eyes?

[snowflake311]

OK so I have been reading alot about eye size in discus. I thought it was funny how important it seems to be in these fish. I understand the Idea behind fish with bigger eyes are runts or might be stunted. BUT when you see wild caught discus they always seem to have bigger eyes. So it makes me think. Is this small eye thing more a "breed standard". I read discus are now being bred to have smaller eyes. It was also said that older strains tend to have larger eyes? Personaly I think larger eyes are cute and think it is silly to breed these fish to have smaller eyes.

So any input? What do you think?

I read the great sticky on eye size here.

"On many of the newer strains of domestic discus the eye count is now heading around 9 to 9 1/2. In the older strains and wilds then 7 1/2 "eyes" is considered correct. It was Jack Wattley that originated this measure. "

So this Mr. Wattley desided what size eyes discus should have?

[DiscusKev]

Good to know that you are doing a lot of reading :)

Yes, discus in the far east tend to have a smaller eye size in proportion to the body, small eyes tend to be more attractive and it is true that wild discus have larger eyes, but this doesn't mean that they are stunted.

I personally like small eyes than large eyes, this is my opinion.

[Keith Perkins]

Jack Wattley is one of the most respected original discus collectors/breeders/researchers in the world. He was one of the first people to provide information that made it possible for the rest of us to keep these wonderful creatures back in the day. He didn't decide what size eyes discus should have, but collected tons of data on what was normal and reported on it, educating many of the rest of us. 25 years ago if you didn't know of Jack Wattley, you didn't know jack about discus either.

Large eyes are often indicators that a discus has at some point in it's young life been seriously underfed and is now permanently stunted. It doesn't affect the fishes color, or owner perceived cuteness, but it does mean it will never be nearly as big as it could have been if it was treated properly. I'm sure more can be said on the topic, but I hope this helps explain a little more about large eyes and who Jack Wattley is.

[Jennie]

What if it's a juvie and has large eyes?


Jack Wattley is one of the most respected original discus collectors/breeders/researchers in the world. He was one of the first people to provide information that made it possible for the rest of us to keep these wonderful creatures back in the day. He didn't decide what size eyes discus should have, but collected tons of data on what was normal and reported on it, educating many of the rest of us. 25 years ago if you didn't know of Jack Wattley, you didn't know jack about discus either.

Large eyes are often indicators that a discus has at some point in it's young life been seriously underfed and is now permanently stunted. It doesn't affect the fishes color, or owner perceived cuteness, but it does mean it will never be nearly as big as it could have been if it was treated properly. I'm sure more can be said on the topic, but I hope this helps explain a little more about large eyes and who Jack Wattley is.

[Double Up]

Jack Wattley is one of the most respected original discus collectors/breeders/researchers in the world. He was one of the first people to provide information that made it possible for the rest of us to keep these wonderful creatures back in the day. He didn't decide what size eyes discus should have, but collected tons of data on what was normal and reported on it, educating many of the rest of us. 25 years ago if you didn't know of Jack Wattley, you didn't know jack about discus either.

Large eyes are often indicators that a discus has at some point in it's young life been seriously underfed and is now permanently stunted. It doesn't affect the fishes color, or owner perceived cuteness, but it does mean it will never be nearly as big as it could have been if it was treated properly. I'm sure more can be said on the topic, but I hope this helps explain a little more about large eyes and who Jack Wattley is.

Well said !

[Jennie]

so will a juvie with big eyes grow into them? I have one and was curious

What if it's a juvie and has large eyes?

[Keith Perkins]

What if it's a juvie and has large eyes?

There are several possibilities, as I said earlier it's often an indicator that the fish has been severely underfed and the damage has been done. Young fish need to be fed the most, so the odds of them being underfed at this stage of their life is probably the greatest. Another thing that I've heard of happening is that the fish isn't even actually a juvie, but an adult so severely stunted that it was sold as a juvie. 3 1/2 inch fish should be juvies, but I heard of some 3 1/2 inch "juvies" just the other day that spawned. In other words the fish were actually severely stunted adults. It's also possible I suppose you would have an unusual strain that has large eyes, or that you have an odd fish that has them, but those wouldn't be the most likely possibilities.

[DiscusKev]

so will a juvie with big eyes grow into them? I have one and was curious

Unfortunately no, big eyes remains big eyes, no matter how big they grow.

[Keith Perkins]

Well said !

Thanks, but saying good things about Jack Wattley comes pretty easy. :)


Unfortunately no, big eyes remains big eyes, no matter how big they grow.

+1

[William Palumbo]

You will notice wild Discus have big eyes. Not all, but are pretty common to find a larger eye size on a wild Discus. Maybe from stunting, maybe for survival...Bill

[tdiscusman]

eyes size only apply to adult discus and not juvenile, fry have large eyes and as they grow the body catching up to the eyes (please show me a 2.5"-3" juvenile that have 7 1/2 eyes ratio).

The question here is when do this 7 1/2" to 9 1/2" eye ratios start to apply? Can we start apply this rule when discus are 12 months/18 months of age? Or we start to apply based on size of the discus, say at 4.5" in size? I'm looking people opinions on this.

Thanks
Tony

[snowflake311]

eyes size only apply to adult discus and not juvenile, fry have large eyes and as they grow the body catching up to the eyes (please show me a 2.5"-3" juvenile that have 7 1/2 eyes ratio).

The question here is when do this 7 1/2" to 9 1/2" eye ratios start to apply? Can we start apply this rule when discus are 12 months/18 months of age? Or we start to apply based on size of the discus, say at 4.5" in size? I'm looking people opinions on this.

Thanks
Tony

THATS what I thought! I have been keeping larger Cichlids for a few years now. My Wild caught true parrot has big eyes but seems to be growing into them. When you look at oscars they have cute big eyes when young and grow in to them.

Great question I too want to see what others have to say to this.

[tdiscusman]

THATS what I thought! I have been keeping larger Cichlids for a few years now. My Wild caught true parrot has big eyes but seems to be growing into them. When you look at oscars they have cute big eyes when young and grow in to them.

Great question I too want to see what others have to say to this.

This apply to most animals including human. Human baby born with pupil the same size as adult, ie size of pupil in human do not change as one grow.

I'm thinking, we can create eyes size guide for discus at different sizes starting at 2". For example at 2" it should have ratio of 5 1/2 etc.

Tony

[DiscusKev]

eyes size only apply to adult discus and not juvenile, fry have large eyes and as they grow the body catching up to the eyes (please show me a 2.5"-3" juvenile that have 7 1/2 eyes ratio).

Non-extreme bulldog (high fin, high body) has a pretty close good eye size count, but has a shorter looking body, so does that still count as 2.5-3"? :o:p;) (sarcasm)

It is hard to compare human with discus, in this scenario anyway, but I agree with you, it could only apply to discus at a certain age, but would it not be common sense to think that it is? It is like saying a baby can lift up 10KG of weights with 1 arm. You will know when a discus has irregular looking eyes if you follow the guideline, or you could tell using logic to think that something is not right.

not trying to start a debate/flame discussion.

[tdiscusman]

...
but I agree with you, it could only apply to discus at a certain age, but would it not be common sense to think that it is?
...

Since DL65 was concerned whit his Juvie having large eyes, I just thought I mentioned that the rule only apply to large discus.

Tony

[Jennie]

yes I got my answer. juvies do not grow into large eyes


Since DL65 was concerned whit his Juvie having large eyes, I just thought I mentioned that the rule only apply to large discus.

Tony

[Keith Perkins]

eyes size only apply to adult discus and not juvenile, fry have large eyes and as they grow the body catching up to the eyes (please show me a 2.5"-3" juvenile that have 7 1/2 eyes ratio).

Tony - you bring up some very good points and show once again how I have a bad habit of not typing exactly what I mean. Jack Wattley's published findings on eye size almost undoubtly refered to adult fish. I only say almost undoubtly because I'm not at home where I could look it up easily. When I responded to DiscusLover I had in mind larger juvie fish, of the 3 1/2 inch range and up. Hence my reference to the 3 1/2 inch fish sold as juvies that suddenly spawned. I'm not sure exactly when the 7 1/2 to 1 ratio becomes true, and I'm sure it probably varies a little by strain and standard of care etc., but I would say it is pre-adult. There comes the next rub, what is adult. I'm sure there are differing opinions on this too, but to me it is when they reach spawing age. When the fish reaches this age and has big eyes, it undoubtly had the big eyes before too.


The question here is when do this 7 1/2" to 9 1/2" eye ratios start to apply? Can we start apply this rule when discus are 12 months/18 months of age? Or we start to apply based on size of the discus, say at 4.5" in size? I'm looking people opinions on this.

You won't get an exact answer from anyone on your second question because there are just too many variables; strains, feeding, WCs, etc. Given my example of the 3 1/2 inch fish spawning however, I'd say it's probably safe to say that a given age would be a better measure of when to apply the rule than length.

[kaceyo]

While the 7.5 to 9.5 ratio on eye stacking only applies to adults, if you know what the "norm" is for growing discus you can see problems starting in very young fish. If a discus that is only 1" and is 1 mo old starts getting very poor care, much of the time you'll be able to see it in the eye size soon after.

[tdiscusman]

While the 7.5 to 9.5 ratio on eye stacking only applies to adults, if you know what the "norm" is for growing discus you can see problems starting in very young fish. If a discus that is only 1" and is 1 mo old starts getting very poor care, much of the time you'll be able to see it in the eye size soon after.

Hi Kacey,
I agreed with you that, with experience, one can tell if juvies are growing normally or not. However, with newbie this is not always obvious.

Tony

[tdiscusman]

...
You won't get an exact answer from anyone on your second answer, because there are just too many variables, strains, feeding, WCs, etc. Given my example of the 3 1/2 inch fish spawning however, I'd say it's probably safe to say that a given age would be a better measure of when to apply the rule than length.

I understand that there are many variables thus I'm not looking for definite answer, just wanted to hear other people opinions.

Thank you for your opinion, your, going with age, make sense.

Tony

[Willie]

We may be splitting hairs between 7.5 and 9.5. I've never seen discus with such small eyes anyway.

Stunting has clearly occurred in discus where the diameter of the eye are 1:4 or 1:5 compared to the head height. You see a lot of discus like this that were raised in planted tanks. These fish will never grow into the correct proportion.

Willie