No lights in the Amazon

[Tito]

I have decided to keep my lights on 24/7 for my Leopard pair - as I want to take no chances with this brood.

However, in the Amazon - Discus have no night-lights. Perhaps when the Moon is full there is some indirect illumination but what about when there is half moon or less or a new moon? With a new moon there would be no illumination whatsoever. So how can discus parents keep track of their wigglers in the pitch black?

Anybody care to chime in?

Is this covered in any books? If so and you read it - can you share the particulars with me? I'm just curious.

I noticed that many breeders keep lights on or offer some kind of night lighting - so as to give the parents the ability to keep track of their wigglers.


Again - there are no night lights in nature.

[mmorris]

Very few survive in nature. :)

[Eddie]

Good question, several different theories are out there, from the slime coat to vibration of the parents. Its that 6th sense. :D I'm sure if you did a test, you would find that the fry and parents would still find each other with no lighting. Obviously this would depend on the strain as some of today's man made types can be tough to get fry attached.

[mmorris]

If I leave the lights off at night, the fry are scattered all over the tank.

[Eddie]

If I leave the lights off at night, the fry are scattered all over the tank.

Everybody has different experiences. I've left on vacation and still had fry attach to the parents. All lights off, just the daily rise and fall of the sun. But again, not all have had the same experiences. ;)

Eddie

[mmorris]

They attach again once there is light...

[Eddie]

They attach again once there is light...


Thats good enough for me! ;)

[Tito]

Very interesting indeed. I wonder if there is an area set by the parents somehow - to where as the fry will only wonder off but so far at night and when daylight resumes the fry will return to the parents or the parents will search them all out.

I wonder if an infrared camera in the Amazon by a nest would settle the question?

[Altum Nut]

Just a thought Tito,

When my lights go off at night...I have a strip of blue moon led lights that come on via timer. They have a dial that I can control that would simulate a full spectrum bright full moon or dim it down. Looks kind of cool when all room and tank lights are off.
Maybe something you can consider.

...Ralph

[Eddie]

Very interesting indeed. I wonder if there is an area set by the parents somehow - to where as the fry will only wonder off but so far at night and when daylight resumes the fry will return to the parents or the parents will search them all out.

I wonder if an infrared camera in the Amazon by a nest would settle the question?

Could be but if you've seen some of the videos out with discus wrigglers and free-swimmers in the wild, the current is very high. I'd think if went to complete darkness, most would get swept away. But it is survival of the fittest in nature and adaptation to the environment. Fish in the wild can do some extraordinary things with regard to survival.

Eddie

[Tito]

I just turned off the lights. There is a blue actinic over the main tank which shines into the breeder. Within a minute a few wigglers began dispersing. I could see the parents begin to scoop them up. They cuold see them but not all of them. When I turned on the lights one was at the surface - it took a full 70 seconds before dad spotted him and returned him ti the nest. Lights will stay on for now.

I'm leaning towards the vibration theory. I noticed that I have the air filter going so that would send a vibration noise of some sort into the water column. Of course there are no air filters in teh Amazon. Eddie - I was under the impression that the areas where Discus spawn in the Amazon don't have any fast current??? Vibration theory would go out the window under those circumstances. But in still water by the tree roots????

[Eddie]

Good point. I'm sure many of the spawns occur in slow moving water but I have seen video footage of a pair in fast moving water and still with fry attached. I'll check out utube and see if I can find it. But the vibration theory could be, and as you say, the air from the sponges is jacking them up. I remember someone at the NADA show said the exact thing about pairs and attach problems. That the movement of only the parents helped to get the fry attached.

Eddie

[mmorris]

Thats good enough for me! ;)

I like knowing they are attached and feeding at night. ;)
Perhaps there is enough light in the wild that, combined with the parents' vibrations, keeps the fry from straying far. I'm sure there are other factors as well.

[Eddie]

Here you go Tito, not the fast moving current video but a good video of them in nature. Obviously the sun goes down, so you can imagine all the places the fry can scatter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHgnnJiShRA

[Ed13]

Ever been camping in a very isolated area, no city lights around around? The sky is crazy bright with thousands of stars! Now imagine a pristine area in Amazonia on a clear sky. ;)

Of course I've never been, but we have Hudson, Heiko, Dale, and Anthony(Ichtyologist) who have actually been to amazonia that can confirm, deny, elaborate on the subject.

NO comment as to how it influences fry in the wild or with domestic discus though.

[Tito]

Thanks for the video Eddie - it was really cool. I did noticed the current was a tad strong. Only thing I can think of is that Wild Discus fry must be able to sense either danger or a need to stick to the parents in such a current. Our tanks can in no way simulate what I just saw in that video!

Ed - with a sky full of stars and perhaps even some moon - it is posible that enough light is sensed under water by Discus. But what about the trees?

I did observe something interesting last night. There was a wiggler free swimming at the opposite end of the cone - way up top of the 29. Dad had made his way over there slowly but surely. It seemed as if he was on some kind of patrol mostly - then looking at me he moved forward a bit and stopped - at teh time he did this the wiggler was moving up top then the wiggler had sort of stopped for a bit. As the wiggler began moving again dad stopped looking in my direction and then turned towards the wiggler which was to his top right and he moved toward the fry and scooped it up. I got the impression daddy Discus was operating first on vibration and then line of sight.

[Discus master]

Ever been camping in a very isolated area, no city lights around around? The sky is crazy bright with thousands of stars! Now imagine a pristine area in Amazonia on a clear sky. ;)

Of course I've never been, but we have Hudson, Heiko, Dale, and Anthony(Ichtyologist) who have actually been to amazonia that can confirm, deny, elaborate on the subject.

NO comment as to how it influences fry in the wild or with domestic discus though.

Well I would say that there lateral line is the answer here remeber that? I am talking to every one sorry I quoted you this is a=just to throw this out there its there 6th sense they dedect with that tiny electrical pulse they emmit it the reason why the cave fish with no eyes and the ones with poor eye sight or the ones in realy merky water can still find there way araound. This is not indicitve of one fish or another they all have this. It is the sensory nevrs the open holes in their laterla line that allow for this and the small electrical field they produce around that that allows them to a navigate in the water b dedect other fish or prey and finally keep track of their young! It almost like the sonar of a bat, but its the 6th sense of the fish indeed I think it runs along that line that runs from the top lip of their mouths and runs back toward their tails I think this is the answer I would be about 90% confident thats what it is. Fish 101 rite? lol:D

[Discus master]

Here you go Tito, not the fast moving current video but a good video of them in nature. Obviously the sun goes down, so you can imagine all the places the fry can scatter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHgnnJiShRA

during the mark of the rainy seasion the parents move up toward the shawlows amung the leafe litter and root systems of now partialy sumerged trees to spwan once the fry hatch the parents move them even further back up under the tnagled roots where they let them grow to the start to take that discus shape at only 8 to 10mm in size around then the parents will take em out a bit and let them begin to forage the leafe litter on the bottom but still near the shalows this is where they spwan very calm waters for sure. during the dry season there are fast flowing central chanels where he fish will setelt in here and stay swiming in the fast moving currents but not spwan untill the rainy season where they move up toward the tree line which is more submerged now. the area during the dry season is like a swamp with the fast moving chanel in the middle and then the rainy season it more of a lake also the river undulates some so the out side curves are deeper and slower moving while the inside curves are shalow and faster moving. I have read alot about their natural habitat and I have no ambitons at this pint to breed I just like to read about nature. hope this helps:)

[Tito]

DM - thanks for sharing!

I'm sure all that has been said here most likely plays a role on how Discus are able to raise fry in the wild. It is fascinating.

[Discus master]

DM - thanks for sharing!

I'm sure all that has been said here most likely plays a role on how Discus are able to raise fry in the wild. It is fascinating.

Yeah its freaking cool!

and my wife likes my discus but i think she looks at it like another woman as I am always babying them and pamperng them I know she gets crazy jealous but I know when they are full grown she will say wow and I will say yeah thats why we discus owners do what we do it makes it all worth the effort and its part of the enjotment and satifaction we get from our hoby she stay at home mom and feeds em whatever I tell her to feed em through the day so I know she has to take an interst in them some what she often makes little coments like did you see this one or that one it seems to be grwoing and did you notice when the fish turns this way or that way it makes the fishys colors look a little diferent well if she was not looking at them how would she know that so she must be observing them some to know all that plus she will tell me which one she thinks is dominate and which one get the most bullyed and so forth make sure they all get a fair share hand feeds the the frozen foods gives em pelets and always around the same time each day so what that say?

but when I am hiome taking such good care of them and spoiling them and watching them for extended period of time boy I know she gets jealous I told her last night I was oing a water change and she said why do you have to God they way you dought on those fish it takes me 20 minutes for an 80% water change now i have gotten that eficient and she knows it man I swear she is jealosu of those fish I can hold her in bed watch tv and still see my discus because there rite there lol lol :D truth be told I love my wife big time but man these fish are certainly do hold my attention they are so pretty and mezmorizing to watch! oh and so is my wife;)

[Tito]

LOL Nice comment DM - I enjoyed that!!

BUT


BUT


LOL

BUT

Your wife is jelous yes - but that's because she wants the Discus to herself and she knows she can do a better job!

[discusdaves]

I have decided to keep my lights on 24/7 for my Leopard pair - as I want to take no chances with this brood.

I noticed that many breeders keep lights on or offer some kind of night lighting - so as to give the parents the ability to keep track of their wigglers.

Again - there are no night lights in nature.


I myself do use a night light, discus are very unpredictable fish, especially when spawning and raising fry. I have tried many different things to keep parents from losing it and eating their fry, the best possible advice i can give you is keep it consistent!!!!! Parents eat their fry for a reason, nobody knows the exact reason, but it usually coincides with a change, whether it is water quality, lighting, temp... ect. Now then, we can’t compare our domesticated discus to wilds, we do not breed them the same as they breed in the wild. In the wild discus live in shoals with one alpha male as the head of the shoal and that is their means of breeding, in a tank setting we separate our pairs so the male doesn’t sleep around, so nothing that you are going to do is anything like the wild! So get a routine and keep it consistent.

[DiscusKev]

Wow, I completely forgetten about the Lateral line! Great post everyone!

[Discus master]

LOL Nice comment DM - I enjoyed that!!

BUT


BUT


LOL

BUT

Your wife is jelous yes - but that's because she wants the Discus to herself and she knows she can do a better job!

rite!!!

[Discus master]

Wow, I completely forgetten about the Lateral line! Great post everyone!

Yup as soon as I read someone say 6th sense it made me think of it!

[mmorris]

Ever been camping in a very isolated area, no city lights around around? The sky is crazy bright with thousands of stars! Now imagine a pristine area in Amazonia on a clear sky. ;)
.

Yes, I've camped in the Peruvian jungle. A bit tough to see much of the sky for the trees though.

[Discus master]

Yes, I've camped in the Peruvian jungle. A bit tough to see much of the sky for the trees though.

maybe clearer down by the waters edge and out from under the canopy?

[mmorris]

Yes, I suppose, but we'd be talking about the tributaries, not the Amazon itself. I honestly don't remember how dark it was! We used flashlights to hunt spiders in the middle of the night, and the guide used a flashlight to locate the camen so we could take a midnight dip. He could see the light reflecting in the eyes, and every time he couldn't locate the eyes, he ordered us out of the water. LOL Life is short.

[tdiscusman]

Yeah its freaking cool!

and my wife likes my discus but i think she looks at it like another woman as I am always babying them and pamperng them I know she gets crazy jealous but I know when they are full grown she will say wow and I will say yeah thats why we discus owners do what we do it makes it all worth the effort and its part of the enjotment and satifaction we get from our hoby she stay at home mom and feeds em whatever I tell her to feed em through the day so I know she has to take an interst in them some what she often makes little coments like did you see this one or that one it seems to be grwoing and did you notice when the fish turns this way or that way it makes the fishys colors look a little diferent well if she was not looking at them how would she know that so she must be observing them some to know all that plus she will tell me which one she thinks is dominate and which one get the most bullyed and so forth make sure they all get a fair share hand feeds the the frozen foods gives em pelets and always around the same time each day so what that say?

but when I am hiome taking such good care of them and spoiling them and watching them for extended period of time boy I know she gets jealous I told her last night I was oing a water change and she said why do you have to God they way you dought on those fish it takes me 20 minutes for an 80% water change now i have gotten that eficient and she knows it man I swear she is jealosu of those fish I can hold her in bed watch tv and still see my discus because there rite there lol lol :D truth be told I love my wife big time but man these fish are certainly do hold my attention they are so pretty and mezmorizing to watch! oh and so is my wife;)

LOL, dm you are so lucky, my wife too get extremely jealous of my discus, she said it's make her blood boil every time she see my discus especially when I'm looking at them. Initially, i've my discus tank in the living room, she can't stand it because she kept catching me glancing at the discus tank when I'm with her, so she make me moved the tank to the study rm.

Tony

[Discus master]

LOL, dm you are so lucky, my wife too get extremely jealous of my discus, she said it's make her blood boil every time she see my discus especially when I'm looking at them. Initially, i've my discus tank in the living room, she can't stand it because she kept catching me glancing at the discus tank when I'm with her, so she make me moved the tank to the study rm.

Tony

Yeah I think if I ever get a man cave all to my self I think the Discus tank will be moved in there, the living room thing is not working out to much, lol. I know she like the fish and thinks they look great but when I am looking at them and not her she gets pretty bent, lol. We have been together for 12 years and we have three kids you would think this sort of thing would have seteled down by now. I mean I am 33 and she is 30 and she still gets jealous I can see of a girl I may be glancing at or a gil checking me out but jealous of my fish! whats that about? I guess she may feel that she is the most beautiful thing to me that shes the only thing that should hold my eye and attention like that but when she sees me studing my fish even if shes doing something else she gives me that look like ok thats enough now, lololo I am lucky enough she feeds them for me she often jokes about making them for dinner one night.......... at least I hope its a joke! :cry: ever see war of the roses?

[Ed13]

Ed - with a sky full of stars and perhaps even some moon - it is posible that enough light is sensed under water by Discus. But what about the trees?



Yes, I've camped in the Peruvian jungle. A bit tough to see much of the sky for the trees though.


Yes, I suppose, but we'd be talking about the tributaries, not the Amazon itself. I honestly don't remember how dark it was! We used flashlights to hunt spiders in the middle of the night, and the guide used a flashlight to locate the camen so we could take a midnight dip. He could see the light reflecting in the eyes, and every time he couldn't locate the eyes, he ordered us out of the water. LOL Life is short.

Thick canopy means very little light will go through day or night. As mentioned before discus would most likely be in tributaries were often the river itself still holds a canopy above it to some extent, albeit thinner than elsewere in the forrest, or among the canopy of the submerged forrest. Which means some light will make it through and/or it'll at least create boudaries between dark and bright areas provided they are in relatively clear water. In an Amazonia with crystal clear waters, I'd have no doubt that they'd be in very iluminated surroundings canopy or not.

Also, Discus are often found in tannin rich waters, so in my eyes it's likely multiple sensory mechanisms are/could be used rather one, at least on wild discus anyways.

[Tito]

So far to me - I think still waters lend the best scenario for the vibration theory.

If they spawn and raise in moving waters I'm at a loss.

Also - do they dig burrows like many other cichlids in the new world and old world?

[joanr]

haha, you guys flatter yourselves. I don't think the ladies are jealous of the fish, they would just rather you spend the bucks on a million other things they want!

[Eddie]

So far to me - I think still waters lend the best scenario for the vibration theory.

If they spawn and raise in moving waters I'm at a loss.

Also - do they dig burrows like many other cichlids in the new world and old world?

No, they dont dig burrows.

[Discus master]

haha, you guys flatter yourselves. I don't think the ladies are jealous of the fish, they would just rather you spend the bucks on a million other things they want!

Oh I do not know my wife has even dressed up for me to get my attention on her. Yes I know she would prefer me to spend on her of course and I do I have to balance out my budget between the kids wife and the fish its like I have several women I am trying to keep content. But the wife is how do I say the Queeen B?? nd she lets me know it lol:D

[Tito]

But the wife is how do I say the Queeen B?? nd she lets me know it lol:D

Who's doesnt?:antlers:

[Discus master]

Who's doesnt?:antlers:

no kidding, I found as long as I give her the attention she needs and dought on her a bit she ease up on the whole discus thing a bit, she did addmit to me last night that she likes the turqs colors well she said that one there, lol and she feeds them by hand and takes the time to observe them so I think she does like em she just dosnt like me liking them and showing more interest in them than her lol lol it is a balencing act to say the least:angel:

[Tito]

As I am now in the process of raising some fry - I made sure that I kept the lights on 24 hours so as not to take any chances with them attaching.

However - if all goes well and this brood makes it past critical stage. I will definitely take a chance with the next brood and let the lights go out and see what happens far as fry attaching.

[Discus master]

As I am now in the process of raising some fry - I made sure that I kept the lights on 24 hours so as not to take any chances with them attaching.

However - if all goes well and this brood makes it past critical stage. I will definitely take a chance with the next brood and let the lights go out and see what happens far as fry attaching.

Yeah a tnk is a lot smaller than the wild open waters of the Amazon you would think that eventually they would be able to find their mom and dad in an aquarium if they can do it amung the tangled root infested river banks of the open waters found their, rite? But perhaps a small night light would not hurt either. I think another reason for lights to be on 24 7 is to keep them eating where at night they slow down and rest if the lights or on it must mean it is day time hence keeping active and eating just a thought.