate played out time and time again on other forums concerning other species of fish.

this is a good thread:

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107385&highlight=salt+resistance

pay particular attention to the link here:

http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm


I am not anti-salt. It has it purposes, and primarily they are:

1) protection against elevated nitrites
2) treatment of some external ulcerations
3) aid in elievating osmotic stress

Number three is the kicker. Weakened fish sufferring from any number of ailments might be helped by some salt in the water as they have to expend less energy on the osmotic process and have more to fight the disease. however, there are exceptions in which salt can actually hinder the treatment by other meds.

Salt dips on the other hand are different, and they can be particularly effectived in knocking back (they seldom totally erradicate) certain parasites. How does salt do this? It disrupts the osmotic balance of the parasite (very much like a fish will go belly up in a dip).

This being said, I agree with shinshin, you don't just add salt to do something. There needs to be a reason. In the case of the original poster that just recieved two new discus and they are "skittish", I beleive the appropriate response would be to turn the lights out in the tank for a few days, let them acclimate, and avoid all sudden movements near the tank. Not to add salt.

In another thread, you replied to an original poster that had just recieved a new shipment of discus just 32 hours prior and was concerned that the fish were not yet eating. Your recomendation was to add salt at 1 teaspoon per gallon? Why? It's totally normal for newly arrived fish to not to eat, and many shippers tell you not to feed the fish for 24 hours after acclimation anyways, and not to expect them to regain there full apetites for up to a week.

Now, in both cases you could have added salt, waited 24-48 hours, and noticed the fish were less skittish and had better appetites. Well yes, but this was to be expected even without the addition of salt.

I mean you no disrespect, and I hope this does not come off the wrong way, but I just have completely different opinion (and you know what they say about opinions :D)

[ShinShin]

I did not read every word of the posts, but read enough to say that salt is the most overused and misused chemical on this forum over the years. Want a a discus expert's opinion? Give Jack Wattley a call and tell him how wrong he is. To quote him from an article in THF, "Salt has no place in the discus fishroom". (this in response to the question on what chemicals/drugs should be kept on hand by discus keepers ) He further stated that salt should be used only as a short term bath.

Salt works on osmotic pressure, dehydrating and killing some external pathogens if used properly. It has also been shown to reduce stress in bluegill sunfish. Will it do the same for discus? I don't know of any scientific research that has been done on discus. It was done on bluegills, however.

Mat

[danny2013]

Update: all fish are Now calm
and eating (never used salt). Thanks for the help, Dan

[diveshooter]

Looks like a few posters here could use some salt in their water!!!;)
Sheesh.............