doing water changes

[Faydra]

Hi guys!

I have a 55 gallon tank with six small discus. For the last few months I have been doing 40-50% water changes almost everyday using a 3 gallon bucket (siphon out and dump into kitchen sink about 8 times and then refill buckets and dump into tank about 8 more times!). It's a great arm workout but also very tiring and time consuming!

My husbands father had a stroke about three weeks ago and he recently passed away so we have been very busy lately with family and travelling. I have been trying to not let my wc's slip but as it takes me FOREVER, sometimes it can't be helped.

My tank is appoximately 15-20' from my kitchen sink so I have been looking to getting an extra long siphon which I think will help:

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/StoreCatalog/ctl3664/cp17959/si1317520/cl1/python_no_spill_clean_and_fill_25?&path=c3664-def-CAD-16667%23%23-1%23%23-1%7E%7Eq686f7365%7E%7Enc3664-def-CAD-17308%23%233%23%23a&query=hose&hits=12&offset

Does anyone have any experience with these and can they give me any information on good/bad ones? Can they also be used to refill the tank? How is a water conditioner used when refilling with water directly from the tap?

Thanks!

Faydra

[Willie]

That's the one. It'll change your life. I just add water conditioner directly to the tank when filling.

Willie :D

[Wahter]

Just like Willie says - you can use it to refill your tank and just add the dechlorinator/ dechloramine product while you fill the tank.

For draining, the python can be a bit wasteful since it expects you to run water in the sink to draw the water out of the tank while it's hooked up to the faucet.

HTH,


Walter

[Faydra]

Just like Willie says - you can use it to refill your tank and just add the dechlorinator/ dechloramine product while you fill the tank.

For draining, the python can be a bit wasteful since it expects you to run water in the sink to draw the water out of the tank while it's hooked up to the faucet.

HTH,


Walter

Walter - Can you recommend an alternate one?? :D

[Rex82]

siphon the water out a window onto the lawn will help your lawn and your back, refill by hooking a hose to your normal tap. add declor at time of water change

[2wheelsx2]

Get a safety siphon from Jehmco with the garden hose attachment. http://www.jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html

It'll change your life much more than the Python does. I have the super safety siphon with the 580 gph pump for my 125 and it makes my weekly to semi-weekly 70+ gallon water changes more bearable.

[DerekFF]

Just be careful using non-aged water and add the dechlorinator before you fill with water. Ive seen a few times where its been added after filling with water and a few of the fish didnt seem very happy about it. None died, but stress that didnt need to happen. Some people here will have a large PH swing using just straight tap water into the tank, some dont. Depends on your water.

[Rex82]

yeah i second what derek said, if your ph swings when aged then tap water changes aint for you sorry

[joanr]

Get a submersible pump. Connect hose to pump and run hose out to your garden, toilet or wherever. If you need to store your water get another pump and hose for the barrel. Put a quick connect hookup on your kitchen faucet and the other end on another hose for filling your storage barrel. Best fix in the world without going real high tech. A 55g tall storage barrel not only lets you de-gas your water, you can also pre-heat the water to the exact temp you need for the tank and do your de-chlor in the barrel. You'll need another airpump/airline/check valve/air diffuser for the water barrel and another heater also. Initial output of cash may deter but you'll love this system in the long run. Oh, forgot, since with this system you won't be vacumming out debris with the syphon tube, you'll need one of those battery operated hand vacs, like the Eheim Sludge remover or the kind with the small white bag, called gravel vac, the sturdiest I've found is the Penn Plex brand.

[Faydra]

siphon the water out a window onto the lawn will help your lawn and your back, refill by hooking a hose to your normal tap. add declor at time of water change

I don't have a lawn as I live in an apartment building. I sometimes pour some of the water into my flower pots though. :)

[Faydra]

Just be careful using non-aged water and add the dechlorinator before you fill with water. Ive seen a few times where its been added after filling with water and a few of the fish didnt seem very happy about it. None died, but stress that didnt need to happen. Some people here will have a large PH swing using just straight tap water into the tank, some dont. Depends on your water.

With the amount and frequency of my wc's I have never noticed any change in my PH at all. My tap water tests at about 6.5 and that is what my tank is at. My discus adore it when I pour in the fresh water. They go super bright and play in the water stream!

I guess I will just stand above the water hose and slowly add my water conditioner as it pours into the tank. Regardless it is going to save me a ton of time. Now I'll have to think of a new arm workout.... ;)

[2wheelsx2]

With the amount and frequency of my wc's I have never noticed any change in my PH at all. My tap water tests at about 6.5 and that is what my tank is at. My discus adore it when I pour in the fresh water. They go super bright and play in the water stream!

I guess I will just stand above the water hose and slowly add my water conditioner as it pours into the tank. Regardless it is going to save me a ton of time. Now I'll have to think of a new arm workout.... ;)

Are you measuring your water pH after the CO2 has been outgassed? I thought Kamloops water was hard and alkaline?

You don't need to slowly add the conditioner. You just put in the full amount after your take the water out and before you add the fresh water.

[Masterkush]

I would love to use the python but, my water is hard so I need to uae 1 to 5 R/O.

[Discus master]

I was told if you are adding straight from the tap that you need to add enough dechlorinator for the entire volume of water even if you are only changing 25 50% you need to add enough dechlor for the entire tank voloume so I have a 55 gallon and I do a 50% water chnage instead of adding enough dechlor for 25 gallon if going straight into the tank I would need to add enough for the entire 55 gallons anyway, is this true? Because when I do go straight to the tank I add enough dechlor for the entire 55 galon even when I am doing my normal 50% water change I was told this is what i would have to do so I stop doing that I have my tank 30 feet away from the sink so I use a 30 hose to syhhon out and I use a hose to fill my 45 gallon trash an reat with an for whatever in the trash can roll it to the tank its on wheels and use a one gallon water pitcher to put the new ater in I do this to save on my dechlorinator costs.

But if you are saying I only need to add the amount of dechlorinator for the amount I take out even if filling the tank directly then I will go back to doing it that way I just want to be sure here thats the one thing sometimes on these forums you will get some conflicting information from time to time even between the experts.

[Faydra]

Are you measuring your water pH after the CO2 has been outgassed? I thought Kamloops water was hard and alkaline?

You don't need to slowly add the conditioner. You just put in the full amount after your take the water out and before you add the fresh water.

I'm not sure what you mean by "outgassed". All I know is I have a PH test kit and I have immediately tested the water that came directly out of my tap and it is always in the 6.5 range.

The Kamloops water used to test over 7 but we got a new water treatment plant in 2005 and it must do something to the water because since then it hasn't been nearly as alkaline.

I have always just added treated, non-aged tap water to my tanks and I have never had a problem with stressed fish....

[2wheelsx2]

The CO2 build up in the water system to keep the pipes free from hard water deposits outgasses when you let the water out of the pipes, since it's pressurized. If you take a pH measurement right out of the tap, it will be significantly lower than 8 hours later once the water has been out. The true pH of the water is when it's been sitting out of the tap for 8 hours in an open container. Vancouver water is neutral (around 7) once the CO2 outgasses, but in the low 6's out of the tap.

[fishorama]

If your pH stays the same after aging, you can use a Python. I get the syphon started at the kitchen sink then detach it & throw it in the bath tub. Reattach to the kitchen for refilling after adding dechlor to the tank.

[tcyiu]

I was told if you are adding straight from the tap that you need to add enough dechlorinator for the entire volume of water even if you are only changing 25

...

I just want to be sure here thats the one thing sometimes on these forums you will get some conflicting information from time to time even between the experts.

In 25 gal of raw tap water, there is only so much chlorine/chloramine. Adding enough dechlor for 50 gallons will mean that you've wasted a bunch of dechlor.

However, having said that, there is NO guarantee that your tap water will meet government standards for the maximum amount you are allowed to get. So the extra is not necessarily wasted .. especially so if you use generic de-chlor.

Think of it as insurance policy. In the case where you have a storage container, you can be more exacting because you can test the water.

So if you can be reasonably sure that the water chemistry out of your tap is consistent and within guidelines, doubling the amount of de-chlor makes no sense. But if your water board is a bunch of good ole boys who got their jobs because some family connections, I'd double down just to be safe.

Tim

[fishorama]

The reason for dosing for the entire tank volume when adding it to the tank is that the Prime can react with the organic products in the water not just the chlorine & chloramines (according to Seachem). Not an issue in a storage tank or 100% water changes.

[Discus master]

Well yes I see what both of you are saying and I felt the same way, in fact I had done two water changes were I went directly to the tank changed about 50% and only added enough dechlor for the 50% comming in and was told by one or two SD members (experinced ones) that if I am going straight from the tap to the tank even if doing a 50% water change I needed to add enough dechlor to the tank to treat my entire 55 gallons even though the water is already treated and the 50% remaining in the tank is treated the new 50% comming in I would think would only need dechlorinated but from what I understand the new water would dilute the water already in the tank and there for it would be needed to add enough dechlor for the entire volume.

I thought if I was only replacing 50% or whatever I would only need to treat for the ammount being changed not the entire volume of water in the tank.

I mean I am doing every other day water changes now with vacumes every day to clean any dirt out of the tank so it would be nice to know if I go directly to the tank for refills that adding just the amount of dechlor for the amount I am replacing, I would gladly go back to that as opposed to using a 40 gallon garbage can on wheels.

So if you all say I can go ahead and add from the tap using the amount of dechlor I would using a container I would love to go back to the route hands down!!

I do not need to age or airate my water I already had done the test a few times just to be sure.

[DiscusOnly]

Well yes I see what both of you are saying and I felt the same way, in fact I had done two water changes were I went directly to the tank changed about 50% and only added enough dechlor for the 50% comming in and was told by one or two SD members (experinced ones) that if I am going straight from the tap to the tank even if doing a 50% water change I needed to add enough dechlor to the tank to treat my entire 55 gallons even though the water is already treated and the 50% remaining in the tank is treated the new 50% comming in I would think would only need dechlorinated but from what I understand the new water would dilute the water already in the tank and there for it would be needed to add enough dechlor for the entire volume.

I thought if I was only replacing 50% or whatever I would only need to treat for the ammount being changed not the entire volume of water in the tank.

I mean I am doing every other day water changes now with vacumes every day to clean any dirt out of the tank so it would be nice to know if I go directly to the tank for refills that adding just the amount of dechlor for the amount I am replacing, I would gladly go back to that as opposed to using a 40 gallon garbage can on wheels.

So if you all say I can go ahead and add from the tap using the amount of dechlor I would using a container I would love to go back to the route hands down!!

I do not need to age or airate my water I already had done the test a few times just to be sure.

dechlor product are cheap enough. I always use enough to treat the entire tank. If I am changing my 20gal, I use enough for at least 20 gallons of water, not the 50%-80% of water that I am replacing. As for using straight tap, it all depends on your water. Some people can go straight from tap to tank, some can't. Even if you can go straight from tap, you will find that there is a limit that you can go up to. For me, 80% is max. Anything over that, I notice excess slime coat coming off the discus.

[Discus master]

dechlor product are cheap enough. I always use enough to treat the entire tank. If I am changing my 20gal, I use enough for at least 20 gallons of water, not the 50%-80% of water that I am replacing. As for using straight tap, it all depends on your water. Some people can go straight from tap to tank, some can't. Even if you can go straight from tap, you will find that there is a limit that you can go up to. For me, 80% is max. Anything over that, I notice excess slime coat coming off the discus.

Well 20 gallons is like my normal change so thats no problem but treating for a volume of 55 gallons when I am only changing 25 gallons would get a bit pricey you know 20 gallons is nothing but to treat 55 gallons when only doing a 50% change thats a waste of dechlor. so which is can I just treat for the 25 gallons I am replacing if going straight from the tap or am I treating for the entire 55 gallon volume??

[roclement]

Well 20 gallons is like my normal change so thats no problem but treating for a volume of 55 gallons when I am only changing 25 gallons would get a bit pricey you know 20 gallons is nothing but to treat 55 gallons when only doing a 50% change thats a waste of dechlor. so which is can I just treat for the 25 gallons I am replacing if going straight from the tap or am I treating for the entire 55 gallon volume??

Simple rule for me:

Changing with pre-aged water = treat exact volume of water in the container you are aging the water in

Changing with tap straight into the tank = treat total tank volume

De-chlor is a lot cheaper than a (or many)dead discus...David Rose who is a member and Sponsor here sells Seachem Safe at a great price and a 1kg container will last you forever...and I mean forever, worth the money many times over.

Rodrigo

[DiscusOnly]

Well 20 gallons is like my normal change so thats no problem but treating for a volume of 55 gallons when I am only changing 25 gallons would get a bit pricey you know 20 gallons is nothing but to treat 55 gallons when only doing a 50% change thats a waste of dechlor. so which is can I just treat for the 25 gallons I am replacing if going straight from the tap or am I treating for the entire 55 gallon volume??

No sure what dechlor product you use but both of the one I use. Seachem Prime and Safe instructions are to treat for the entire volume if you are dumping untreated water into the tank. I guess I shouldn't use "cheap" cause it's relative but I say cheap because it's cheaper for me to be on the safer side and use "extra" then it is for me to replace the dead discus. I treat for 180 gallons even when I am chaning 60% of the water. Get yourself 1KG of safe and for a 55 gallons tank, it's going to last you quite a while.

[Discus master]

No sure what dechlor product you use but both of the one I use. Seachem Prime and Safe instructions are to treat for the entire volume if you are dumping untreated water into the tank. I guess I shouldn't use "cheap" cause it's relative but I say cheap because it's cheaper for me to be on the safer side and use "extra" then it is for me to replace the dead discus. I treat for 180 gallons even when I am chaning 60% of the water. Get yourself 1KG of safe and for a 55 gallons tank, it's going to last you quite a while.

Yeah I always use more than I need to to be on the safe side as is, so when I put say 25 - 30 gallons in my garbage cans on wheels I normally treat for 40 gallons to be on the safe side, So when I go directly to the tank replacing the same as above I normally treat for 65 gallons just to be on the safe side. But thats what I meant by being a bit of a cost over time anyways I go a bit on the heavy side to begin with so when I do go directly to the tank I make sure its worth it and I do more like an 80% change. I figure if I am going to have to treat for the entire volume anyway I may as well make it a large water change. I usually do this when I don't feel like rolling the "can" around and using a one gallon water pitcher to put the ater back in with. So it is tons easier to just use the hos from the shower and add directly from that and treat the entire volume but I go thru the dechlor faster thats for sure and I always buy the big bottels usually two at a time. I should check out the sponsor you mentioned and grab up a big bottle from there I suppose I will look into that thank you both for mentioning it. Lately I have been finding my self go directly from the tap to the tank as I am doing a lot of water changes now with the addition of a thin layer of sand, and soon adding some natural drift wood once cured. I think I would rather treat the whole tank and just fill dircetly with the hose rather than the garbage can. I am sure as time goes on I will care even less about saving the money becuase I will be looking for ease as I am starting to do now, lol! thanks again for all the info

[roclement]

I believe that you have to find a system that works for your reality meaning, time, space, and desire to perform water changes.

I mean this in the most respectfull of ways, some people have rigid schedules that allow them to fit WC in their routin almost like clockwork, others, like me, have more flexible schedules and I have to fit WC when I can and as often as I can.

For me that means that I do not perfom daily WC on my tanks, I will do at least 3 a week as I can and I keep them as simple as possible. For me it's "python" the water out, and back in straight from the tap using "SAFE" in the tank, and making sure the temperature is matched.

The routine always varies based on the stocking of your tanks, and your personal reality.

My suggestion is to find what works for you and stick with it! Don't try to emulate other peoples reality because if they don;t work for you, it can get frustrating and you may end up dropping it. As long as your water params are good and your fish are happy and eating, you are doing a good job.

Good luck!

Rodrigo

[Discus master]

I believe that you have to find a system that works for your reality meaning, time, space, and desire to perform water changes.

I mean this in the most respectfull of ways, some people have rigid schedules that allow them to fit WC in their routin almost like clockwork, others, like me, have more flexible schedules and I have to fit WC when I can and as often as I can.

For me that means that I do not perfom daily WC on my tanks, I will do at least 3 a week as I can and I keep them as simple as possible. For me it's "python" the water out, and back in straight from the tap using "SAFE" in the tank, and making sure the temperature is matched.

The routine always varies based on the stocking of your tanks, and your personal reality.

My suggestion is to find what works for you and stick with it! Don't try to emulate other peoples reality because if they don;t work for you, it can get frustrating and you may end up dropping it. As long as your water params are good and your fish are happy and eating, you are doing a good job.

Good luck!

Rodrigo

Thank you for the kind words, my fish have been in the tank now going on 5 to 6 weeks doing well eating happy active, and my water parameters are very stable with a ph of around 6.5 - 6.7 gh is at 5 - 6 and my kh is around 3 - 4 water temp at 85f with amonia and nitrites at a solid 0 and I do not really test for nitrates so much because I do daily water changes of 50% or more.

Once I feel that I am cofortable with how the fish are and growing and so forth I will scale this back to three times a week still at 50 - 60% but my work schdule alows for me to do my daily wc's usually around 5 - 6pm but yeah I know what you mean about finidng what works for you and what you can effectively keep up with without giving up.

Rite now I am ok with what I am doing and when I go from tap to tank it takes me about 15 minutes to do a water change and I like a clean tank so I am ok with how I do things I will probally feel like I am slacking when I go to the three times a week schdule it will be hard to adjust for me for sure.
agiain thank for the advice

[roclement]

You are welcome! Please remember this is what works for me based on my experience, keep a close eye on your tank and fish and gauge your routine based on your needs.

I just know too many people that left this hobby because they couldn't keep up with all the "golden rules" of discus when sometimes it doesn't have to be that stressful! Even all my reef friends that breed clownfish, think Discus is to complicated! And they are culturing rotifiers in order to feed the larval fry!!! Go figure!

Have fun, this is our hobby!

Rodrigo

[Discus master]

You are welcome! Please remember this is what works for me based on my experience, keep a close eye on your tank and fish and gauge your routine based on your needs.

I just know too many people that left this hobby because they couldn't keep up with all the "golden rules" of discus when sometimes it doesn't have to be that stressful! Even all my reef friends that breed clownfish, think Discus is to complicated! And they are culturing rotifiers in order to feed the larval fry!!! Go figure!

Have fun, this is our hobby!

Rodrigo

I think all the horror stories you hear and every one saying how hard it is and how delicate they are can scare people away I know I was really nervous when I started but the fish man so beautiful you know I did not care I wanted to do it any ways and the one thing I have learned well two things really vlean water ie water chanegs and a lot of them and qt any any new living thing you put into your tank or you an and probably will have problems I know I did the first time I tried to skip qt I will never ever do that again lesson learned!!

[scottishbloke]

I do my water changes using the "Eddie Method"- about 85 gallons of water rapidly exits 90g tank through big 1 1/2'' diameter hose onto lawn in about 5 minutes, wiping down sides and bottom of tank at same time until fish are lying on their sides (over 90% w/c); run kitchen faucet until water temp matches tank, dump in enough SAFE to treat 90g, hook up 1/2'' diameter potable water boat hose to faucet and refill tank, which takes 15 minutes. All done, fish are happy :)

[Jhhnn]

The python is definitely a step in the right direction.

There are lots of ways to speed up the drain time, like using the Jehmco safety siphon on the tank end of the python hose, or just a power head. The safety siphon is nice because you don't have to pay attention- no danger of leaving the fish flopping in the bottom of an empty tank. Putting the outlet end of the drain hose as low as possible really helps, too, like in the bottom of the bathtub with something to hold it down.

Some people's water won't allow them to fill from the tap- it's loaded with dissolved gas, particularly CO2. Best practice is to keep the hose above the water level in the tank, so the water splashes in, which will help gasses escape. Even better is the use of a degassing tower, something as simple as a bucket filled with bioballs, holes drilled in the bottom, set on top of the tank, with a sprayer on the water hose at the top. Water gets sprayed in at the top, cascades down the media, drains into the tank, and gasses escape in the process....

Treating, aging, heating and aerating the water first, then pumping it ito the tank is probably the best method- it's what I do, but not everybody can do that...

[nc0gnet0]

I use one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Simer-1-12-hp-Non-Submersible-Multi-Purpose-Pump-M40P-/320558306790?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa2c395e6

You can find something simular at any Harbor Freight for around 40-50 bucks. I use a garden hose on the exit, out the nearest patio door, window, or sump pit. On the in side I have a 6 foot section of hose connected to a 1/2 piece of rigid intake tubing. Works great for vaccuuming poo of the bottom, doesn't lose a prime like a siphon and can be used for siphoning floating debris as well.

I do verying degrees of water changes on my 6 tanks daily, (only 3-4 have discus), but each discus tank gets a minimum of a 20% daily change with a good bottom vac (poo, uneaten food). At least one tank gets a 60% water change everyday and no tank goes longer than two days without a 60% change.

I flush the intake hose before changing tanks and wipe the outside of the hose that gets inserted into the tank with h202. The little pump is worth its weigh in gold for me.

[discuspaul]

I'm quite sure what you're doing is just fine - if your tap water in Kamloops is coming out @ the 6.5 range, you should have nothing to worry about, so keep doing what you're doing, i.e. just de-chlorinating/ de-chloramining with same temp. water as in your tank - adding without ageing.
Only thing you may have to watch out for - (by fairly frequent PH testing), is that your PH doesn't drop too low, on the acidity-wise scale, through 'ageing' in your tank between w/c's, particularly if it's planted.