are daily water changes needed??

[Jennie]

since I'm very new to this discus keeping, every time I do a water change(50-80% daily)I wonder why exactly. Yes I know discus like clean water but what is the definition of dirty water for discus fish? Is it dirty looking, ammo, nitrites, nitrates? what is the cause of it exactly? frequent feedings, slime from discus?? My goal would be to change water less often. I'd like to go from 7 WC's a week to 3, so what does it take to achieve this?

[Jennie]

and.. Ya'll can stop laughing now!

[birdog]

Lol, no one wants to answer either because some want you to keep doing these daily WCs, which is to your discus' benefit BTW, or some could tell you that you can get away with 3-4 WCs a week with some large volume ones on the weekend, the latter would be weary to say something like that because of the backlash they might receive.
If you are planning to reduce the # of WCs, I would strongly advice on vaccuming the uneaten food and the poop everytime it collects.


Regards
David

[Eddie]

There is one way to find out. ;)

[Lillee]

I have one word for you my friend: Automation

It's something about total disolved solids. Nitrates and nitrites are only one chemical that can be detected with the breakdown of proteins but there are many others that aren't tested for. The fish spend a lot of time trying exist in water that is completely different to their natural habitat (10,000,000,000,000,000,000 gals or more of Amazonian peat filtered melted snow) and hence do not thrive to their full potential.

Closest thing we can do for them is to change their water once a day to fresh water to mimmick their natural habitat as close as possible.

Does that put things into perspective? :angel:

[Eddie]

I have one word for you my friend: Automation

It's something about total disolved solids. Nitrates and nitrites are only one chemical that can be detected with the breakdown of proteins but there are many others that aren't tested for. The fish spend a lot of time trying exist in water that is completely different to their natural habitat (10,000,000,000,000,000,000 gals or more of Amazonian peat filtered melted snow) and hence do not thrive to their full potential.

Closest thing we can do for them is to change their water once a day to fresh water to mimmick their natural habitat as close as possible.

Does that put things into perspective? :angel:

Great explanation!

[Jennie]

I was wondering why no one was answering my Q. Its difficult daily to do these. I wouldn't mind doing the total wc 2x a week plus a 50% also. These fish are thriving though as already they are 1/3 bigger. Currently with the intro of 2 new ones I'm getting a small nitrite spike. That after doing the chris crow method with ammonia over 10 weeks. I was trying to avoid the spike by having a fully loaded bio going. Hans fish will be here today but will remain in qt for 1 month. But I can already see I will get another spike when they are transferred to the big tank. There are so many differenting opinions on this subject that I really wanted to know the "non-argumentative" experiences of others in this forum.

[Jennie]

and Lillee, are you talking about an automatic drip system??

[DiscusKev]

since I'm very new to this discus keeping, every time I do a water change(50-80% daily)I wonder why exactly. Yes I know discus like clean water but what is the definition of dirty water for discus fish? Is it dirty looking, ammo, nitrites, nitrates? what is the cause of it exactly? frequent feedings, slime from discus?? My goal would be to change water less often. I'd like to go from 7 WC's a week to 3, so what does it take to achieve this?

The term dirty in water could be classified as smelly or cloudy. Clean would be known as odourless and crystal clear. Water chemistry-wise, Ammonia, Nitrite would be 0 and low level of Nitrate.

Young discus poo a lot and if unleft, ammonia level will slowly creep into your system. It is possible to do 3 WC a week, but it would be something like Monday 100% WC, Wednesday 100% WC, Saturday 100% WC :D If the tank has substrate, then it would be more difficult.

Answered your question?

[DiscusKev]

and Lillee, are you talking about an automatic drip system??

I would assume that means, a constant flow of incoming fresh water, this is like the tranquil flow of the water in the river. It trickles down through the steps of rocks, thus delivery oxygenated water. This means that the water is constantly refreshed within the system. I have once saw a video on Youtube of someone doing so, the feed water (new clean water) is constantly dripping into the tank at a steady rate, and there was some pipe work at the back of the tank to drain the tank at a steady rate also, hence the water acts like the discus habitat in the wild.

hope this make sense.

[Jennie]

The term dirty in water could be classified as smelly or cloudy. Clean would be known as odourless and crystal clear. Water chemistry-wise, Ammonia, Nitrite would be 0 and low level of Nitrate.

Young discus poo a lot and if unleft, ammonia level will slowly creep into your system. It is possible to do 3 WC a week, but it would be something like Monday 100% WC, Wednesday 100% WC, Saturday 100% WC :D If the tank has substrate, then it would be more difficult.

Answered your question?

I have barely a layer of gravel on the bottom, which is just enough to cover the glass. I do the gravel vaccumm every time I do wc. For now I will continue the daily wc till the bio filter adjusts. even your suggestion is easier and I hope to achieve that at some point.

[Jennie]

I would assume that means, a constant flow of incoming fresh water, this is like the tranquil flow of the water in the river. It trickles down through the steps of rocks, thus delivery oxygenated water. This means that the water is constantly refreshed within the system. I have once saw a video on Youtube of someone doing so, the feed water (new clean water) is constantly dripping into the tank at a steady rate, and there was some pipe work at the back of the tank to drain the tank at a steady rate also, hence the water acts like the discus habitat in the wild.

hope this make sense.
That is not going to be possible for me.

[DiscusKev]

That is not going to be possible for me.

Understandable, it is a complicated system.

[johnny313]

no disrespect to anyone here, but I have a reef tank thats packed with delicate hard corals. I use RO/DI for water changes. I change 20% every weekend. everything is thriving in that tank.
I just started a 120 gallon discus tank. I also change 25% every week.

I figured if my corals only need 20% new water, so can my discus.
I think people in here that change 50% water everyday are feeding like crazy and trying to grow out babies in a bb tank.

I think that whatever method a person uses and it works they should stick to it. as long as they test the water every other day or so

[Jennie]

johnny are you not getting nitrite or nitrate skikes then?

[johnny313]

not at all, but then again I have a wet dry filter with 1 prefilter in each overflow, and 4 prefilters in the sump that I clean every other day. and I'm not overstocking either.
Im not sure my way is a good way..... but it works for me.

[Harriett]

since I'm very new to this discus keeping, every time I do a water change(50-80% daily)I wonder why exactly. Yes I know discus like clean water but what is the definition of dirty water for discus fish? Is it dirty looking, ammo, nitrites, nitrates? what is the cause of it exactly? frequent feedings, slime from discus?? My goal would be to change water less often. I'd like to go from 7 WC's a week to 3, so what does it take to achieve this?

'65,
Seems funny that there are no questions about your situation. Here are the things I need to know:
1. How old are these fish
2. what size tank, how long has it been set up: it is cycled, what kind of filtration do you have on the tank
3. How many discus
4. Are there other fish in the tank
5. Is it BB or plants--substrate or container planted
6. Are they in QT, are you growing them out, how long have you had them
7. What do you feed and how often

If you can answer these, I can give you my response with rationale. There are more opinions than water chanes daily on the forum. The issues are to keep clean water, which is dependent on what the fish need at their particular time in life and circumstances, and what are the expected chemical and hygiene changes given your parameters.
Best regards,
Harriett

[Discus master]

I was wondering why no one was answering my Q. Its difficult daily to do these. I wouldn't mind doing the total wc 2x a week plus a 50% also. These fish are thriving though as already they are 1/3 bigger. Currently with the intro of 2 new ones I'm getting a small nitrite spike. That after doing the chris crow method with ammonia over 10 weeks. I was trying to avoid the spike by having a fully loaded bio going. Hans fish will be here today but will remain in qt for 1 month. But I can already see I will get another spike when they are transferred to the big tank. There are so many differenting opinions on this subject that I really wanted to know the "non-argumentative" experiences of others in this forum.

Well not trying to go against whatever one else does in here and of course talking from our own personal experince on what we have found works for us. Having said that do wat you can do not today or next month but what you will be able to effectively keep up with in the long term without giving up. I too had a nitrite spike, my tank had been cycled for a couple of months but when I bought all my fish at one time and added them all at one time like it is suggested to do, buy no fewer than 6 and have no fewer than 6 in your tank unless its a breeding pair or you are treating a sick fish whatever have you well not matter how well your tank is setteled you add 6 fish all at once like your suppose to do then you are going to have a spike. I added 6 2.5 to 3 inchers all at once on my 55 gallon this time around and no qt was needed they all came from the same source and the cory cat and loaches I had in there had been so for the last two months well of course my nitrites went up becuase any other tropical fish as you know it is sugested to add no more than like 3 or 4 and thats if they are small this is to avoid a huge jump in nitrites you add 6 juvis to your cyled 55 gallon you are going to get em my tank is was cyled for the load it had at the time but it was not ready for that much of an increase I am not sure how to avoid this from happening except the amonia method and how much amonia is equl to 6 juvi discus? who knows for sure I don't but what I did is I did huge 80% wc every day and twice on the weekends after a couple of weeks the spike came down to almost 0 then I kept it up for another week added prime the whole time to help during the wait time till I could get home from work to do it.

Once all this is done I scaled back to my 3 times a week at like 80% and vacume jobs in between for loose debris fish waste and un eaten food which equaled abut 15 gallons anyways so 80% 3 times a week with 15 gallons in between for clean up its what works for me and I can easily keep up with this schdule unless I would happen to go away or something oh I added a little salt to help with the stress of the spike in addtion to the prime it seem to help or at least give me some peace of mind. I recently jumped back up to my 80% daily as I just added some drift wood and I want to cut back a bit on the tannis and the staining of my water but once thats done I am going back to the 80% 3 times a week and the 15 gallons on the other days regimine I am sure thats good at least it is for me. hope this helps

[Dutch dude]

Thats the way to go Harriett! I completely agrea on your questions but I would like to add an other one,....are the discus domesticated or wilds? Wilds seem to be more picky if it comes to water qualety.

[Discus master]

The term dirty in water could be classified as smelly or cloudy. Clean would be known as odourless and crystal clear. Water chemistry-wise, Ammonia, Nitrite would be 0 and low level of Nitrate.

Young discus poo a lot and if unleft, ammonia level will slowly creep into your system. It is possible to do 3 WC a week, but it would be something like Monday 100% WC, Wednesday 100% WC, Saturday 100% WC :D If the tank has substrate, then it would be more difficult.

Answered your question?

Yes but you can still have turbid water that is tea colored with tannins still be considered clean water just like in their real homes in the wild its not always crystal clear its not always turbid either I go with chemistry to determine wether or not its dirty water I am talking about what is not suitable for discus to be un healthy or dirty clear water to me could still be dirty if say your nitrites and amonia were thru the roof and the tannins in my tank rite now with its fresh drift wood is certainly clean and the love it but its not clear chemistry speaking it is

[Discus master]

I would assume that means, a constant flow of incoming fresh water, this is like the tranquil flow of the water in the river. It trickles down through the steps of rocks, thus delivery oxygenated water. This means that the water is constantly refreshed within the system. I have once saw a video on Youtube of someone doing so, the feed water (new clean water) is constantly dripping into the tank at a steady rate, and there was some pipe work at the back of the tank to drain the tank at a steady rate also, hence the water acts like the discus habitat in the wild.

hope this make sense.

my breeder does this same exact thing at about a 20% daily flow its pretty nice system but you would still need to vacumke debris

[discuspaul]

since I'm very new to this discus keeping, every time I do a water change(50-80% daily)I wonder why exactly. Yes I know discus like clean water but what is the definition of dirty water for discus fish? Is it dirty looking, ammo, nitrites, nitrates? what is the cause of it exactly? frequent feedings, slime from discus?? My goal would be to change water less often. I'd like to go from 7 WC's a week to 3, so what does it take to achieve this?

DiscusLover65:
Didn't see anywhere in your posts what size tank you have, and how many discus ( & size) you are keeping in it.
If I had that info, along with your filtration details, I believe I could give you a reasonable (and hopefully quite effective methodology), answer to your question.
I have very successful experience with the kind of W/C parameters I believe you are looking for, and it certainly works for me.
Paul

[Discus master]

no disrespect to anyone here, but I have a reef tank thats packed with delicate hard corals. I use RO/DI for water changes. I change 20% every weekend. everything is thriving in that tank.
I just started a 120 gallon discus tank. I also change 25% every week.

I figured if my corals only need 20% new water, so can my discus.
I think people in here that change 50% water everyday are feeding like crazy and trying to grow out babies in a bb tank.

I think that whatever method a person uses and it works they should stick to it. as long as they test the water every other day or so

Well of course there is a diference between corals and discus, I am not saying one is more in need of daily fresh water than the other but its kind of an un fair comparison I do not know what kin of feeding schdule your corals get but I bet its no where near as messy as what we feed our discus and what o the waste produced by your corlas again I bet its not like discus waste. I do not pretend to know anything about corals but to me its like comparing discus to fresh water plants you just can't do it.

Having said that I have a book on discus wrote in 05 that says the once advocated large daily water changes re no longer needed for discus like they use to be becuase of improvments in filtration systems availible on the market to do and that just in order to replace trace eliments and to dilute the ones that may have built up to stressful portions such as nitrates that 30 - 40% every other week is more than enough!! go figure now I would not think this counts the daily clean ups for fish waste and un eating food but man I am not even comfortable with that way of thinking but thats what the book said in paraphrasing of course its the Baroons book on discus for refernce 2005

on the other hand my breeder tells me as long as I am not over feeding my discus and thats a key point rite there that once a week at 20 - 25 % would be good enough and he is a breeder!

I say for me I would not feel cofortable doing anything less than a nice large 75 - 80% water change three tiems a week! thats for me I am sure they love the fresh water and need it to grow out but this may not be the case if other are sucseful with less water chanegs why can't others be?? I do not know but at this pint abut only 3 or 4 months into discus keeping I would feel neglectfull if i did less than at least 50% 3 times a week but thats just me

[Discus master]

'65,
Seems funny that there are no questions about your situation. Here are the things I need to know:
1. How old are these fish
2. what size tank, how long has it been set up: it is cycled, what kind of filtration do you have on the tank
3. How many discus
4. Are there other fish in the tank
5. Is it BB or plants--substrate or container planted
6. Are they in QT, are you growing them out, how long have you had them
7. What do you feed and how often

If you can answer these, I can give you my response with rationale. There are more opinions than water chanes daily on the forum. The issues are to keep clean water, which is dependent on what the fish need at their particular time in life and circumstances, and what are the expected chemical and hygiene changes given your parameters.
Best regards,
Harriett

well i believe he did say he did the amonia method for ten weeks prior to this and he did say he has a very thin layer of gravel substrate that gets vacumed at every wc and its just enough to cover the bottom glass i think if you read hiz original post some of your questions not all are answered in his first post

[johnny313]

I guess it all depends on how much you feed your fish. how many fish are in the tank, what substrate and the filtration. thats what it all comes down to.....

[Jennie]

55 gallon tall that cycled in 10 weeks with ammonia method. started with marinland canister filter and hydro sponge 3. scrapped the canister filter after adding hydro 5. Canister filter was leaking nightmare. LOVE the sponge filters and that and airation are all that run in the tank. sponge filters are running with pumps. Was actually doing well with the 4 original discus(one deceased w/unknown causes) that were first introduced and recently added 2 more to recieve the spike. I now have 2 in qt from hans for 4 weeks awaiting. That said yes it will be alot of 2-3 inch juvies but am converting my 46 gallon over now to seperate off some of the fish between 2 tanks. anyway with the ammonia method I would have assumed the filters would have handled the 5 fish easily??? the only other fish is a little cory to clean up the bottom and a few neons(tasty tidbits imo)

[Jennie]

Thats the way to go Harriett! I completely agrea on your questions but I would like to add an other one,....are the discus domesticated or wilds? Wilds seem to be more picky if it comes to water qualety.
domestics

[Jennie]

I guess it all depends on how much you feed your fish. how many fish are in the tank, what substrate and the filtration. thats what it all comes down to.....

3x daily

[Discus-n00b]

I feel that its all dependant upon what you feed, how much you feed it, and how stocked the tank is.

[Dutch dude]

So thats 5 discus of 2 to 3 inch in a 55 gallon with sponge filters. So here we go.

For now I would advice to continue the daily wc's until things start to settle and nitrate becomes stable and nitrite readings are zero. The nitrate level should be kept below 20mg/liter at all costs and 15mg/liter or lower should be save with enough room for error. This should be reached within several weeks. After that you can switch to diferent water changing regime. You could do a large 80% water change every other day and a quick vacume and whipedown of the glass on the day's inbetween. That means you still have to work every day on the tank but one day it is only 10 minutes while the other day takes some more time becouse of the large water change. If you can keep up with doing large daily water changes (at least 50%) I would strongly advice to keep doing this until the fish reach 4 1/2 to 5 inch. The cleaner the water the faster they grow and the larger the chance they will grow out to nice large adults. If they would suffer serious growth issues they might not recover from it and stay small and become stunted. So all the extra atention and hassle with daily waterchanges will pay off later on. The posetive thing on the water changes is that you can watch and observe your fish during the cleanings. It is also a mind game,.....when you feel the water changes as a hassle they get a negative load. When you see the change in the fish after a large 70% water change and see them grow almost by the day, then you will be rewarded for all the effort. The reward is not that obvious right now but will be more obvious in say 5 months or so.

How do you perform the water changes? Hose or buckets? If it is by buckets,...get a hose (type that is used for canister filters becouse those are food save = aquarium save)

Once the Discus have reached the 4 1/2 to 5 inch the growth will go down more and more. This would be a good point to slowely switch over to les water changes and 3 times a week 70% and a daily vacume should be save. Once the discus are adults things become more easy. 2 to 3 times a week a large (50% or more) water change should be sufficient.

What are your future plans? Will the 5 discus stay in the 55 and how abouth decoration, substrate plants?

What is the problem on the daily water changes? Does it take to much energy or is time an issue? I remember I felt it took a lot of time when I started off with discus not so long ago. After 1/2 a year it became a routine.

[Dutch dude]

Ooh abouth the food,....what are you feeding? It doesn't make a diference to the previous advice dough becouse that already was based on beefheart or fish mix (best food for growing out discus).

[diveshooter]

I would agree with the majority here that it depends on many factors. People keep other breeds of fish that come from the Amazon, but do they "need" daily water changes? To my knowledge, there is no other breed of fish, either fresh or saltwater that "need" daily water changes. Why is that?
Just wondering.........

[discuspaul]

discuslover65:
This is a follow-up to my earlier post:

Now that I know your tank size /fish # /etc. info., I will try to provide you with some comments that hopefully will help with your thinking.

I feel your filtration is no problem at all, particularly with the frequency & amt. of W/C's you are currently doing.
Your tank size is certainly fine for now, i.e. for growing out 6 or so juvie discus of the size you now have.

And YES, I believe you should be able to get by just dandy with say, 50% w/c's 3 X /week. (That's exactly what I have done all along.)

I have a similar-sized, low-tech planted, show/growout tank which started out with a dozen- 2" to 2 &1/2" juvies - which I have since downsized to 6 - & those are now 3 & 1/2" to 4 ", being fed 3 or more times/day - smallish feedings - varied diet - all they can eat in 3-4 minutes each time.
My tank was originally cycled with a few neons, later adding 3 each of Corys & Otos, which are still in there & doing very well.

My tank parameters are maintained at all times as follows:
PH 6.9 -7.0; -Temp. 86 F.; - Amm. & Nitrites always 0; Nitrate constantly maintained < 5.

My tap water regularly comes out around PH 7 - immediately, & with no change after 24 hr. ageing. (Although I don't find it at all necessary to do the latter - use Prime only & maintain same temp as tank water.)

I use 2 A/C 70 HOB filters, with foam, floss, & periodic use of Chemi-Pure or Purigen (the latter which I now swear by - it's great for polishing/removing other undesirables !)
Water is constantly pretty much crytal clear - wipe down the tank with each W/C - religiously clean, &/or change, filter media on a rotated basis, with every 2nd or so W/C - vacuum substrate likewise.

I'm a nut for overall tank cleanliness - have no algae to speak of - thanks to regular minimal dosing with Excel. That's the only thing I ever add to my tank - the less fooling around with any "chemicals", the better, I feel. (except for the Purigen, which I think is great for maintaining top water quality for discus !).

Lighting is 2 T5's -wattage is 1.5/gal. -10 hrs. /day. ( Plants are doing very well & the discus seem to appreciate this environment.)

This routine has worked out extremely well for me (no spikes of any kind), & I see no reason why some form of similar regimen should not work well for you.
That's my .02 cents - hope it helps.

[Jennie]

LOL, I have been afraid to try skipping a day. As for my nitrite spike, as it is it is barely readable but found it odd that I have one at all considering the method I used and the fish I have. will continue with daily changes for now. So I am assuming the bioload was not as I had hoped for with the fishless cycle method.
I cannot say at this time how these fish will look over time but as I said earlier, if they don't look good, I don't want them in my tank.

[discuspaul]

Well, once again, I don't feel you should be afraid to try skipping a day each time for w/c's - & work with 25% - 50% changes - the most I have ever done is 60%, with each every 2nd day change.
And I don't think your fishless cycle had much, if anything, to do with any "spiking" that may now have taken place.

If your tank was indeed cycled & your biological filter situation was set - it was set - and PERHAPS, just perhaps is my guess, your daily W/C's of 80 % may be interfering to some extent with ongoing maintenance of the optimal bio levels by causing "mini-re-cycling", and thus the nitrite spikes.

Just so you know, while I'm certainly no expert on discus-keeping,
I'm retired & have been raising & breeding a variety of hobby tropical fish, mostly freshwater, but some marine, on & off, for over 40 years, and at one time I maintained about 2 dozen tanks & raised egg-laying freshwater fish for sale to LFS's.
Regards & all the best of luck !
Paul

[hedut]

if you want grow your fish faster and grow max so you need too;)

[johnny313]

im sure people dont mind doing a 50% to 80% water change when they have a smaller tank . Its kinda hard to go a huge water change with tanks over 100g

[Discus master]

:D
im sure people dont mind doing a 50% to 80% water change when they have a smaller tank . Its kinda hard to go a huge water change with tanks over 100g

I guess i depends on the method and wether or not you have to age or if you can like me drain directly into the shower and fill rite from the tap dechlor the tank and I am done I only have a 55 gallon but even if I had a 100 gallon or a 200 gallon it would be done the same way no extra work really it would just take me longer to fill and drain is all. Now if I had to age and airate and heat water prior to changing that may be a bit of a pita but with my method I got it down to about 20 - 25 minutes from start to finish and that includes testing the water and wipping down the inside/outside tank. If I do filter maintenace usually every saturday it takes an extra half hour I suppose. Just do what you are cofortable doing and wht you know you can effetively keep up with in the long term without giving up being consitant is almost more important than how much how often within reason I think any ways

[Eddie]

I cannot say at this time how these fish will look over time but as I said earlier, if they don't look good, I don't want them in my tank.

The source of the fish is the most important aspect of growing out discus. All water changes in the world won't do anything for a poor quality fish with bad genetics or if it was not raised properly from the beginning. ;)

[Rex82]

I have a 320 gallon system with 20 odd adults and i do 80% once per week + regular cleanups each day. sometimes i think this may be too little. fry tanks i keep smaller as the water changes are easier to do 2 X changes daily untill they are overcrowded.

[Jennie]

that's good to know. Still getting the small spikes. If I'm working a 10 hour day I'm removing 5 gallons and adding 5 with prime which helps till I can do the water change. So much for the ammo method, lol. Thought I had it all figured out!



Well not trying to go against whatever one else does in here and of course talking from our own personal experince on what we have found works for us. Having said that do wat you can do not today or next month but what you will be able to effectively keep up with in the long term without giving up. I too had a nitrite spike, my tank had been cycled for a couple of months but when I bought all my fish at one time and added them all at one time like it is suggested to do, buy no fewer than 6 and have no fewer than 6 in your tank unless its a breeding pair or you are treating a sick fish whatever have you well not matter how well your tank is setteled you add 6 fish all at once like your suppose to do then you are going to have a spike. I added 6 2.5 to 3 inchers all at once on my 55 gallon this time around and no qt was needed they all came from the same source and the cory cat and loaches I had in there had been so for the last two months well of course my nitrites went up becuase any other tropical fish as you know it is sugested to add no more than like 3 or 4 and thats if they are small this is to avoid a huge jump in nitrites you add 6 juvis to your cyled 55 gallon you are going to get em my tank is was cyled for the load it had at the time but it was not ready for that much of an increase I am not sure how to avoid this from happening except the amonia method and how much amonia is equl to 6 juvi discus? who knows for sure I don't but what I did is I did huge 80% wc every day and twice on the weekends after a couple of weeks the spike came down to almost 0 then I kept it up for another week added prime the whole time to help during the wait time till I could get home from work to do it.

Once all this is done I scaled back to my 3 times a week at like 80% and vacume jobs in between for loose debris fish waste and un eaten food which equaled abut 15 gallons anyways so 80% 3 times a week with 15 gallons in between for clean up its what works for me and I can easily keep up with this schdule unless I would happen to go away or something oh I added a little salt to help with the stress of the spike in addtion to the prime it seem to help or at least give me some peace of mind. I recently jumped back up to my 80% daily as I just added some drift wood and I want to cut back a bit on the tannis and the staining of my water but once thats done I am going back to the 80% 3 times a week and the 15 gallons on the other days regimine I am sure thats good at least it is for me. hope this helps

[Jennie]

culling the group as we speak! gotta make room for Hans fish ya know. Moving them to the 55 gallon in 3 1/2 weeks. Might remove the dragon too, depends on how much peppering he gets. You see if I remove those, I have more room for more of hans discus :)


The source of the fish is the most important aspect of growing out discus. All water changes in the world won't do anything for a poor quality fish with bad genetics or if it was not raised properly from the beginning. ;)

[Willie]

no disrespect to anyone here, but I have a reef tank thats packed with delicate hard corals. I use RO/DI for water changes. I change 20% every weekend. everything is thriving in that tank.
I just started a 120 gallon discus tank. I also change 25% every week.

I figured if my corals only need 20% new water, so can my discus.
I think people in here that change 50% water everyday are feeding like crazy and trying to grow out babies in a bb tank.

I think that whatever method a person uses and it works they should stick to it. as long as they test the water every other day or so

There's nothing similar about a reef tank vs a discus tank.

A reef tank is an exercise in restraint. Lots of equipment to minimize the amount of solute in the water. Feed very little and spend a lot of $$ and effort to get the protein out.

A discus tank is like a feeding trough. Dump in a lot of food, flush everything out, repeat. My tanks have a heater and a sponge filter. If young discus do not get constant food and fresh water, they will NEVER achieve their potential. It's different from coral.

Willie

[mjs020294]

I have been doing 40% WC a day for a few months and the fish are doing well. However, I just started working (volunteer) at the Florida Aquarium in the water quality department. We get samples from every tank in the building (including the sharks) and test the water parameters for the biologists.

They have two Discus tanks: one is an exhibit and the other is the the Head Biologists office. Both tanks have very healthy fish and they get a 30% WC every two weeks.

[diveshooter]

I have been doing 40% WC a day for a few months and the fish are doing well. However, I just started working (volunteer) at the Florida Aquarium in the water quality department. We get samples from every tank in the building (including the sharks) and test the water parameters for the biologists.

They have two Discus tanks: one is an exhibit and the other is the the Head Biologists office. Both tanks have very healthy fish and they get a 30% WC every two weeks.

I think its pretty obvious that comparing the maintenance requirements of breeding and grow-out tanks to display tanks is an apple and oranges difference.
I would like to know more about the tank setups you mention; size, how many fish, planted or bare bottom, filtration, etc. Since I live on an island where fresh water is limited, I'm all for water conservation methods.

[discussmith]

You have all heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Those who say " The best thing you can do for discus is do the most and largest water changes you can manage." have given you the best advice. Whether you decide to follow it or not will determine just how successful you will be. Starting out by trying to determine what is the least possible is toying with failure. Salt water tanks, particularly reef tanks are nothing like discus keeping. We do not have live rock as a filter medium. We do not have effective protein skimming to remove organics before they enter the nitrogen cycle which make these systems completely different. Again comparing what is done at a professional public aquarium or any other persons aquarium without supplying complete info on water volume, temperature, water chemistry, bio load, planting or bare, feeding schedule, food supply, filtration rate and types, and cleaning schedule are not helping determine good animal husbandry and are only muddying the water so to speak when trying to get people to understand that keeping discus successfully requires more work than the average aquarium of any other type. While daily water changes are usually relegated to those who are heavily if not overstocked, I encourage those new to discus to start out doing the most and work back to less watching closely the effect it has and you can then determine for yourself what works best for your particular environment.

[Jennie]

thats pretty much what I'm doing and will stick with till they are adult size. thanks everyone


You have all heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Those who say " The best thing you can do for discus is do the most and largest water changes you can manage." have given you the best advice. Whether you decide to follow it or not will determine just how successful you will be. Starting out by trying to determine what is the least possible is toying with failure. Salt water tanks, particularly reef tanks are nothing like discus keeping. We do not have live rock as a filter medium. We do not have effective protein skimming to remove organics before they enter the nitrogen cycle which make these systems completely different. Again comparing what is done at a professional public aquarium or any other persons aquarium without supplying complete info on water volume, temperature, water chemistry, bio load, planting or bare, feeding schedule, food supply, filtration rate and types, and cleaning schedule are not helping determine good animal husbandry and are only muddying the water so to speak when trying to get people to understand that keeping discus successfully requires more work than the average aquarium of any other type. While daily water changes are usually relegated to those who are heavily if not overstocked, I encourage those new to discus to start out doing the most and work back to less watching closely the effect it has and you can then determine for yourself what works best for your particular environment.

[kaceyo]

You have all heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Those who say " The best thing you can do for discus is do the most and largest water changes you can manage." have given you the best advice. Whether you decide to follow it or not will determine just how successful you will be. Starting out by trying to determine what is the least possible is toying with failure. Salt water tanks, particularly reef tanks are nothing like discus keeping. We do not have live rock as a filter medium. We do not have effective protein skimming to remove organics before they enter the nitrogen cycle which make these systems completely different. Again comparing what is done at a professional public aquarium or any other persons aquarium without supplying complete info on water volume, temperature, water chemistry, bio load, planting or bare, feeding schedule, food supply, filtration rate and types, and cleaning schedule are not helping determine good animal husbandry and are only muddying the water so to speak when trying to get people to understand that keeping discus successfully requires more work than the average aquarium of any other type. While daily water changes are usually relegated to those who are heavily if not overstocked, I encourage those new to discus to start out doing the most and work back to less watching closely the effect it has and you can then determine for yourself what works best for your particular environment.

Very well said. So many people start out with the idea that they will do the bare minimum required to get good results and don't understand that it takes knowledge and experience to achieve that goal.

[Jennie]

Very well said. So many people start out with the idea that they will do the bare minimum required to get good results and don't understand that it takes knowledge and experience to achieve that goal.

and thanks to members here who took tthe time to offer their input and knowledge. For those who did, It was greatly appreciated

[Jhhnn]

While daily water changes are usually relegated to those who are heavily if not overstocked, I encourage those new to discus to start out doing the most and work back to less watching closely the effect it has and you can then determine for yourself what works best for your particular environment.

Excellent post, particularly the part quoted above. The only thing I can constructively add is that it really pays off in the long run to invest the time, effort, ingenuity and money necessary to make water changes quick and easy. That varies by circumstance, for sure, but it's an investment in the health of the discus and ultimately in the satisfaction of their keeper...

Acquiring good stock, as Eddie offers, and staying well within desirable water quality parameters (some of which are intangible) are probably the 2 most important ingredients to good experiences with discus, imho... staying on the good side of the point of diminished returns is always a smart bet.

[Jennie]

Very well said. So many people start out with the idea that they will do the bare minimum required to get good results and don't understand that it takes knowledge and experience to achieve that goal.


I was referring to the particular quote above as in discus keeping has to start somewhere. expertise in discus keeping is learned unless you're popping out of the womb with superior knowledge.(NOT) I don't expect to keep them and not put the effort into them or should no one Assume I won't. If I have questions, I simply ask them here. Don't let the questions imply that I am not capable or willing to do the work.


Excellent post, particularly the part quoted above. The only thing I can constructively add is that it really pays off in the long run to invest the time, effort, ingenuity and money necessary to make water changes quick and easy. That varies by circumstance, for sure, but it's an investment in the health of the discus and ultimately in the satisfaction of their keeper...

Acquiring good stock, as Eddie offers, and staying well within desirable water quality parameters (some of which are intangible) are probably the 2 most important ingredients to good experiences with discus, imho... staying on the good side of the point of diminished returns is always a smart bet.

[mjs020294]

I think its pretty obvious that comparing the maintenance requirements of breeding and grow-out tanks to display tanks is an apple and oranges difference.

I would like to know more about the tank setups you mention; size, how many fish, planted or bare bottom, filtration, etc. Since I live on an island where fresh water is limited, I'm all for water conservation methods.

I have had a chance to get a good look at the main exhibit yet but the tank in the Head Biologists office was:

90g
Planted
30g sump
Marineland Canister filter
Heavily Planted
Sand/gravel mix

It had five adult/sub adult Discus, about 30 Cardinal Tetras, a few other small fish, and multiple plecos. I will spend a few more minutes observing that tank when I go next Saturday.

The other tank is larger, maybe 150 gallons and has several Discus. That tank is very heavily planted, and probably has a sump and canister filter on it as well. I think Marineland are a sponsor because all the QT tanks were running them, and they had stacks of spare filters on the shelves.

[kaceyo]

Very well said. So many people start out with the idea that they will do the bare minimum required to get good results and don't understand that it takes knowledge and experience to achieve that goal.


I was referring to the particular quote above as in discus keeping has to start somewhere. expertise in discus keeping is learned unless you're popping out of the womb with superior knowledge.(NOT) I don't expect to keep them and not put the effort into them or should no one Assume I won't. If I have questions, I simply ask them here. Don't let the questions imply that I am not capable or willing to do the work.

Please don't think I was directing that staement at you. Just commenting on what Discussmith said in his post on the subject in general.;)

[Discus master]

You have all heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Those who say " The best thing you can do for discus is do the most and largest water changes you can manage." have given you the best advice. Whether you decide to follow it or not will determine just how successful you will be. Starting out by trying to determine what is the least possible is toying with failure. Salt water tanks, particularly reef tanks are nothing like discus keeping. We do not have live rock as a filter medium. We do not have effective protein skimming to remove organics before they enter the nitrogen cycle which make these systems completely different. Again comparing what is done at a professional public aquarium or any other persons aquarium without supplying complete info on water volume, temperature, water chemistry, bio load, planting or bare, feeding schedule, food supply, filtration rate and types, and cleaning schedule are not helping determine good animal husbandry and are only muddying the water so to speak when trying to get people to understand that keeping discus successfully requires more work than the average aquarium of any other type. While daily water changes are usually relegated to those who are heavily if not overstocked, I encourage those new to discus to start out doing the most and work back to less watching closely the effect it has and you can then determine for yourself what works best for your particular environment.

I am not over stocked at all I have 6 juvis in a 55 gallon so while I feel I am at my limit I do not feel I am over stocked, I do have two small loaches and one lonely cory cat, I had thought of adding a few rams or a school of cardinals I have not as of yet still thinking that one thru. I am more than over filtered which is fine with me and I tell you all this because new to the hobby of discus keeping as I am I have kept discus now for about 3 months and my discus are growing out great!! starting with good stock is also key to the whole thing of sucess as well, having said all of that I do daily (after work in the early evening) daily 70 - 80% water change every day. I have it down to a science now it takes me roughly 20 minutes to do I wipe the sides of the tank down about twice a week and maintenace my filter (s) one a week usually on Saturdays Having done all this and feeding a varied diet my discus are doing great!! Now I have done the same thing in the begining and lost 4 of the 6 I owned due to infior or poor lFS stock I started over about 8 weeks agao with gret stock from an actually breeder who is a judge and has breed for 25 years and has a huge hatchery near Baltimore MD ever sense then my discus have had marked growth no illness and are very happy. So while water changes are of the ut most importance so is the fish source if not more so. I am doing these large water changes now becuase well A i am use to it and Be have recently added some drift wood and I really do not care so much for the tannis it creates I also went out and bought a large bottle of Purigin which is really helping to keep my tank clear. This is just all in my shor exp but once the tannis stops leeching out I think I will scale back to 75 - 80% 3 times a week with vacume jobs on the off days of about 15% or so I think In my honest opinon will be plenty especially with the filtration I have. Thanks for listening we all do things a little diferent or a lot diferent just as long as you are sucesful and the fish are healthy and growing then I think you are good to go.

[Discus master]

and thanks to members here who took tthe time to offer their input and knowledge. For those who did, It was greatly appreciated

I know you will do what is needed you did hwat i did and came to simply discus for answers as I did and still do I am only 3 or 4 months into the hobby made some mistakes along the way really SD is a guide for me ultimately its EXP thats going to do it for you the knowledge backs you up but nothing can come close to the exp you will gain thru nothing but time thats it just time. But SD can give you the tools needed for sucess I have a published book worte in 2005 that goes along with what you hear on SD and other point do not for instance water changes in the book are recomended at 30% every other week!!! imigine that they say that its the older school of thought that large and frequent wate changes are needed to sucedd but not so as toays filtration systems are so much more advanced it is no longer needed to do those large and frequient water changes now this came from experinced breeders I think in the filed and active hobyist of keeping discus who are saying this. Now for me I would not trust this I would not trust this for a minute heck my regular non discus freshwater tropical tank gets a 50% water change weekly every week for my discus tank I would not feel comfortable with doing anything less than twice a week at like 80% and even then I would feel like I was being neglectful. and in my opinon I have killer filtration I have a 55 gallon running a cascade 1000 canister filter rated for 100 gallons I have a pre filter on that I have a hydro 5 sponge filter ran off of pwerful air pump and I have a one inch air stone for extra airation now if thats not more thn enough for a 55 gallon I do not know what is I service evrything once a week and I do daily 80% water changes. once the tannins from my new driftwood stops leeching so bad I am going to reduce to probably 3 times a week at 80% with vacumes of about 15% in between and this will be hard for me to adjust as I am use to the dailys so we will see if I will be able to scale back or not.

[Discus master]

Bottom line is you have to decide for your self whats good advice and whats bd advice which advice you will follow and which advice you are not. I usually go with the advice of the senior members and even them sometimes disagree withone another but if you aim some where in between you should do fine and its alos what you are comfortable with eventually and it may ake a while and you may alter it from time to time but you will eventually fall into a "grove" you are comorftable with that works for you and adjust or make tweeks from time to time, to make thing more eficeint and so forth I am always looking for ways to make my job easier and more eficnet in terms of time and money so I spend more time spending with my fish rther than maintenace but never sacrafice the fish qulity of life or health to do so never I would rathe spend more money if its better for my discus fortunatley water not to expensive but water conditoner can get pricey so I switched to prime I did not know it was a concintrate I felt like I was not adding enough as 5 ml of the normal stuff is only to treat 10 gallons with Prime 5 ml treats 50 gallons so I use a little more than 5 mls in order for me to feel comfortable plus I have a 55 gallon tank but I go straight o the tank from the tap so I treat for tank volume and not what I am replacing so I do about 7 mls which puts me well into the safe zone. thats my rant and avice hope it helps

[Jennie]

I try to listen to all advice. I tried the canister filter, And it was so difficult to
manage, Trying to remove the head to clean canister and hoses would pop off and so forth. I love the straight sponge filteration, especially since tank is cleaned daily, what is the point of having more than that at this point?? Well for me I don't have much but very thin layer of gravel in the tank anyway so is a cinch to clean. In one of my threads I mentioned that I was wasting an enormous amount of water with the python trying to get syphon going upstairs to the only faucet in house that the pythons fittings work with but I figured out a way around that as well couple days ago thanks to another members post.
I sold off my last pb yesterday so definitely not overstocked.

[Dutch dude]

No filter can take it up to a large water change. Think abouth it :)

[Discus master]

No filter can take it up to a large water change. Think abouth it :)

No but I think the larger the filter will help make the water more stable because you are effectivly increasing the amonut of water in the sysem which will help to keep it stable in that may help reduce the amount of water changes in not the frequency

[Dutch dude]

No but I think the larger the filter will help make the water more stable because you are effectively increasing the amount of water in the system which will help to keep it stable in that may help reduce the amount of water changes in not the frequency


I agrea but only at low stock levels and adult fish. The reason is simple,....young fish feed a lot, poop a lot and water get foiled very fast. You would need a huge filter system to make up for that. In stead of a huge filter you could chose to put in a relatively simple filter and do daily large water changes. No filter will bring in water of the same qualety as RO or the average tap water.

[Discus master]

I agrea but only at low stock levels and adult fish. The reason is simple,....young fish feed a lot, poop a lot and water get foiled very fast. You would need a huge filter system to make up for that. In stead of a huge filter you could chose to put in a relatively simple filter and do daily large water changes. No filter will bring in water of the same qualety as RO or the average tap water.

ok yeah i hear you i do 75 n- 85% daily rite now and I have double if not more than double the filtration i need.

[tdiscusman]

There are many ways to raise discus, some work well and some don't. Personally, I preferred to do lots of WC, however, you can use technology and change water once a week like Chad Hughes (avionic30) in the North American Contest thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=170 (his fish turned out pretty good)

Tony