Question regarding stunted fish??

[Discus master]

This is just a question of me being curious and I am not having issues at all. My fish are all nice and round no pinched fore heads or bellys and their bodies are nice and thick along with eyes proportionate to their size no foot balls here, lol.

I was just wondering at what point do you feel you are out of the woods when it comes to a stunted fish or rather not having a stunted fish? I guess what I mean is, say a discus like in my case are all around that 3, 3.5, and 4 inch range could they still be stunted? if say their conditons were to change?

A 7 month old fish whitch has grown out nicely and now for some reason the owner not taking care of it as well less water changes less good foods and so forth could this fish become stunted? can they still become stunted all the way up untill they are at the point they are fully grown out? or do they get to a point where they have grown enough and it would be highly un likely?

I am thinkink that it is much easier for the younger 1 - 3 month old fish thats this is the more critical point in their lives where stunting is a possibilty or more so of a possibility am just wondering as I sau my fish have none of these problems.

I feed my fish a wide varitey of foods, I use garlic guard from time to time frozen BBS frozen Blood worms and pelets also some discus specific gel foods and I preform 75 - 80% water changes daily and they get feed very very well at least 4 - 6 times daily, hence the large water changes lol. this is more of a satisfy my curiosity thing been thinking about this for some reason. I guess because I want to scale back my water changes at some point and I do not know whne I would be safe to do this, and do I continue to stuff them until fully grwon at 12 months? or when do you scale the feedings back and to what? Thank you all again in advance for any information you can help me with as alwyas I do apreciate it thank you!:D

[mmorris]

I was just wondering at what point do you feel you are out of the woods when it comes to a stunted fish or rather not having a stunted fish? I guess what I mean is, say a discus like in my case are all around that 3, 3.5, and 4 inch range could they still be stunted? if say their conditons were to change?

A 7 month old fish whitch has grown out nicely and now for some reason the owner not taking care of it as well less water changes less good foods and so forth could this fish become stunted? can they still become stunted all the way up untill they are at the point they are fully grown out? or do they get to a point where they have grown enough and it would be highly un likely?

I am thinkink that it is much easier for the younger 1 - 3 month old fish thats this is the more critical point in their lives where stunting is a possibilty or more so of a possibility am just wondering as I sau my fish have none of these problems.

I feed my fish a wide varitey of foods, I use garlic guard from time to time frozen BBS frozen Blood worms and pelets also some discus specific gel foods and I preform 75 - 80% water changes daily and they get feed very very well at least 4 - 6 times daily, hence the large water changes lol. this is more of a satisfy my curiosity thing been thinking about this for some reason. I guess because I want to scale back my water changes at some point and I do not know whne I would be safe to do this, and do I continue to stuff them until fully grwon at 12 months? or when do you scale the feedings back and to what? Thank you all again in advance for any information you can help me with as alwyas I do apreciate it thank you!:D

Discus are most likely to become stunted, or not reach their full potential, when they are very young. Once they are an adult they have reached their full potential and so will not be stunted. They may decline in health, of course, but they cannot become stunted when adult. A 7-month old discus is not an adult and so it has not yet reached its full potential. Yes, a 3-4 inch fish could certainly be stunted and if they have not already reached their full potential, they could still become stunted. I think everyone has a different feeding schedule. I recommend 6-8 times a day for fry and twice a day for adults.

[Discus master]

Discus are most likely to become stunted, or not reach their full potential, when they are very young. Once they are an adult they have reached their full potential and so will not be stunted. They may decline in health, of course, but they cannot become stunted when adult. A 7-month old discus is not an adult and so it has not yet reached its full potential. Yes, a 3-4 inch fish could certainly be stunted and if they have not already reached their full potential, they could still become stunted. I think everyone has a different feeding schedule. I recommend 6-8 times a day for fry and twice a day for adults.

Let me try and ask it another way say a 7 month old discus yet who has not reached their full growth potential yet, culd this fish still develop the foot ball shape of a stunted fish? even though as of this point it has not yet?

By the time they have reached a ertain age I am imagining and growing out fine does the chance of them becoming stunded decline?

an older fish sy 7 months growing out fine is it less likely to become stunted and not need quit as much care as say the 3 or 4 month old discus?

I guess am asking although not full grown but is there a point that a discus get to when say a sub adult where the likely hood of the fish becomming stunted begins to decline and they are not as likely to become stunted?

At what point can you safely say this fish will mre than likely grow out fine and there is no real need to worry as much as you might with a young juvi?

Or is it just as easy for an8 month old discus to become stunted as a 3 or 4 month old discus? I imagine that once the fish reached a certain size you coild propbly feel pretty confident that he will grow out fine, I would thinkk that the juvis are more sensitive that say a sub adult.

its hard to ask this question I know what I want to know but its just comming up with a way to ask that makes sense.

[mmorris]

The only time you can be certain your discus will not become stunted is when it is a fully mature adult. That said, it is easier to stunt a baby than a 7-month old discus. Fry don't have much in the way of body reserves that a larger discus has. You'll feel more comfortable soon. :) I remember when I got my first discus I checked first thing each morning to see if they were all still alive. :o

[Discus master]

The only time you can be certain your discus will not become stunted is when it is a fully mature adult. That said, it is easier to stunt a baby than a 7-month old discus. Fry don't have much in the way of body reserves that a larger discus has. You'll feel more comfortable soon. :) I remember when I got my first discus I checked first thing each morning to see if they were all still alive. :o

Yeah I m like a nervous new father all over again! and I got three girls growing out rite now lol. But I am way picky about my fish what they eat their water chnages there moods everything very concerned I always got an eye on em. I thinkink about setting up a web cam so I can watch them for work, lol. I bet I would not be the first person to have thoguht of that and I am sure there some who have actually done it.:)

[roclement]

I'll throw some more points to discus...is Discus shape predetermined by genetics? If so theoretically stunting a fish for bad shape would only happen as juvies, when they transition from their "oval" shape as babies to "round" juvies/sub-adutls, no?

A fish past the 3.5 inch mark that is not stunted can at that poin be stunted for growth and finage but for shape as well? Granted that finage can add imensily to the overall apperance of roundness in a Discus but once the shape is developed I don't think it can deteriorate back to a bad shape. Same for color, I've seen plenty of stunted fish with strong colors.

Thoughts?

Rodrigo

[DiscusKev]

I'll throw some more points to discus...is Discus shape predetermined by genetics? If so theoretically stunting a fish for bad shape would only happen as juvies, when they transition from their "oval" shape as babies to "round" juvies/sub-adutls, no?

A fish past the 3.5 inch mark that is not stunted can at that poin be stunted for growth and finage but for shape as well? Granted that finage can add imensily to the overall apperance of roundness in a Discus but once the shape is developed I don't think it can deteriorate back to a bad shape. Same for color, I've seen plenty of stunted fish with strong colors.

Thoughts?

Rodrigo

I would say that genetics within a discus plays a big role on the overall appearance, for instance the Altum Flora (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpost.php?p=411893&postcount=2), the offspring shows a perfect symmetry to the parent, but this doesn't mean it can't be stunted. As Martha stated, young discus are more prone to stunting that sub-adults as they have already/almost reached their potential.

Some discus have a 'giant' gene within them, so they may be 3 months old and they are already 3.5", solid and round, however without the correct care given to them, they could be stunted. A discus being stunted occur from the inside where it continues to grow, they can be thick and healthy but they will barely grow, they can still produce healthy beautiful offspring that is even larger than them, its all in the gene.

*A small discus (3.5/4") being stunted could result in continuous pattern/straitions colour growth, but the size will snail. It is noted by their big googly eyes (4 eye count:body size). Referring back to what I said about stunting from the inside, this could mean that the outside appearance for shape could change but not drastically, it has its' limits.

Just my thoughts.

[tdiscusman]

I'll throw my 2 cents in as well. IMO, stunt fish is when fish did not reach its full potential when it has become an adult. So how to determine its full potential? In general an average size of discus is 5" TL. Also, if you have or have seen the parent or know it's lineage and parent/lineage are bigger than 5" then my goal will be to achieved the same size or bigger than the parent/lineage. So how do you know when it's an adult? there's a thread on here that have a guideline for each strains and when they have full grown (need to find it). So at anytime when the discus have not reached it full potential then it can be stunt, by neglect or other reasons.

And for Rod questions:
A fish past the 3.5 inch mark that is not stunted can at that poin be stunted for growth and finage but for shape as well? IMHO, Yes. discus shape is develop through out the life of discus, at young age they developing more on size and shape and as they grow older they develop more in volume and shape will be refine, rounder belly, hump etc.

Granted that finage can add imensily to the overall apperance of roundness in a Discus but once the shape is developed I don't think it can deteriorate back to a bad shape. Same for color, I've seen plenty of stunted fish with strong colors." IMHO, the shape can go backward or deteriorate. If you neglecting discus, their spine could become crooked, hump witter away, belly sunken this will change the shape.

Tony

[Discus master]

I'll throw my 2 cents in as well. IMO, stunt fish is when fish did not reach its full potential when it has become an adult. So how to determine its full potential? In general an average size of discus is 5" TL. Also, if you have or have seen the parent or know it's lineage and parent/lineage are bigger than 5" then my goal will be to achieved the same size or bigger than the parent/lineage. So how do you know when it's an adult? there's a thread on here that have a guideline for each strains and when they have full grown (need to find it). So at anytime when the discus have not reached it full potential then it can be stunt, by neglect or other reasons.

And for Rod questions:
A fish past the 3.5 inch mark that is not stunted can at that poin be stunted for growth and finage but for shape as well? IMHO, Yes. discus shape is develop through out the life of discus, at young age they developing more on size and shape and as they grow older they develop more in volume and shape will be refine, rounder belly, hump etc.

Granted that finage can add imensily to the overall apperance of roundness in a Discus but once the shape is developed I don't think it can deteriorate back to a bad shape. Same for color, I've seen plenty of stunted fish with strong colors." IMHO, the shape can go backward or deteriorate. If you neglecting discus, their spine could become crooked, hump witter away, belly sunken this will change the shape.

Tony

Yeah thats a tuff one I think I was basically asking in terms of stunted fish I would think it is more critical to provide tip top quality care in the early months and although not fully grown if the care was say slacked on by the 7 month i would not think this would be a serious etermen at that point as it would have been if the fish was young does that make sense? I am not talking a total neglectfulness but instead of 4 - 6 feeding a day i am saying just 2 or 3 nd water change once a week by the time 7 months would roll around I do not think it would have had such a harsh impact on the fish if it were growing out properly untill this point thats is as oppse to someone doing this with their 2 month old I think it wouold have a larger impact on such a young fish. The larger fish could probalbly handle the neglect and still look good in moderation than say a baby discus not cared for from the begining.

[nc0gnet0]

Just another note. Sometimes stunting is a result of bad genes and has nothing to do with water quality, food intake etc. We have all heard the term "runt of the litter" when talking about puppies, the same can happen with Discus.

I inheritted a stunted fish from another simply member. The fish was purchased as a juvie from a very well respective sponsor in a group of I believe ten fish. All the rest grew out or are in the process of growing out (there not quite a year yet)nicely, some begining to aproach 6", and this little guy never made it past three inches, although he has a ravenous appetite and a good thick body, marvelous color, and even good shape if you ignore the large eyes.

I keep him because he looks nice and is great with Juvies, seems to put them at ease a bit and they are alot less skitish at all. I am sure others on here would have culled him, but his interaction with the younger fish has value to me.

[joshuajames]

does anybody have pics of stunted fish they can post?

[DiscusKev]

does anybody have pics of stunted fish they can post?

This will give you an idea of stunted discus

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=46982

And here is the link to identify stunted discus (well eye count)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=49201

hope this helps,

[tdiscusman]

Yeah thats a tuff one I think I was basically asking in terms of stunted fish I would think it is more critical to provide tip top quality care in the early months and although not fully grown if the care was say slacked on by the 7 month i would not think this would be a serious etermen at that point as it would have been if the fish was young does that make sense? I am not talking a total neglectfulness but instead of 4 - 6 feeding a day i am saying just 2 or 3 nd water change once a week by the time 7 months would roll around I do not think it would have had such a harsh impact on the fish if it were growing out properly untill this point thats is as oppse to someone doing this with their 2 month old I think it wouold have a larger impact on such a young fish. The larger fish could probalbly handle the neglect and still look good in moderation than say a baby discus not cared for from the begining.

DM, in this case, the larger it is the less likely it will become stunt. You can slack off when you notice discus is no longer eating as much or as aggressive and growth has slowed down, which normally around 5-7 months

Tony

[tdiscusman]

Just another note. Sometimes stunting is a result of bad genes and has nothing to do with water quality, food intake etc. We have all heard the term "runt of the litter" when talking about puppies, the same can happen with Discus.

I inheritted a stunted fish from another simply member. The fish was purchased as a juvie from a very well respective sponsor in a group of I believe ten fish. All the rest grew out or are in the process of growing out (there not quite a year yet)nicely, some begining to aproach 6", and this little guy never made it past three inches, although he has a ravenous appetite and a good thick body, marvelous color, and even good shape if you ignore the large eyes.

I keep him because he looks nice and is great with Juvies, seems to put them at ease a bit and they are alot less skitish at all. I am sure others on here would have culled him, but his interaction with the younger fish has value to me.

Agreed, this fish is probably the lowest in the pecking order and are being bully by other fishes. there are few of those in any litter/brood.

Tony

[Jhhnn]

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that young domestic discus who don't get optimal conditions for any extended period of time will basically quit growing, or grow more slowly. It grades across 3 scenarios- optimal growth, sub optimal growth, and fish that won't grow at all. The window of opportunity for growth seems to be their first 18 months of life, at most, more like the first year. No amount of effort by the hobbyist will change that, unfortunately.

The whole thing depends largely on what the hobbyist wants to achieve and on what they're willing to do to get it. In my head, discus are *supposed to be* 6"-7" fish at maturity, larger if possible. Getting that last inch of growth requires a running start and what amounts to a very large amount of food, because it's not really about length, but rather volume or weight.

In very rough terms, a discus with a body length of 4" by 1" thick would have a volume of 16 cubic inches. A discus with a body length of 5" and proportional thickness of 1.2" would have a volume of 30 cubic inches, almost twice as much... a very large discus with a body length of 6", 1.5" thick would have a volume of 54 cubic inches...

Different strains have different growth potential, for sure, but if you want them to be big, don't let off on the heavy feeding and water changes until they're 18 months old or so...

Just my opinion, based on my limited experience...

[nc0gnet0]

Agreed, this fish is probably the lowest in the pecking order and are being bully by other fishes. there are few of those in any litter/brood.

Tony

While I cannot say for sure as I did not have the fish the first 6 or so months, I don't think that was the case at all. the little guy is a very aggresive eater, always getting his share, and not intimidated by other bigger fish in the least.

I am not discounting the fact the juvies need optimal conditions for maximum growth, but rather adding that some fish, even given optimal conditions, are pre-dispositioned to stunt due to genetics.

[Eddie]

While I cannot say for sure as I did not have the fish the first 6 or so months, I don't think that was the case at all. the little guy is a very aggresive eater, always getting his share, and not intimidated by other bigger fish in the least.

I am not discounting the fact the juvies need optimal conditions for maximum growth, but rather adding that some fish, even given optimal conditions, are pre-dispositioned to stunt due to genetics.

Very true, these are runts.

[joanr]

Given that a fish had all the proper care from fryhood on up, and in fact has a nice round shape, perfect small eyes in proportion to the body but never gets larger than say 4.5 to 5" OAL, then what would be the problem besides a genetic pre-disposition to being just a small size discus? I have a RGD that is nice in every way but I doubt will ever get past 5". It's in great health, eats well, isn't bullied by others, (yes, it's been wormed ) it's just small. I think of it as my mini discus. It's very cute but only saucer size...lol.

[Eddie]

Given that a fish had all the proper care from fryhood on up, and in fact has a nice round shape, perfect small eyes in proportion to the body but never gets larger than say 4.5 to 5" OAL, then what would be the problem besides a genetic pre-disposition to being just a small size discus? I have a RGD that is nice in every way but I doubt will ever get past 5". It's in great health, eats well, isn't bullied by others, (yes, it's been wormed ) it's just small. I think of it as my mini discus. It's very cute but only saucer size...lol.

But then again, the golden gene is a bit different. They can take longer to develop/grow slower. That RGD may have a growth spurt down the road.

Eddie

[joanr]

Hate to say this, but I like it's smaller size. Some of those big dinner plates look kinda intimidating to me. My CT scares me sometimes, it's just too huge. If I had to net it, I'd have to go buy a 10" net. But I'm thinking the RGD is probably about 9 months old by now, if it does get bigger it won't be by much.

[Jennie]

[QUOTE=Eddie;665933]But then again, the golden gene is a bit different. They can take longer to develop/grow slower. That RGD may have a growth spurt down the road.

the problem lies too right from the start with stunted growth from the hatchery.
so from the time it leaves the parents to the time it reaches your door, you can't really be sure how it was cared for. I bet the problem would be greater in larger operations that have hundreds of tanks to manage rather than the smalltime hobbyist who's only managing several tanks. That based on water quality, proper feeding etc.. and not genetic faults.
I also wonder what percentage of poor quality fish aren't culled from the tanks in said operations, that really should go to the pet shops but end up being sold as top notch?

[Eddie]

Hate to say this, but I like it's smaller size. Some of those big dinner plates look kinda intimidating to me. My CT scares me sometimes, it's just too huge. If I had to net it, I'd have to go buy a 10" net. But I'm thinking the RGD is probably about 9 months old by now, if it does get bigger it won't be by much.

LOL, that CT sounds like a beast! Gotta use a fishing net for that sucker. :D For the RGD though, 9 months is just coming of age. It can still grow until about 16 months. ;) Well, unless the CT eats it! :o

[joanr]

[QUOTE=Eddie;665933]But then again, the golden gene is a bit different. They can take longer to develop/grow slower. That RGD may have a growth spurt down the road.

the problem lies too right from the start with stunted growth from the hatchery.
so from the time it leaves the parents to the time it reaches your door, you can't really be sure how it was cared for. I bet the problem would be greater in larger operations that have hundreds of tanks to manage rather than the smalltime hobbyist who's only managing several tanks. That based on water quality, proper feeding etc.. and not genetic faults.
I also wonder what percentage of poor quality fish aren't culled from the tanks in said operations, that really should go to the pet shops but end up being sold as top notch?

Yes, most of us buying fish that are 3" and months old, we can only trust in the seller that the fish have been properly cared for before reaching us. I've had mostly great results with the juvies I've bought from sponsers here. But this is a business also, so volume along with quality must be achieved for successful transactions and satisfied customers. I've never received a fish from a sponser here that would be anything close to what we see at the LFS. I think also that many hobbyist breeders can devote more time and energy to their stock, but for whatever reasons, here in Colorado there just are not that many folks breeding top notch discus that are available to the public.

[DerekFF]

Heres my 2 cents........you all have some good cents!!! Your guys 2 cents are probly worth at least 5 of mine :-) Good topic

[Discus master]

WoW I really started a debate, lol I had only wanted to ask a few questions did not relize I was starting a huge round table discusion. I am glad I did though because I have learned a few thing, like I had no idea that some strains grew out slower than others. I had just assumed that they all grew out the same dependant upon conditions of course.:D

[Discus master]

DM, in this case, the larger it is the less likely it will become stunt. You can slack off when you notice discus is no longer eating as much or as aggressive and growth has slowed down, which normally around 5-7 months

Tony

Thank you I think this is what i was looking for, my fish are around the 3 - 3.5 inch mark with my first two purchased at about 4 inches. The larger ones bodies are getting thicker and all are looking good thus far so I will keep up with what I have been doing. Heck its rutine now and I do not even mind it I take pride in my fish and how I take care of hem to skip say one water change wold propbaly have me mising some sleep as I lay thinking about it. It is so common place for me now to water change and feed, I do not even count the number of times I feed a day I just now I am always doing it as long as their eating it and they are. Then I am doing my 75 - 80% water change and al is well. When I cane ease up on the feeding and water changing schdule it will take me a period of adjustment I think more so than the fish. But I must be doing somethin rite for them to be doing well, I do have one who is definatley at the bottom of the pecking order and he is not the smallest which I find odd its more about attitude and agresivness I suppose this ones more timid but I feed heavy enough that he is still getting his fill just not as much as the other so I supliment with a wide variety of diet and I am hopping for the best with him so far so good. Thank you all for your input and in sight it means a lot to a new commer and its just more knowledg under my belt that I take with me into the hobby and my fish are showing great health and growth because of it. One certainly has to do their home work and follow thru if they want to be sucseful with discus. My fish are like pigs with fins I like that statment so true.

[Jhhnn]

Hate to say this, but I like it's smaller size. Some of those big dinner plates look kinda intimidating to me. My CT scares me sometimes, it's just too huge. If I had to net it, I'd have to go buy a 10" net. But I'm thinking the RGD is probably about 9 months old by now, if it does get bigger it won't be by much.

If the CT gets too scary, I'll come haul him away... for a fee, of course... :D

Nice to read that your charges are doing well...

[tdiscusman]

While I cannot say for sure as I did not have the fish the first 6 or so months, I don't think that was the case at all. the little guy is a very aggresive eater, always getting his share, and not intimidated by other bigger fish in the least.

I am not discounting the fact the juvies need optimal conditions for maximum growth, but rather adding that some fish, even given optimal conditions, are pre-dispositioned to stunt due to genetics.

Agreed that some discus are small due to genetics, I've heard that San Merah also doesn't grow very big. You could be right that the discus that you have doesn't grow as big as the others is due to genetics. However, IMHO most of the time it's environmental factors like being bully or setback somewhere in their life.

Tony

[Jhhnn]

I'm sure some varieties are smaller- Golden based fish have that reputation, although I've never owned any to establish the truth of that. Many of the classic varieties are genetically capable of becoming large, because breeders have the luxury of selecting for that quality in their breeding stock. All things being equal, they'll select the larger faster growing youngsters for future breeding. It only makes sense. Many cobalt, turq, snakeskin and blue diamond lines have the genetics to become large. Kenny offered some 8" snakeskins last year, and I'm sure they were every bit of what they were represented to be... Some of Wayne Ng's fish are capable of becoming very large, because he bred them to be that way...

It's not quite like domestic canines, which range in size from teacup poodles to newfs and mastiffs, but it could be, if breeders have the generational time and incentive...

[nc0gnet0]

Ahh, but why is larger than normal better than smaller than normal, all other things being equal?

In dog shows there is a standard, with either being a fault. Does a 8" discus live longer and generally more healthy that a 5.5" discus?

[Eddie]

Ahh, but why is larger than normal better than smaller than normal, all other things being equal?

In dog shows there is a standard, with either being a fault. Does a 8" discus live longer and generally more healthy that a 5.5" discus?


Its just the way it is, size is part of the grading criteria. Unless size gets removed from the criteria, it will always affect the final score.

[Discus master]

I'm sure some varieties are smaller- Golden based fish have that reputation, although I've never owned any to establish the truth of that. Many of the classic varieties are genetically capable of becoming large, because breeders have the luxury of selecting for that quality in their breeding stock. All things being equal, they'll select the larger faster growing youngsters for future breeding. It only makes sense. Many cobalt, turq, snakeskin and blue diamond lines have the genetics to become large. Kenny offered some 8" snakeskins last year, and I'm sure they were every bit of what they were represented to be... Some of Wayne Ng's fish are capable of becoming very large, because he bred them to be that way...

It's not quite like domestic canines, which range in size from teacup poodles to newfs and mastiffs, but it could be, if breeders have the generational time and incentive...

That is good because this is what I own, ss, red turq, blue turq, cobalt, blue diamond all 6 of the ones I own fall within these strains, so hopefully if I have the clasics which I had no idea thats what I was picking out then maybe I can get them to grow out to be monsters like 7+ inches like I want:D

I picked these out at the breeders and there were tons of strains I guess it is safe to say I like the clasics with out even knowing it and being new to the hobby. I am hopping if these trains have been around for a long time then they the breeders would have had plenty of time to prefect them so hopefully then I made a good choice in mine:D

[Jhhnn]

Ahh, but why is larger than normal better than smaller than normal, all other things being equal?

In dog shows there is a standard, with either being a fault. Does a 8" discus live longer and generally more healthy that a 5.5" discus?

I think people keep discus, in part, because they're big, flashy fish. Within that context, bigger is better, and it's not like they become entirely too big to be practical, like pacus, gouramis, and some plecos... some catfish, too. Some of those cute little catfish can turn into a real horror story- they're nocturnal predators, with deceptively large mouths, so their tankmates just seem to disappear overnight... Gulp! Lots of "free to good home" ads for them in Craigslist when they've grown up...

And I could never figure out why anybody wanted a pacu, anyway, but to each their own, right?

[nc0gnet0]

Don't get me wrong, I think the big fish are great, but at what point is it "too big". I also think some perfectly conformed 3" discus might be kinda cool too, like the dwarf gourami's.

But for show purposes and judging, it seems there should be a standard adopted. I understand there seems to be a general consensus, but I don't think it is refined as say the standards used for judging dogs.

[DiscusKev]

Some big discus may lose their attractiveness if their shape is not up to scratch. If it is big (fleshy/chunky) and round, then it would be very nice in a show tank. I wouldn't mind having an 8" TL discus in my tank, but having 5 8" TL discus would be quite spooky lol.

hope I did not lose the plot :D

[nc0gnet0]

I guess what I am getting at is that if we keep breeding with the bigger is better mantra in mind, how long until we see 10" fish as being big and the 8" fish as being the norm?

[DiscusKev]

I guess what I am getting at is that if we keep breeding with the bigger is better mantra in mind, how long until we see 10" fish as being big and the 8" fish as being the norm?

Not too long I guess, everything is improving, size, shape, colour, pattern/straitions, eye size.etc

[Jhhnn]

I guess what I am getting at is that if we keep breeding with the bigger is better mantra in mind, how long until we see 10" fish as being big and the 8" fish as being the norm?

I think it'll be a very long time. Very few domestic discus exceed the maximum size of their wild cousins- witness Dale Jordan's Solomons. If mature wild discus range from 5" to 8", then their domestic cousins can exist towards the upper end of the range, if size is one criteria for the breeder... a few will be larger, but they're still exceptional, and may not pass that on to their offspring as a general rule.

It took a very long time, hundreds of years, to create domestic canine varieties, particularly the larger and smaller ones. Dogs and discus can breed at about the same age, so it'd be tough to accelerate the development of any characteristic via selective breeding alone. Much of what we see in domestic discus coloration is the result of that, but also of exploiting mutations. Obviously, mutations are more likely in a brood of hundreds of fry vs a litter of 8-10 puppies... and discus genetics are extremely complex, highly variable-

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v102/n5/abs/hdy20093a.html

Not that I pretend to understand that completely...

10" discus? Kewl... I want a tankful, a very big tank full of 'em...

[joanr]

OMG John, it would be like looking at a tank full of Flounder, only nicer coloring....lol. Your guys are big enough don't ya think? Your BS's are just perfect size.

[snowflake311]

But could the word stunted be just an over used word? There will always be runts and genetics always plays a big part in how large any animal can get. Yes other things like the right food and stress can effect growth. It makes me think with all this line breeding could these "stunted" fish just be genetic?

Don't fish need to be kept in poor condition for a long time for any real stunting to take place?

[nc0gnet0]

There is a difference between stunted and a runt.

[snowflake311]

Yes. But its a fine line between runt and stunt.

[Eddie]

Don't fish need to be kept in poor condition for a long time for any real stunting to take place?


Not at all. The age of the fish is very important. If you have fry/juveniles that are not raised properly (fed incorrectly or not fed with the right foods), they can become stunted. It doesn't take long at all.

Its not just keeping the fish in poor conditions, its a combination of things.

Eddie

[snowflake311]

By poor conditions I ment bad water, lack of food, stress from enviroment or take mates. I use " poor conditions as a general term. So how long will it take for the damage to be done? A week a month or many months.

I have these uaru I rescued from people that let them get really bad HITH. They are 5-6" now I have had them 3 months the hith is all better they are Doing great. These people Got them at 3-4" had them for maybe 6 months or less. Do you think my uaru are stunted? I don't think they will get over 6".

[nc0gnet0]

Yes. But its a fine line between runt and stunt.

Visually, maybe (depends on one's perspective).

But genetically there is a world of difference.

A runt is genetically pe-dispositioned to be a small fish. No amount of pristine conditions/proper diet is going to change that.

A stunted fish is a fish that had the potential genetically to be a normal sized fish, however, it's enviromental conditions/diet, kept him from developing to his/her full potential.

[Eddie]

By poor conditions I ment bad water, lack of food, stress from enviroment or take mates. I use " poor conditions as a general term. So how long will it take for the damage to be done? A week a month or many months.

I have these uaru I rescued from people that let them get really bad HITH. They are 5-6" now I have had them 3 months the hith is all better they are Doing great. These people Got them at 3-4" had them for maybe 6 months or less. Do you think my uaru are stunted? I don't think they will get over 6".

Okay, so your definition of poor conditions and not very long. There really isn't an exact amount of days to say a fish will become stunted.