White sand

[captainandy]

Is there a brand or source of white sand that people use in their wild tanks.

Want to change substrate from the black I have.

Thanks

[nanook]

I am using pool filter sand. It is silica sand and does not affect the Ph.

[Discus-Hans]

I use pool filter sand too, cheap, as you know I'm Dutch so it has to be cheap lol. And you know what?? The lady from the pool store wants Discus, setting up her tank and.......... some times you see those broken sand bags, they can't sell them, they call me to PLEASE pick them up........ told you Dutch ===> cheap lol

Good thing from the pool filter sand, it's a little "heavier" as normal sand, you don't vacume too much out when you clean and if you do see.......... it's cheap lol, just add some new,

Hans

[DonMD]

I am using pool filter sand. It is silica sand and does not affect the Ph.

+1

[Apistomaster]

Pool filter sand is 99.4% pure silica dioxide(SiO2) and has a specific gravity of 2.6.
The specific gravity is how many times an equal unit volume of the sand is to the same volume of water. So pool filter sand weighs 2.6 times as much as water. This is fairly dense and what makes hydrovacuuming the sand used in an aquarium relatively easy without removing much sand, No sand at all needs to be lost if the suction is carefully moderated to suit a given thickness of the substrate.

[RudeDogg1]

Isnt pool filter sand realy dusty yellowy / orange with grains the size of ganulated sugar? (it was when we used to use it in fur seal and penguin filters) it was horrible

[Jennie]

It's pure white and the best I used yet. Fur Seal??

[RudeDogg1]

yep from my zoo keeper days, must of been different filtersand we used then because it was horrible and def not white lol

[Crockett]

I want to use pool sand in my tank which is drilled and I use a sump wet dry filter. The tank is 175 gallons and the sump which is a 50 gallon tank, works really great, but I’m don’t want to put in the labor of switching out the gravel for sand, only to discover that the sand will get sucked up an end up in the sump from time to time. Can anyone advise on whether I should be Ok or not.

Dave

[akumastew]

I was also looking at switching to white sand.

The only thing I could find locally was this

http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/SandCommercialGrade.asp

I was told they replaced the Silica with quartz, as silica was bad for people.

Has anyone used this product?

Apistomaster, I remember a that you had a post on a system you developed to be rid of the bad gas build up. I couldn't find it, could you share the link for me?

[vera]

I use pool filter sand too,

Good thing from the pool filter sand, it's a little "heavier" as normal sand, you don't vacume too much out when you clean and if you do see.......... it's cheap lol, just add some new,

Hans


+1, as cheap as can be , no washing just replace removed during wc :)

[Discus Origins]

I want to use pool sand in my tank which is drilled and I use a sump wet dry filter. The tank is 175 gallons and the sump which is a 50 gallon tank, works really great, but I’m don’t want to put in the labor of switching out the gravel for sand, only to discover that the sand will get sucked up an end up in the sump from time to time. Can anyone advise on whether I should be Ok or not.

Dave

I have two 90 gallon tanks set up with wet/dry filtration systems with white sand. If you rinse the sand before you put it in the tank and then turn the pump off while you add the sand until its settled in the bottom, you'll have no problems with sand going into the sump.

[Jennie]

quickrete is not the same. Go to your local spa place and get pool filter sand.

QUOTE
was also looking at switching to white sand.

The only thing I could find locally was this

http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines...rcialGrade.asp

I was told they replaced the Silica with quartz, as silica was bad for people.

Has anyone used this product?

Apistomaster, I remember a that you had a post on a system you developed to be rid of the bad gas build up. I couldn't find it, could you share the link for me?
__________________

[Discus-Hans]

I want to use pool sand in my tank which is drilled and I use a sump wet dry filter. The tank is 175 gallons and the sump which is a 50 gallon tank, works really great, but I’m don’t want to put in the labor of switching out the gravel for sand, only to discover that the sand will get sucked up an end up in the sump from time to time. Can anyone advise on whether I should be Ok or not.

Dave

Dave, sand is always better as gravel, gravel is a dirt collector, with sand dirt stays on top.

We have a layer of pool filter sand in our wild tanks, now cleaning the tanks is not my problem lol lol got a help for that, but if with cleaning some sand goes into the drain, just refill it now and than.

The sand is to heavy to go trough my overflow into the filter system,

Hans

[yikesjason]

The color of the sand depends on the location it is quarried. There are cheaper sources than pool sand even. It is not as common now because of the lung cancer dangers of silica, but some industrial supply places will still carry silica or quartz sand. I recently bought a 100 lbs bag from Knife River.

[tcyiu]

The color of the sand depends on the location it is quarried. There are cheaper sources than pool sand even. It is not as common now because of the lung cancer dangers of silica, but some industrial supply places will still carry silica or quartz sand. I recently bought a 100 lbs bag from Knife River.

Quartz is silica. Silica is quartz.

Manufactured sand is hazardous because the dust has sharp edges and lodges in your lungs just like asbestos.

Natural sand is rounded and does not pose the same hazard.

Like Jason sez, sand colour is function of where it is quarried (i.e. what trace minerals are in the SiO2). NOT all pool filter sand is the same colour.

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/quartz_silica/basic_qua.html

Tim

[Apistomaster]

Prolonged exposure to dry silica dust is hazardous but after washed and used wet it is safe sand to use since it isn't dusty. The colors may various depending on small amounts of other trace minerals.

I did attempt to install a system of perforated pipes in my silica sand but I eventually had to remove it and just periodically vacuum the sand to keep it fresh.
My idea was not a bad one but it needs some engineering improvements to make it work as well as I intended. I would cover my perforated pipes with a fine geotextile next time.
I would use 3/8" inside diameter instead of the 1/2" PVC I tried.

There are a a variety of intakes used for wet dry filters. I use overflow siphons far above the sand so no sand can enter the system. For those who have drilled bottom intakes the intakes must be a couple inches higher than the sand to prevent any sand from being taken into the system. Lane Mountain brand of filter sand is guaranteed to be 99.4% pure silica dioxide and their quarry is located in NE corner of the State of Washington but many other sources are also very good.

Many sands may be used in sand filters but some are better for some applications than others, some use garnet sand because it is more dense(higher SpG than quartz but I have tried Garnet sands and it looks great but is so dense plant roots have great difficulty penetrating the grain spaces. Beach sand can be used for marine systems.
Each sand is washed then sieved to obtain graded sizes best suited for different applications. White or nearly white pool filter sand from pool maintenance supply companies is usually the best although sand blasting supply companies also sell a suitable silica dioxide sand.

[tolga]

Hello Apistomaster. I never got to thank you for your brilliant reply to my previous post about keeping heckels in the living room environment. I am still working on some ideas but I still have few more months of building work around the house to contend with. on the subject of fine White sand, I have been wondering as to how I can possibly avoid the formation of black areas under the sand. I have inherited a good quality under soil heater from my planted aquarium days. Can I use these heating coils under a layer of fine White sand to create convection currents to keep the sand sweet as it were? I wonder if the sand would be too dense for the heated water to rise up? In certain areas of the tank the dept of the sandy bottom may reach 3 inches as part of the aquascape. If the coils could work, that would be a real bonus. Alternatively, would a reverse flow undergravel filter plate covered with the kind of screen you have mentioned be any good. I know I can avoid all this simply by the use of my hands or a long stick to turn the sand over from time to time, but I am after a more long term solution that would work even when I am not around for few weeks. I don't think Malaysian snails would work in a low ph tank and I don't find them that desirable. Horseface loaches have been suggested but they are not appropriate for the heckel biotope + they might disturb the aquascape. I'll appretiate any suggestions. Thanks.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Tolga,

The problem of poor diffusion let alone circulation of oxygenated water increases with the decreasing fineness of the sand. Best to use a thinner layer and use transparent pots with quality plant substrate and subsoil fertilizer to obtain amazing growth. I use a 2 liter clear plastic juice bottle bottom with 4 inch sides and do not drill or cut holes in the pot. If fertilized sufficiently and given decent lights it is easy to grow an Echindoras bleheri to a size where it can fill a 2' square volume. Such pots in thin sand can stand some creative solutions to disguise the nature of the pot and you can use a thin layer of matching fine sand to cover the other potting substrate, FloraBase is my favorite potting substrate.

It has been shown that under the substrate has little to now measurable effect on plant growth. Maybe if you lived in an igloo. Temperatures equalize throughout a properly heated aquarium wit decent water circulation. Believe me, if your water is warm enough for Discus everything inside the tank is also warm enough.

If you trust me on this substrate heating thing then what needs to be addressed is anoxic area formation which leads to anaerobic sulfer eating bacteria and their unsightly effects and potentially deadly chemical time bomb.
The best way is don't use 3" of sand. try about 2" and variations of the potting idea for major plants. Smaller species like E. tenellus spread like strawberry patches by runners. Believe it or not, you can use a siphon equipped with the wide mouth gravel washing cylinder on and over plant roots. The trick is to allow the siphon to lift the sand off the roots, tumble it clean, then gently reduce the flow and the sand will sprinkle back down and gently recover the roots. The plants and their roots will be no worse for this technique and the sand will remain clean enough to prevent anoxic black areas from forming.
Let's do our best to exclude Malayan Trumpet Snails. I am about to go through many of my tanks where L used about a 1/4" layer of FloraBase to cover bare glass because I an not much of bare bottom tank unless there is no other way.
I expect I am going to remove all fish, and valued plants, add a half a cup of bleach, let the bleach do its business, Drain the tank and scoop up all substrate and mostly the shells that seem to have replaced it.
I will likely replace my substrate with no more than 1/4" of pool filter sand and be very careful and try to avoid reintroducing MTS.

Do not add any Loaches let alone a Horseface loach.
There are some small sized Cichlids which are dwarf cousins of earth eaters and they are good natural assistants for keeping the sand clean and oxygenated. I finally looked them up and I was thinking of a Guianacara species but they would be very suitable as juveniles but they eventually reach about 4-1/2" and they could dig too much.
That only leaves me with Blue Rams but not Bolivian Rams because they can dig up plants in fine sand too easily.
Perhaps Laetacara dorsiger or Laetacara curviceps are the best choice. Just a pair or two if your tank is large. Discus sift fine sand as well as most any other fish and they do it with more delicacy which is what I am searching for. Something that won't sift the sand and smaller plants like E. tennellus. It is a challenge and why the simple siphon method gives you both the most positive influence, the ultimate in control and greater latitude in choosing how deep the sand substrate will be. Set 3" as your upper limit.

Simplify your aquarium and don't bother with the substrate heating system. They have only proven to be something in your way and do not help the plants.
The idea behind it i understand completely. It's just that the concept doesn't work well enough in reality to justify the added complexity.

[tolga]

Thanks apistomaster, my point about the under soil heater was not about wheater or not it is helpful for growing plants as I am all too familiar with the ongoing conroversy on the subject. I just wondered if it would assist in creating a small woter movement within the sand so as to prevent the formation of anoxic areas underneith. I suppose I sould have been clearer when I used the term aquascape. You see I am not even sure If it is possible to grow any amazon swords in a heckel tank as most of the literature I have read suggests that these plants don't do too well in anything below 5.5 ph. So I thought of having just sand an wood with the sand sloping here and there to add some depth and interest and maybe experiment with few swords growing in cleverly hidden pots around the wood. Your point about the growing medium and the root fertilizer tablets will surely come in handy but the low ph might make all this impossible. So the issue is really how to keep the bottom of the sand layer from becoming anoxic. Your suggestion about the method of keeping the top layer clean is very usefull and I'll certainly use it. Also the point about the 3 inch maximum sand level has to be right. But I still need a permenant solution to keeping the bottom of the sand airated and your under soil pipe design made me think about this possibilty. Thanks again.

[Apistomaster]

Hi Tolga,

It really is a challenge to come up with a system or mechanism to provide a deep layer(3") of very fine sand with some circulation of oxygenated water. I collected my own natural river sand which had some finer particles than the carefully particle size controlled sieved pool filter sand and reduced the thickness to 2" and tried the underground perforated piping system into which I injected oxygenated water from the bottom up. I did not think a convective heat circulation system would accomplish the desired goal.
The 1/2" PVC pipe proved to be to large and after 2 years of operation the pipe was beginning to work it way to the surface near the injection point and by then I knew I was no longer getting evenly distributed fresh water to all areas of the sand. I removed the pipes just a few weeks ago. I know by "hydrovacuuming" the sand in place I can prevent anoxia.

On the other issue of growing plants in a Heckel tank being kept at a pH of 5.0 in very mineral free water I have not tried it. However, I have been able to grow plants in almost pure RO water with a pH of 4.0 to 4.5 using the potted plant method where I could supply the plants with nutrients in the potting growth media successfully. I have a 20 Long set up with Black Darter Tetras, Poeciliocharax weitzmani and a miniature Loricaridid species,
Parotocinclus cf. eppelyii. These little suckermouth catfish only reach about 1". Both are from Rio Negro tributaries. I mainly used Singapore Moss on wood but I have a couple pots like previously described, planted with Cyperus helfneri and those have grown very well and are sending up many inflorescences. I am using NutriFin PlantGro timed release fertilizer sticks. I think the same method would allow you to get good growth from Echindorus bleheri. Growing other rooted plants in the fine sand in "Heckel water" chemical properties is not likely to produce satisfactory results.

I have resigned myself to using branched wood as my sole furnishing and the fine sand for a biotopically correct Heckel Display tank. As much as I like Heckels, I sold the last 10 adults I raised from a group of very small specimens, 3 to 3-1/2 inches diameter after keeping them about 5 years. They were the 3rd group of Heckels I have kept for 3 or more years at a time. I have concluded that my chances of ever breeding them approach zero. I don't think Heckel Discus are likely to spawn unless they could be kept in extraordinarily large aquarium.
I think Heckels need to be kept in large enough groups for them to develop a complete social unit and I think they need much deeper water for spawning than either S. aequifasciata or S. haraldi. In large commercially available aquariums it is easy to keep Heckels and you will get pairs. The pairs will stake out a territory around a likely suitable spawning substrate and go through all the motion up to and including cleaning the chosen spawning site. Getting them to the next stage is where I have always met an impasse.
Heckel Discus are really quite different from the other two species in many ways. I still love them but I want most of the fish I keep to breed. I really wanted to accomplish raising Heckels through their entire life cycle but I am going to just hope someone someday more skilled than I does show us the way we can reproduce their success.

[Dutch dude]

In responce to previous postings I can tell you Guianacara are not suitable for a planted tank. They need caves and dig holes in the sand until they reacht the botom of the tank. They also dig out plants and if you secure them they rip off all the new leaves to the plant will eventualy die. This is from my own experience. My Guianacara are around 6 inch by the way. Guianacara and Discus can be kept in the same tanks but you need to provide the Guianacara plenty of caves (lots of wood piled up). The tank should be at least a 120 gallon.

I a planted tank with some open spots a Bolivian won't uproot plants. They are no diggers like some of their larger relatives but only dig pits of 3 inch in diameter and maximum 2 inch deep. After they have spawned and the eggs are hatched they move the wigglers over to those pits. They like to dig the pits close to plants becouse the roots protects the pits from colapsing and at the same time overhanging plant leaves give protection and a shaded aria. Bolivians are not known to be diggers or up-rooters. I breed and kept Bolivians for over 8 years.

A heater cable in the substrate will create hot and les hot aria's and in a gravel substrate this will create a flow in the substrate. The heater cable becomes higher in temperature as the average tankwater so not everything is at the same temperature like Larry suggests. I highly doubt if a heater cable in a sand substrate will create flow. The density of the substrate is just to high.

Echinodorus feed from the roots. This makes me wonder if Echinodorus will indeed have dificulties with the low PH or not. I think it is defenately worth trying.