Discus form

[Jennie]

Should some discus have a pointy beak so to speak? being pointier in the face than others or is it some strains that are more prone to it? Curious. some of my discus are well rounded right into the facial area and some not.

[georgarask]

I had the same question ... but I think I got the answer when my discus children grew up ... although parents was not too rounded and mother was pointier in the face none of their offspring had similar "disformalities" ...

I think it is not from their DNA but it has relation with right water parameters and nutrition when they are growing ! ;)

[mmorris]

No, a discus should not have a pointy beak. I consider it a pretty serious fault. I suspect dna and I personally would not use them for breeding.

[Eddie]

No, beaks are a deformity.

[LizStreithorst]

When young discus are not perfectly round. They will be pointy in the face. A beak, as Martha said is a serious fault.

To me the perfect Discus gives an overall appearance of roundness. I like the front of the fish to be smoothly blended with only the lips sticking out. IMO you don't get this in the high bodied strains. But if you have an adult Discus with a beak, IMO it is a cull. Pics would help.

[tdiscusman]

For adult discus, "chicken beak" is a serious deformity and should be avoided. However , IME, some juvenile discus who exhibit "chicken beak" will grow out of it (mine do). In the thread below, Dutch_Dude mentioned that it's maybe due to fish growing too fast, IMO, it's both, not all fast growing discus will exhibit beak but some beaky juvenile does tend to grow fast.

Tony

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74667&highlight=chicken+beak#7

[Discus master]

Should some discus have a pointy beak so to speak? being pointier in the face than others or is it some strains that are more prone to it? Curious. some of my discus are well rounded right into the facial area and some not.

Yeah I have seen this before in the face I think it is normal depeding on the strain I have also see the anal and dorsal fins look diferant from strain to strain I like the turq high body looks nice.

[Discus master]

No, a discus should not have a pointy beak. I consider it a pretty serious fault. I suspect dna and I personally would not use them for breeding.

Oh I stand correct good thing all my juvi's are nice and rounded, mine are now and this is just a guesstimation not including the tail are I think from what it looks like are around the 3.5 inch range

all are nice and rounded but what about the anal and dorsal fins I have seen these look diferant from time to time is this a species or strain I mean thing or is this to a deformality

in regards to the beaky thing is it a deformality in terms of poor nutrition and or water conditons or a genitic thing meaning if the parent is beaky will the off spring be beaky as well?

what about a stunted fish can it breed and if it does will the fry grow up to be stunted even if cared for properly? or will they can they be grown out normaly?? thanks in advance for addresssing my questions all!!

[Discus master]

For adult discus, "chicken beak" is a serious deformity and should be avoided. However , IME, some juvenile discus who exhibit "chicken beak" will grow out of it (mine do). In the thread below, Dutch_Dude mentioned that it's maybe due to fish growing too fast, IMO, it's both, not all fast growing discus will exhibit beak but some beaky juvenile does tend to grow fast.

Tony

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74667&highlight=chicken+beak#7

So if young they can grow out of this? and if adult what went wrong because I have seen stunted discus just look like a foot ball but not beaky what causes this if tis a growing to fast thing then why do some adults keep it I wonder??

[mmorris]

Pics would help.

Agreed. As I said, I think it is genetic. If it is a new, inexperienced breeder and the parents were not pointy and beaky, I would say it could be environmental.

[tdiscusman]

So if young they can grow out of this? and if adult what went wrong because I have seen stunted discus just look like a foot ball but not beaky what causes this if tis a growing to fast thing then why do some adults keep it I wonder??

I can't say all will grow out of it, but the couple that I have seem to grow out of it. Here's one of my SS that have a beaky look at ~6 months and at ~12 months,

at 6 months (the chicken beak was even more prominent when it's younger)
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad279/tman1067/Snake%20Skins/ss1-1.jpg

and at 12 months (still showed a bit of beak but he turn out not too bad. So I would not cull all beaky juvenile discus)
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad279/tman1067/Snake%20Skins/IMG_2370.jpg

Tony

[Discus master]

I can't say all will grow out of it, but the couple that I have seem to grow out of it. Here's one of my SS that have a beaky look at ~6 months and at ~12 months,

at 6 months (the chicken beak was even more prominent when it's younger)
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad279/tman1067/Snake%20Skins/ss1-1.jpg

and at 12 months (still showed a bit of beak but he turn out not too bad. So I would not cull all beaky juvenile discus)
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad279/tman1067/Snake%20Skins/IMG_2370.jpg

Tony

what a huge dif i have turq red turq and ss juvi's cant wait to see wht the look like grown up!! why cull anyway if you are not bredding them say?

[Jennie]

awsome old article. Thanks for posting those pics also. the beaky look isn't bad as of now but don't want kissing gourami look either

[Jennie]

what a huge dif i have turq red turq and ss juvi's cant wait to see wht the look like grown up!! why cull anyway if you are not bredding them say?

because I want beautiful fish. Just because I'm not breeding doesn't mean I want ugly

[Discus master]

because I want beautiful fish. Just because I'm not breeding doesn't mean I want ugly

I just meant to say that what would the purpose be to cull if not for breeding or personal prefrence now that you bring it up, I mean its not going to be something that gets passed on from fish to fish I was just wondering what ones reason would be to cull unless they were breeding is all I supose it's all in the eye of who is looking at the fish and personal preference at that point, got it.

[mmorris]

I think it's very wise to want discus that are breeding quality, because when discus start a-twitchin', the hobbyist often thinks seriously about raising some fry. If someone breeds discus that were beaky when they were young but outgrew it and if it is genetic, is it not likely the fry will be beaky? When you post pics of your pride-and-joy babies, are you going to tell potential buyers, "don't worry - they will outgrow the beakiness." I've seen enough beaky adults to doubt many beaky juvies grow out of it. Anyone who insists on quality from the get-go is, IMO, in this hobby for the long haul. :)

[Jennie]

I just meant to say that what would the purpose be to cull if not for breeding or personal prefrence now that you bring it up, I mean its not going to be something that gets passed on from fish to fish I was just wondering what ones reason would be to cull unless they were breeding is all I supose it's all in the eye of who is looking at the fish and personal preference at that point, got it.

Ooo dm I sounded rude in my post! Not intentional. I should remember to put lol after each one. Us floridians are said to come off that way. Sorry. I just get to point without thinking about how it sounds to others

[tdiscusman]

I ... If someone breeds discus that were beaky when they were young but outgrew it and if it is genetic, is it not likely the fry will be beaky? When you post pics of your pride-and-joy babies, are you going to tell potential buyers, "don't worry - they will outgrow the beakiness." I've seen enough beaky adults to doubt many beaky juvies grow out of it. Anyone who insists on quality from the get-go is, IMO, in this hobby for the long haul. :)

IMO, this is where education comes in, if buyers are educated that juvenile discus that exhibit a beak may grow out of it, and when buyer look at the parent and the parent do not have a beak then buyer should have no problem with purchasing your fry. It's all in the "eyes of the beholder" thing, and I respect your standard for what a quality discus should be, but to suggest that all beaky discus should be cull is sending the wrong message. I see many show winners that have slight beak, which suggest to me that it beak may have been more prominent when they were juvenile

Here're some international shows winners that, IMO have a slight beak
(sorry for copyright reason, I can't put pics here)

http://www.discus-south.com/images/duisburg_first.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/4449133509_7b73915c5c.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2717/4450856221_e618302297.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4450851881_67453c8baf.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj221/myluckboi/11th%20National%20Discus%20Competition/C8-3-1.jpg

Tony

[mmorris]

The second and the last appear to have a slight beak. I don't see any beak at all in the other photos.

[Discus master]

I think it's very wise to want discus that are breeding quality, because when discus start a-twitchin', the hobbyist often thinks seriously about raising some fry. If someone breeds discus that were beaky when they were young but outgrew it and if it is genetic, is it not likely the fry will be beaky? When you post pics of your pride-and-joy babies, are you going to tell potential buyers, "don't worry - they will outgrow the beakiness." I've seen enough beaky adults to doubt many beaky juvies grow out of it. Anyone who insists on quality from the get-go is, IMO, in this hobby for the long haul. :)

Well I dont know but none of my fish are beaky I have seen them in books and other pics never really read a whole lot about it toehr than on here. I just look for the other stuff thats indicitve of a stunted fish which I would definatley stay awya from the foot ball piched fore head malnutrined fish that effects theri over all heath or can and they will never grwo out to full potential a beaky fish can grow large and be healthy at the same time thats why I said while maybe not the ideal specimen its still wether or not the owner likes it hates it or cares about it one way or another? the whole breeding thing well if the beaky owner decides to breed then he should post pics of the parents and let the buyers decide if they care or not you know the whole chocie thing.

[Discus master]

Ooo dm I sounded rude in my post! Not intentional. I should remember to put lol after each one. Us floridians are said to come off that way. Sorry. I just get to point without thinking about how it sounds to others

no problem I always try and keep it light hearted even though its hard to do sometimes especially when we are talking about our hobbys and the fish we call our own and love you know?:)

[DiscusKev]

According to Andrew, it is due to power-feeding.

Page 20, on part 6)

[Eddie]

According to Andrew, it is due to power-feeding.

Page 20, on part 6)


This is also true. ;)

[Jennie]

andrew? book? so is that good or bad? will they grow into their face so to speak


According to Andrew, it is due to power-feeding.

Page 20, on part 6)

[mmorris]

if the beaky owner decides to breed then he should post pics of the parents and let the buyers decide if they care or not you know the whole chocie thing.

Well put. :)

I guess you could say I power feed.

[DiscusKev]

andrew? book? so is that good or bad? will they grow into their face so to speak

Andrew Soh. The Naked Truth :) So-so. No, because discus that is not meant to be round or high bodied will get a 'parrot mouth' from power feeding. In otherwords, elongated bodied discus that have been power fed will become a high bodied fish, but will forever retain the beaky look.

[mmorris]

Andrew Soh. The Naked Truth :) So-so. No, because discus that is not meant to be round or high bodied will get a 'parrot mouth' from power feeding. In otherwords, elongated bodied discus that have been power fed will become a high bodied fish, but will forever retain the beaky look.

That makes sense. Start with poor quality, you get poor quality.

[tdiscusman]

According to Andrew, it is due to power-feeding.

Page 20, on part 6)

Thanks, I knew there is something to this beside bad gene :D. So if discus which does not meant to have high body and you power feed, it will have beak and will not go away, while if discus meant to have have high body when power feed they will have beak as juvi and will grow into the beak when adult.

Tony

[LizStreithorst]

I don't think that I buy into this theory of Andrew's. I don't have his experience but I agree with Martha. It's genetic.

[Jennie]

Ok so what about large eyes then?

[mmorris]

Thanks, I knew there is something to this beside bad gene :D. So if discus which does not meant to have high body and you power feed, it will have beak and will not go away, while if discus meant to have have high body when power feed they will have beak as juvi and will grow into the beak when adult.

Tony
Almost - it is still genetics. Andrew described the body of the beaky fish as ELONGATED, rather than round or high-bodied. That's a 'bad gene!" Andrew says "the shape of the mouth is a genetic trait because it is meant fore an elongated body shape discus. But because of forced feeding...the body expanded vertically and the fatty forehead grows outward." (Soh, Discus: The Naked Truth, p. 20). If a breeder consistently produces beaky discus, he either needs to change his practices, he needs to change his stock, or he needs to do both.

[LizStreithorst]

In some strains it is more difficult to acheive a small eye.

[mmorris]

I don't think that I buy into this theory of Andrew's. I don't have his experience but I agree with Martha. It's genetic.

I have some pretty serious doubts about this theory as well. :)

[Jennie]

Almost - it is still genetics. Andrew described the body of the beaky fish as ELONGATED, rather than round or high-bodied. That's a 'bad gene!" Andrew says "the shape of the mouth is a genetic trait because it is meant fore an elongated body shape discus. But because of forced feeding...the body expanded vertically and the fatty forehead grows outward." (Soh, Discus: The Naked Truth, p. 20). If a breeder consistently produces beaky discus, he either needs to change his practices, he needs to change his stock, or he needs to do both.

one of my fish I have is beaky but not elongated. and what is considered force feeding?

[Eddie]

one of my fish I have is beaky but not elongated. and what is considered force feeding?


Its not an exact science, could be different things. If the fish did not develop properly early on and then started to get force fed, this could be the case. Either way, its not reversible. Beaky fish will remain beaky.

[mmorris]

LOL How do you force-feed a fry? They are pretty willing eaters!

[LizStreithorst]

I think he meant like you do, Martha. Good food tossed in 5 times a day. It's not force feeding as in the Goose for pate de fois gras. It's giving the fish all they could want to eat.

I don't believe that it causes a beak.

Done here.

[Eddie]

LOL How do you force-feed a fry? They are pretty willing eaters!


I guess you would have to do it to find out. LOL Some feed 3 times a day and some 12 times. ;)

[Jennie]

I've increased feedings to six times a day. Heck, feeding four times or six times, still changing out the water anyway so going to beef them up. And this is getting off the beak and eyeball discussion, but, I try to do allot of researching on discus care and more and When it comes to feeding for size, how long to keep the feedings at higher levels differs from one opinion to another. Some say feed high amounts daily for 18 months, some say 5-6 months.

[Eddie]

I've increased feedings to six times a day. Heck, feeding four times or six times, still changing out the water anyway so going to beef them up. And this is getting off the beak and eyeball discussion, but, I try to do allot of researching on discus care and more and When it comes to feeding for size, how long to keep the feedings at higher levels differs from one opinion to another. Some say feed high amounts daily for 18 months, some say 5-6 months.


Thats right, everybody does things different. And to be honest, nobody posting in this thread has written any books on the matter. We can all tell our opinions but if nobody's ever experienced it...it's zero. ;)

[Jennie]

Thats right, everybody does things different. And to be honest, nobody posting in this thread has written any books on the matter. We can all tell our opinions but if nobody's ever experienced it...it's zero. ;)

lol Eddie, not just here but any discus article/forum I can find on internet. Their all very different. It can tend to confuse one, ya know:)

[Eddie]

lol Eddie, not just here but any discus article/forum I can find on internet. Their all very different. It can tend to confuse one, ya know:)


Oh yeah....lots of confusion out there. Its basically boiled down to disecting the information on what is or is not the truth. And even then, the truth for who. ;)

[mmorris]

It's giving the fish all they could want to eat.

I don't believe that it causes a beak.

.

No, certainly not in my experience.

[Keith Perkins]

LOL How do you force-feed a fry? They are pretty willing eaters!

I don't know how you force-feed either, but you guys are sure conjuring up some odd mental images. Is that Eddie I see holding a juvie mouth facing up and a pair of tweezers with beefheart in them headed for it's mouth? Nope, not tweezers, chopsticks.

[Eddie]

I don't know how you force-feed either, but you guys are sure conjuring up some odd mental images. Is that Eddie I see holding a juvie mouth facing up and a pair of tweezers with beefheart in them headed for it's mouth? Nope, not tweezers, chopsticks.

LOL, power feeding, not force feeding. Now you got me thinking....why are you imagining me. :o

[Jennie]

LOL, power feeding, not force feeding. Now you got me thinking....why are you imagining me. :o

LMAO! omg....

[Keith Perkins]

LOL, power feeding, not force feeding. Now you got me thinking....why are you imagining me. :o

Martha came to mind too, but I pick on her way too much. Besides, the chopsticks could ONLY be you. And that hand I'm seeing is way too hairy to be Martha's.

[Eddie]

Martha came to mind too, but I pick on her way too much. Besides, the chopsticks could ONLY be you. And that hand I'm seeing is way too hairy to be Martha's.

Hmmm....you have a wild imagination. And how do you know? :D

[mmorris]

Oh dear, it's late; I can't think of anything clever. :gorgeous:

[Keith Perkins]

Oh dear, it's late; I can't think of anything clever. :gorgeous:

You don't have to think of anything clever, just verbally slap Eddie for suggesting you have hairy man hands. :D

[Eddie]

You don't have to think of anything clever, just verbally slap Eddie for suggesting you have hairy man hands.


Hey...how do you know that I wasn't just suggesting that mine aren't hairy. :o

cough cough

[Keith Perkins]

Eddie - I take it the military still issues those little fold out shovels.

[Eddie]

Eddie - I take it the military still issues those little fold out shovels.


LOL, no...they dont give those to the Air Force guys. :D

[Keith Perkins]

LOL - man the way you were slinging it and digging yourself a hole I would have thought for sure they did.

Sorry for getting so way off topic, but it was fun.

[tdiscusman]

Almost - it is still genetics. Andrew described the body of the beaky fish as ELONGATED, rather than round or high-bodied. That's a 'bad gene!" Andrew says "the shape of the mouth is a genetic trait because it is meant fore an elongated body shape discus. But because of forced feeding...the body expanded vertically and the fatty forehead grows outward." (Soh, Discus: The Naked Truth, p. 20). If a breeder consistently produces beaky discus, he either needs to change his practices, he needs to change his stock, or he needs to do both.

I agreed with Eddie in that most everyone here is just stating their opinions and if someone do have some experiences with beaky discus, i don't think it's enough experience to declare it's as fact one way or another. Andrew Soh, IMO have more experience in regard to this than most of us and still many are not convince.

I agreed with Andrew statement "If a breeder consistently produces beaky discus, he either needs to change his practices, he needs to change his stock, or he needs to do both." The key word here is consistently, if one consistently have beaky fish then they need to change. My experience with 1 beaky discus has lead me to believed and agreed with Andrew that some beaky discus are due to genetics and some are due to power feeding and with power feeding it's reversible as the case with my discus.

Tony

P.S I think Andrew meant Power Feed and not Force Feed

[mmorris]

I agreed with Andrew statement "If a breeder consistently produces beaky discus, he either needs to change his practices, he needs to change his stock, or he needs to do both." My experience with 1 beaky discus has lead me to believed and agreed with Andrew that some beaky discus are due to genetics and some are due to power feeding and with power feeding it's reversible as the case with my discus.

Tony

P.S I think Andrew meant Power Feed and not Force Feed

That wasn't Andrew's statement; that was mine. I think that, according to his theory, beaky IS a result of genetics. If the fish was round or high-bodied to start with, it wouldn't end up beaky. I power-feed all my fry (I suppose) and they do no appear beaky. Again, I have seen a lot of beaky adults so while the fish may sometimes grow out of it, that is not always the case.

[tdiscusman]

That wasn't Andrew's statement; that was mine. I think that, according to his theory, beaky IS a result of genetics. If the fish was round or high-bodied to start with, it wouldn't end up beaky. I power-feed all my fry (I suppose) and they do no appear beaky. Again, I have seen a lot of beaky adults so while the fish may sometimes grow out of it, that is not always the case.

Opps, thank you Martha for the clarification, anyway I agreed with you that they need to change both, methods and stock, if they are consistently producing beaky discus.

Tony

[kaceyo]

I'm with Liz and Martha on this one. By Andrews theory, anyone who powerfeeds their fish should get some beaky ones, as there are footballs in every spawn. Not all footballs that are power fed will end up tall or round, but those that do should have beaks, right? Or not?

[Harriett]

Well, we have 4 screens worth of genetic vs not genetic vs power feeding issues. Beaky parents make beaky babies that grow to be beaky adults in my experience. OK.

BUT the other point in this thread that has not been addressed so far is DiscusLover65's situation. DL65 has stated they are a relative newbie to the hobby and to SD, spent some hard earned coins and newbie enthusiasm on some juvies from what I understand, and I think it is a shame that the seller sold him/her beaky juvies [and easy target]. That's what is bugging me and is my concern. I would hope that NO SPONSOR here would intentionally sell deformed fish especially to our own SD members; and I don't know where these beaky guys came from! Can we see some photos of the new discus you got so we can see what's up? Unless I missed a post, I didn't see any.
Best regards,
Harriett
DiscusLuver65

[Eddie]

LOL - man the way you were slinging it and digging yourself a hole I would have thought for sure they did.

Sorry for getting so way off topic, but it was fun.


LOL, I think everybody is digging a hole in this one since nobody has any first hand experience. I'd like to see Andrew step in, since he might have a little more experience than all of us put together. ;)

[mmorris]

I think that those of us who breed have first hand experience.

[Jennie]

Well, we have 4 screens worth of genetic vs not genetic vs power feeding issues. Beaky parents make beaky babies that grow to be beaky adults in my experience. OK.

BUT the other point in this thread that has not been addressed so far is DiscusLover65's situation. DL65 has stated they are a relative newbie to the hobby and to SD, spent some hard earned coins and newbie enthusiasm on some juvies from what I understand, and I think it is a shame that the seller sold him/her beaky juvies [and easy target]. That's what is bugging me and is my concern. I would hope that NO SPONSOR here would intentionally sell deformed fish especially to our own SD members; and I don't know where these beaky guys came from! Can we see some photos of the new discus you got so we can see what's up? Unless I missed a post, I didn't see any.
Best regards,
Harriett
DiscusLuver65
harriet, in general of the fish I bought to date, 50 % of these are not up to what I would consider quality fish. of those that look ok, 25% still not what I expected Yes I am new to this but I'm not stupid. I know what should be and what I expect in a discus even if it's only 2 inches. Beeky mouths, huge eyes and dorsals set to far back? Really??? not good quality features, so in general not just any one particular seller. In my situation living in colorado and having no local breeders with quality stock, I can't just fly out to the hatcheries and hand pick my fish, I have to put faith and trust in the sellers to send me nice fish. Grade A fish. Especially since it isn't just the cost of the fish I'm shelling out but also shipping fees. That said, all I can do is persevere.

[Eddie]

I think that those of us who breed have first hand experience.

Sure