Please, please...

[smartino]

To the group,

I am a newbie to Discus and currently have 2 high fin cobalt discus and one of them is just not eating for the last 5 days.

Previously the discus had white stringy looking poop coming out of him about an inch to an inch and a half. I treated with Metronidazole powder, putting 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gallons. I have a 50 gallon hex, so I went with a 1/2 teaspoon taking into account for rocks, plants, etc. I would then change 25% of the water, and treat again every 48 hours. I did 3 treatments and near the 3rd, the discus started taking Beefheart, so I thought great. Did a final 50% water change.

Now the discus is in the back of the tank and appears to be interested at times when I put food in, but never takes any. He/she is the smallest of the discus (I have 4 in total), and the other 3 eat very well (bloodworms, flakes, beefheart).

So did I stop the Metronidazole to early, or could this mean I need to do another water change?

The discus does not have any fungus on it from what I can tell, have not seen any poop (certainly no white). I would say he/she is a little darker than normal, but I do see the cobalt colors on the fin, so not totally black., just darker than normal. The dorsal is slightly clamped, but all other fins look great, no tears, or decay...The only other thing is he/she looks a little blotchy on the sides, but it appears internal rather than an external thing. Breathing looks normal.

Please, any thoughts on the best treatment?

thank you.

Steve

[rave 2468]

Treating with metro I do 500mg per 10 gal and treat for 7 days, so according to what u did I think was under dosed, and the treatment was too short.

[rave 2468]

Treating with metro I do 500mg per 10 gal and treat for 7 days, so according to what u did I think was under dosed, and the treatment was too short.
For got to mention you have to treat every 24 hours.

[smartino]

Thank you. Sorry, 500 mg equals how many teaspoons?

[rave 2468]

I am not to sure, I use a scale to measure.

Ryan

[smartino]

Thanks,

I did the calculation based on a calculator referenced on this site at: http://www.ez-calculators.com/measurement-conversion-calculator.htm

So if I am correct, 500 mg = .5 grams, and .5 grams = .105 teaspoons per 10 gallons of water, based on the calculator.

So with that said, this would mean about .5 teaspoons total per 50 gallons, which is the dose I did previously. So if this sounds reasonsable, I should do the same dosage, but just increase it to every day for 7 days? What kind of water changes should I do in between dosages?

thanks

Steve

[Eddie]

Generally 50% is sufficient but I'd like to know more info. Can you please fill this out?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545

Eddie

[tcyiu]

Please, any thoughts on the best treatment

Do you have a hospital tank? A spare 10 gal tank would be fine. (Use filter media from your main tank to get the filter seeded).

What you have described is pretty classic, "low man on totem pole gets abused and then becomes sick" disease. I just made up the name. ;) But the symptoms are classic. Within a small group of discus, the lowest in the pecking order will get stressed from the harassment. The stress and the lack of food will cause it to be susceptible to whatever pathogens happen to be nearby.

Isolate the fish in a hospital tank. Crank up the temp and treat with a full course of metro (BTW, follow the directions on the medicine bottle. Grams and teaspoons don't correlate. Different materials have different densities. So a teaspoon of X is NOT the same weight as a teaspoon of Y.)

Then keep the fish in there and fatten it up with extra food (and lots of water changes). Hopefully, it will be strong enough to withstand some more abuse.

However, just as fair warning, in my limited experience, the weak fish will never become dominant (i.e. it will remain low on the pecking order). If you only keep four, the weak one will make repeated trips to the hospital tank from the discus-on-discus violence. It's just the nature of cichlids. This is why the general recommendation is six fish in a school. The weakest two fish can share the abuse.

Hope this helps.

Tim

[smartino]

Thanks Tim for you guidance, and here is the questionare filled out that Eddie asked for:

Please complete the questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste)

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

One of 4 discus remaining in the back of the tank and noticed white feces about an inch long coming out of him/her...Would no longer come to the front of the tank at feeding time. At times appears interested, but will not take food.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Not eating, white stringy poop, a little darker than normal. Everything else on the list above is not present.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Treated at the recommendation of my local fish store with Metronidazole. I put in based on the recommendation of this site http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products3.html#Metronidazole where I purchased my chemicals a 1/2 teaspoon. Did this for 3 treatments every 48 hours with a 25% water change in between (per the directions). Discus seemed to start taking food again, but a few days later went back to hiding and not taking any more food. This is where we are now. I proceeded yesterday to dose the tank again with 1/2 teaspoon and will do a 25% water change tonight (24 hours) and keep this going for 7 days unless the group disagrees.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55 gallon hex, 5 years old. 4 Discus (3 medium, 1 small), 2 small plecos, 1 cory cat, 1 molly, 1 tetra, 3 small angel, 1 medium angel.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

25% water change each week, tank has been up for 2 years, I have gravel on the bottom, and I do not age my water.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____ 84 % (I can't seem to find a heater that will get it higher than this?

- ph _____6.9 - 7.0

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____20

- well water ____No

- municipal water ____Yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently - No

thanks!

[smartino]

To the group,

I have seen lots of suggestions on cranking up the temp into the 90's, but have not been able to find a heater that goes up to this temp. Mine goes to 86, but even when cranked up to 86, it does about 84 at best. I have 2 of them in the tank but still maxes out at 84. How do people get higher temps?

thanks

Steve

[joshuajames]

can you put some pics of the fish and aquarium up?

[Eddie]

To the group,

I have seen lots of suggestions on cranking up the temp into the 90's, but have not been able to find a heater that goes up to this temp. Mine goes to 86, but even when cranked up to 86, it does about 84 at best. I have 2 of them in the tank but still maxes out at 84. How do people get higher temps?

thanks

Steve

This used to be standard practice when using metro but there is no need to increase the heat. The elevated temperature actually degrades the metro faster and this requires retreatment sooner. Some people do 3 times a day at 8 hour intervals but a single 500 mg per 10 gallon, once a day treatment is more then enough. This is well documented in many books for the treatment of fish.

Eddie

[Frankr409]

This is well documented in many books for the treatment of fish.

Eddie

Can you post some specific reference as it relates to Discus fish on this, Eddie? Hard for me to believe that Wattley and others were so wrong in their advice.

Their advice works by the way, the recommended 92- 94 degrees increases metabolism and blood flow which increases the rate of absorption of the medicine and also accelerates the life cycle of the parasite. I would be shocked if there was even a measurable degredation of the meds at a temperature of 92 degrees versus 86 degrees.

[Eddie]

Can you post some specific reference as it relates to Discus fish on this, Eddie? Hard for me to believe that Wattley and others were so wrong in their advice. Their advice works by the way.


Sure thing Frank, give me a second. ;) Also, never said that it didnt work...by the way.

[Eddie]

Here you go bud, doing a quick google search and this is also in his new book. Same exact treatment regimen. Also, Wattley is a good dude but not a vet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=SAdDtT7YRRoC&lpg=PP1&dq=fish%20treatment%2C%20edward%20noga&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q=metronidazole&f=false

Eddie

[Frankr409]

Here you go bud, doing a quick google search and this is also in his new book. Same exact treatment regimen. Also, Wattley is a good dude but not a vet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=SAdDtT7YRRoC&lpg=PP1&dq=fish%20treatment%2C%20edward%20noga&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q=metronidazole&f=false

Eddie

See nothing related to Discus in that reference.

[Eddie]

I'm sorry and this reference has what to do with Discus specifically. Not... sorry dude.


LOL, no worries man. It has to do with all fish. And there is no reference to temperature. Good luck though!

Eddie

[Frankr409]

LOL, no worries man. It has to do with all fish. And there is no reference to temperature. Good luck though!

Eddie

I see, so all fish are subject to the same treatments. That explains it all. All the posts in this particular part of the forum that is.

I'm pretty certain that Discus respond to heat treatment for the reasons that I have mentioned previously in combination with appropriate dosage.

[Eddie]

See nothing related to Discus in that reference.


I will double qoute you since you have to second guess on your "words". If there are specific methods of treating different species, this would be spelled out as such. There are references for treating salt or fresh, not each species. Most medications, not sure if you know or not, do not have each species in mind when giving treatment instructions, only safety precautions for some more delicate species. Since the professors actually know what they are doing, I think they'd mention temperature as being an integral part of the treatment with metro.

And again, I'm glad you have had success in using metro at higher temperatures. Thats awesome, pat on the back. Its just not "required". Key word, required. ;)

[Frankr409]

I will double qoute you since you have to second guess on your "words". If there are specific methods of treating different species, this would be spelled out as such. There are references for treating salt or fresh, not each species. Most medications, not sure if you know or not, do not have each species in mind when giving treatment instructions, only safety precautions for some more delicate species. Since the professors actually know what they are doing, I think they'd mention temperature as being an integral part of the treatment with metro.

And again, I'm glad you have had success in using metro at higher temperatures. Thats awesome, pat on the back. Its just not "required". Key word, required. ;)

Eddie, you can triple quote me, and double dog dare me too if you wish, but I think the sage advice of Real Experts like Wattley have some basis in fact whether he was a vet or not. I have cited the reasons why heat treating works in greater efficacy in combination with an appropriate dosage of metro in Discus fish and there is really nothing more to offer on the subject.

[Eddie]

Yeah, thats what I thinking too. Thanks for the advice!

[Frankr409]

Yeah, thats what I thinking too. Thanks for the advice! Your more than welcome, Eddie, glad to set the record straight.

[Frankr409]

Record straight, which record was that? Wattley's suggestion....LOL

Good night Eddie, the point has been made.

[nc0gnet0]

And if the fish also has a secondary bacterial infection which is rather common, heat helps how?

[Frankr409]

And if the fish also has a secondary bacterial infection which is rather common, heat helps how? That was not the OP's question. Perhaps you should start a different topic of What if questions.

I would add that a secondary bacterial infection is not common for fish who are treated properly for the primary infection. Have you ever had a cold turn into something worse? Yes? well the cold didn't do it, it was your weak immune system that allowed you to catch something else.

[Eddie]

That was not the OP's question. Perhaps you should start a different topic of What if questions.

I would add that a secondary bacterial infection is not common for fish who are treated properly for the primary infection. Have you ever had a cold turn into something worse? Yes? well the cold didn't do it, it was your weak immune system that allowed you to catch something else.

The OPs concern was about temperature and metro. Elevated temps are not a requirement, regardless of your ideas (oh and Wattley's).


Eddie

[Frankr409]

The OPs concern was about temperature and metro. Elevated temps are not a requirement, regardless of your ideas (oh and Wattley's).


Eddie

Again Eddy, according to EXPERTS it increases the efficacy of the medication for the reasons I have mentioned in previous posts.

Hopefully the OP's take away value is that what he has read about higher temperatures over and over again from other valued members of the community as it relates to this particular issue has validity because it is sound.

[Elite Aquaria]

I see we have a difference of opinions here. Both of you are entitled to your opinions however, personal attacks are against forum rules. I have removed any such post. If they continue I will close this post.

Now lets keep our personal feelings aside and help out one of our members.

[boxters]

the white jelly like poop is an intestinal parasite. If its in its advanced stages your fish will chase food but not eat. They will eventually starve to death if you do nothing about it. Putting metro in the water will not do the trick in this case, as discus do not absorb enough of this medication from the water. This medication should have been put in their food whilst they were still eating. 800mg per 250 grams of beefheart mix fed 3-5 times per day untill normal poop appears. So your options are let them starve to death or treat agresively. You will need to mix up 200mg of metro with some baby frozen brine shrimp. Just use the water from the melted brine shrimp. Draw 2ml into a syringe without the needle. Remove the fish from the tank and place on a wet towel. Place the nib of the syringe as far as it will go in the fishes mouth. Slowly discharge the fluid in the syringe into the fish. Some will come out the gills and this is normal. Wait untill you see the fish swollow and then return to the tank. The reason for the brine shrip is so the fish maintains its strength during recovery and whilst not eating. If its stopped eating this is probably your best option

[smartino]

Thanks for all of your help. I went with the syringe method below and did it 2 times so far, (the last time was last night), and the fish seems stressed today quite a bit after the second treatment, so I feel I need to wait and see. I just did a 50% water change in hopes of keeping the fish alive, perhaps to much treatment all at once.

I am very hesitant to pull the fish out again at this point unless you guys say go for it..

I did notice that he/she had white poop hanging out this morning, so i made sure I vacuumed all of this out when I did the water change.

Next steps?

I would appreciate a quick answer about should I treat the water again based on the recommended dosage by the metro, or do I pull the fish again and treat with the syringe?

thanks

Steve

[nc0gnet0]

I would appreciate a quick answer about should I treat the water again based on the recommended dosage by the metro, or do I pull the fish again and treat with the syringe?

thanks

Steve

Your more than likely to get varying opinions on this so it is up to you to decide who's advice you want to follow and see it through.

[Foxfire]

If you want to kept discus, a heater that can go over 90F for even a large tank is important. I use a ViaAqua titanium (fully submersible and handles salt) that has a seperate temp sensor and outside temp dial. These are great and will put a tank up 93 F (scale reads.) I keep extra on hand for both winter and in the event of a heater failure (a good safety measure that costs so little and is then available for an isolation tank, too.):D

[boxters]

i have used the syringe method many times very successfully. you need to do it at least 5 times per day for 5 days to be effective. Can you please send me a reply detailing exactly how you are doing it, as there is a right and wrong way. It is stressfull for the fish, but if the fish is not eating its the only way. Also are you leaving the lights off, as metro is light sensative and will stress the fish as well

[tcyiu]

This is just an opinion but the whole force-feeding thing freaks me out.

I've successfully treated fish with stringy poop and transparent poop with just metro in the water (at the recommended dosage and slightly elevated temps). Clearly, absorbing metro from the water is NOT as effective as if the fish actually ate the stuff (via food or force feeding). But it works. Why stress the fish out more, and potentially wound the mouth/throat areas?

BTW, with respect to elevate temps or not, I am of the firm OPINION that increasing temps will increase fish's and parasite's metabolism. This in turn will speed up the absorption process. I could leave temperature as before, but it just means more time before the meds kick in (and more time without food).

Just an opinion.

Tim

[boxters]

if manual feeding is done correctly it is highly affective and no damage is caused. I have worked with a fish fet for a very long time, and once a fish stops eating its emune system is compromised. Metro in water is fine so long as fish is still eating. Once they stop, the infestation is in its advanced stage, and the fish will most likely sucombe to infection

[smartino]

Thanks everyone for your opinions...

The process that I do for force feeding with metro is the following:

I take a facecloth, and soak it from the tank and lay it on a rectangular plate.

I then take a small cup and mix in a small amount of metro about 1/8 teaspoon with very fine beefheart.

I have an eyedropper that seems to just about fit in the fishes mouth and fill it with the metro/beefheart combination.

I then catch the fish in my net and lay it on the cloth and and insert the eyedropper into the fish's mouth carefully and squeeze in all of the solution.

I then place the fish back into the tank.

Right, now the fish looks a little off-center in that it is kind of on its side to a small degree, not totally laying on its side, just a little off center.

Temp is 82 degrees, as this is the best my heater can go for now...I will put in a second one today and try and drive this up as high as I can.

Thanks all!

[smartino]

Any thoughts on next steps....

I see treatments using epson salts, should I attempt this, or continue the metro feedings?

[boxters]

no harm in trying some epsom salts

[smartino]

Any recommendation on the epson dose for a 20 gallon hospital tank, and how often to dose, and then finally how often do I do water changes.

[Eddie]

Any recommendation on the epson dose for a 20 gallon hospital tank, and how often to dose, and then finally how often do I do water changes.


2 tbsp per 10 gallons. Replace any salt removed from water changes.

Actually Epsom salt is synergistic when used with Metrodizanole, I learned that from Paul. I also read about it in several documents where Epsom Salt was used on its own to combat internal flagellates. It is proven to be mildly effective by itself.

Eddie

[nc0gnet0]

Do you continue with the epsom salt treatment for ten days same as the metro?

[Eddie]

Do you continue with the epsom salt treatment for ten days same as the metro?

I don't treat with metro for 10 days. Some do and some don't. :o

[smartino]

Is it truly 2 tbsp per 10 gallons? I read on the board, 1tbsp per 10 gallon?

[Eddie]

Is it truly 2 tbsp per 10 gallons? I read on the board, 1tbsp per 10 gallon?

You'll find plenty of different answers, I use 2 some use less. So is it truly 2...if its true for you. ;)

[smartino]

Ok, I just went with 2, so it is true, how long should it be true before I change the water (assuming a 50% water change?)

[Eddie]

Ok, I just went with 2, so it is true, how long should it be true before I change the water (assuming a 50% water change?)

Whenever you want, just add back the Epsom removed. ;)

[smartino]

Ok, hopefully last questions:

How long do I leave the epson in there per treatment?

How long do I keep doing the epson treatments after I change the water each time?

[Eddie]

Ok, hopefully last questions:

How long do I leave the epson in there per treatment?

How long do I keep doing the epson treatments after I change the water each time?


You can leave it in there until the fish are better, constantly replacing any removed from water changes. It wont hurt them, it may make them poo plenty though. If the fish are eating and pooing normal, stop the Epsom.

Eddie