Sticky Needed ! - On how to set up a discus tank - for beginners

[discuspaul]

I for one, believe a really good, clear, sticky is needed on properly setting up a discus tank - for newcomers to the discus party!
I don't mean, say, talking about setting up a tank for growing out juvies, or heavy-duty discussions, for example, on the pros & cons of BB tanks vs. planted, & any other discussions which may be confusing for those aquarists out there who simply want to get started, (have seen or heard of discus, and love them), but have no idea how to get going.
(and don't know the right questions to ask from the outset.)

Recently I've read a large number of threads from new entrants into the hobby, who are asking all kinds of questions ( away from the main crux of the subject, because they don't know any better, or don't want to appear stupid) about filtration, w/c's, neutralizing toxins from tap water, or adding Prime vs. some other product to condition water, to name a few examples - only for all of us to find that, after many posts back & forth, it becomes obvious the question poser has not yet even cycled his or her tank ! This is no doubt confusing for the newcomer, but wastes a lot of time & effort back & forth, by both sides (the questioner & the party trying to help).

In my own case, after many years of freshwater aquarium-keeping (but no experience with discus), I decided to set up a growout/show discus tank with 3" juvies.
Because of my prior experience in aquaria, I knew enough to properly cycle & somewhat age the tank, & go through the necessary motions to develop proper water chemistry, heavily research discus-keeping, etc. - & the long & short of it, was that it was over 2 months before I felt ready to add discus to a lightly planted tank, which I had carefully groomed & conditioned (i.e. for the plants' early development & growth) before taking the livestock plunge.

I sincerely hope some of you will know where I'm coming from - I simply felt that some well-experienced discus-keeper (perhaps an administrator of this site) would find it in his or her heart to develop a sticky that would prominently tell newbies, (to this site, & to discus), about getting started:
from minimum tank size, to cycling, filtration, maintenance of water chemistry, cleanliness, sourcing of good stock, etc. etc., in order to clearly & properly educate the newcomer into discus needs & preferences, without dwelling specifically on all the in & out parameters of, again as an example, juvies vs. adults - that type of thing - apart from moderate illustrative discussion on the difficulties & requirements of growing out smaller fish.

I certainly hope I have not touched any tender nerves here, or stepped out of bounds, but after spending many hours of going through innumerable threads & posts on SD over the past couple of months, I have yet to come across some really good straightforward advice (all in one package that is) for those newbies to the discus hobby.
I hasten to add - there is much extremely good advice given in the posts - but I find it to be "shotgun" type approaches, with many in-between posts that move dramatically away from the issue at hand & just "muddy the waters", or replies to specific questions more or less buried somewhere in some thread, & I just feel this is confusing to the newcomer, and "just too much to handle" - it can be so overwhelming !
Is there any agreement out there to what I'm trying to say ?
If not, I'll just shut up & go about minding my own business !
My intentions are all good.
Respectfully,
Paul

[DiscusKev]

Didn't read the whole post, but I think this is rather straight forward.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=28937

I believe more can be found on the main SD page.

[Eddie Wells]

Didn't read the whole post, but I think this is rather straight forward.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=28937

I believe more can be found on the main SD page.

+1

[LizStreithorst]

You are looking for a recepie. There is none. There are too many variables involved to write a general "how to". Everyone's water is different. Everyone's level of experience is different. What might be useless information to you could be invaluable so someone else.

All the information is here. If you are interested in Discus and enjoy learning stuff all you have to do is look. If you have a question, ask. Remember its not about the destination. It's about the cooll stuff you find out along the way.

[DiscusKev]

Just like to add,

In my opinion, if there is a thread for everything you need to know about discus in general, it would be quite pointless for members to start a thread as it has already been answered. Off course, there are exceptions.

I agree with Liz's post; what might work for you may not work for others.

[discuspaul]

Didn't read the whole post, but I think this is rather straight forward.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=28937

I believe more can be found on the main SD page.

Thanks Folks,
But I did read ALL OF the 16 pages of Carol Roberts thread on the subject, which began in 2003, ending at a recent date. (As well as many hundreds of other posts in SD dealing with questions put to the "experts" on discus.)
Please understand, I am not being critical - I believe SD is a fabulous knowledge provider.

No fault at all of Carol's, but that thread covered all kinds of things not specifically related to the issue at hand. It was all over the map, from beginning to end, with many comments & questions having altogether little or nothing to do with setting up a discus tank. All of which I feel could not be followed with any degree of real understanding, by any novice.

With all due respect to Carol, who provided excellent information in the 1st posting, as well as many other bits & pieces of top-notch info throughout the thread, I simply feel the first posting was insufficiently detailed & did not cover nearly enough basic info on getting started with discus from the beginning, in say, clear point-formatting, for those newbies who don't even have the knowledge to first properly cycle their new tank before adding discus.

I have read numerous "how-to" articles on many a subject as complex as discus-keeping can be, and IMHO, the better ones covering almost all essential facets in easy to understand language, were 2-3, or more, pages in length.
What am I missing ?
Paul

[birdog]

I understand exactly what you're saying Paul, I was at 0, from 1 to 10 just a few months ago in my understanding of any kind of fish keeping.
I searched and searched for such a thread and found that no one thread was exactly addressing my particular situation, so what I did was to start asking not caring if anyone thought I was stupid, for example, I read a thread that discussed the use of BN plecos for help in cleaning tanks and I asked if there was a fish that would not only eat leftovers but also eat the poop,lol.

Anyway, I found that in reading sooo many threads and picking at each one, my wealth of knowledge was increasing rapidly.
I do believe that you have good intentions and I as a newbie appreciate that, I also believe though, that there is no substitute for reading and reading, and asking and asking some more.

David

[birdog]

Also, my local "Zen masters" have helped along the way.


David

[mmorris]

You are looking for a recepie. There is none. There are too many variables involved to write a general "how to". Everyone's water is different. Everyone's level of experience is different. What might be useless information to you could be invaluable so someone else.

All the information is here. If you are interested in Discus and enjoy learning stuff all you have to do is look. If you have a question, ask. Remember its not about the destination. It's about the cooll stuff you find out along the way.

Well put, Liz. When I first found Simply I read everything in the library. Literally. Then I started in on the beginner section. I read and read and read and, through, the numerous thoughts and ideas, I found common denominators. It helped, also, to figure out who really has the experience. The amount of experience some people on this forum have is amazing.

[discuspaul]

I did the same thing as birddog & mmorris, and I must admit I learned more about discus-keeping in 3-4 months, than I had learned about tropical fish-keeping in general, in my over 40 years of keeping aquariums.

My point is however, that many people do no do that, as they don't feel the necessity of going to the trouble (perhaps too anxious, or too lazy) of doing significant research before jumping in to the hobby.

How many times have we heard of the person who has gone out to their LFS, bought the tank & some equipment, & dove into getting discus for that tank, only to find being quickly faced with numerous obstacles, problems & disasters, before finding out (by asking questions - but too late) that they didn't follow the essential basics from the outset.

I believe a lot of these cases could be prevented, and do feel strongly that a good clear, comprehensive, "recipe" if one wants to call it that, is possible, & can be developed, that would preclude many beginners from a costly & frustrating initiation into discus-keeping.

[Keith Perkins]

Being lazy and trying to keep discus is probably a recipe for disaster in itself and I'm pretty sure you're not going to fix that no matter what you do.

Paul - If you feel strongly that there is a need for a beginners discus tank sticky and that it can be done well I'd encourage you to give it a go, assuming you have time. I bet you could find experienced folks here to vet it through. As Martha and Liz said though, there are a lot of variables that might not make this task as straight forward as one might first think.

[tcyiu]

... My point is however, that many people do no do that, as they don't feel the necessity of going to the trouble (perhaps too anxious, or too lazy) of doing significant research before jumping in to the hobby.

...

I believe a lot of these cases could be prevented, and do feel strongly that a good clear, comprehensive, "recipe" if one wants to call it that, is possible, & can be developed, that would preclude many beginners from a costly & frustrating initiation into discus-keeping.

Therein lies the rub. Folks who jump in with both feet are not going to read a beginner's guide either.

Believe me. This not new behaviour. Many decades ago before we had the web, we had this little thing called Usenet. I wrote and maintained the first *.aquaria FAQ. After it was well established and proliferated throughout Usenet, newbie questions continued to pop up. I gave up and handed control off to the other folks who wanted to maintain it.

Back then Usenet was relatively tighknit and we could just say "RTFM". And people could be shamed into doing so by netiquette. That situation no longer exists. The web is a free-for-all. So no matter what we do to make it plain and simple, people will do what people do.

BTW, I committed the same dang error a few years back. I went out and bought two discus thinking my many years in the hobby would serve me well. Lo and behold, one killed the other and then got sick. That was when I found Simply Discus.

I also didn't feel the need to read a beginners guide. I was very wrong, but I didn't know it until there were casualties.

Tim

P.S. I'm not telling you to not write a beginners guide. I'm just saying don't be too surprised if you find that many beginners who need the help, will not bother to find it and read.

[discuspaul]

Therein lies the rub. Folks who jump in with both feet are not going to read a beginner's guide either.

Believe me. This not new behaviour. Many decades ago before we had the web, we had this little thing called Usenet. I wrote and maintained the first *.aquaria FAQ. After it was well established and proliferated throughout Usenet, newbie questions continued to pop up. I gave up and handed control off to the other folks who wanted to maintain it.

Back then Usenet was relatively tighknit and we could just say "RTFM". And people could be shamed into doing so by netiquette. That situation no longer exists. The web is a free-for-all. So no matter what we do to make it plain and simple, people will do what people do.

BTW, I committed the same dang error a few years back. I went out and bought two discus thinking my many years in the hobby would serve me well. Lo and behold, one killed the other and then got sick. That was when I found Simply Discus.

I also didn't feel the need to read a beginners guide. I was very wrong, but I didn't know it until there were casualties.

Tim

P.S. I'm not telling you to not write a beginners guide. I'm just saying don't be too surprised if you find that many beginners who need the help, will not bother to find it and read.

Both you & cozykeith have a well-taken point.

Could it be, though, that if there was such a sticky, at or near the top, in the 'discus for beginners' section, it would certainly be prominent, and if the 'lazy', or impulsive, ones did nothing else to research things properly, they might at the very least, just have a look-see at this one obvious informative aid, and who knows, that might avert a lot of disastrous beginnings, wouldn't it ?

Perhaps I could find the time, and I just might take a stab at fleshing out such a sticky, and then some of the 'experienced discus pros' out there could have a go at vetting it, suggesting changes, improvements, deletions, etc.
I'll give it some thought, & see if could develop a suitable program, hopefully easy enough to follow & understand, and with all the necessary provisos & cautions.

[discussmith]

I completely understand your concern. When I got started back in the dark ages the only discus available locally were all wild caught with adult greens being very expensive and juvenile browns about the only domestics to be found. The nice thing was though that everyone trying to keep and breed discus were also writing books. Jack Wattley had not yet released his famous turquoise to the public. I bought every book, magazine, or pamphlet available on discus keeping. It was a great help even though a lot of that info is now no longer valid. It probably would be useful to be able to go to the sticky section here and download several articles from each sponsor and successful home breeder telling of how they got started and what they currently do to be able to compare to what you might want to try. What you are looking for is exactly where most beginners fail in jumping in without proper knowledge and preparation. Lacking the patience this particular hobby requires they too quickly dive in and end up very disappointed. That info is available here but not in that convenient form, and I could not expect those to take the time required to put something like that together. As enjoyable as it was, aquiring all that knowledge was expensive and time consuming and I still was not successful right from the start like so many are now.

[Willie]

In my own case, after many years of freshwater aquarium-keeping (but no experience with discus), I decided to set up a growout/show discus tank with 3" juvies.

These things do not happen because there are too many points of view on how to keep discus. I have my opinion and I'm sure many out there disagree with me on each and every point.

I'll pick on your original post, for example. I don't think you can have a growout/show discus tank. You can have a grow out tank or you can have a show tank. In my opinion, setting up either is totally different.

In a grow out tank, I would have barebottoms and sponge filters. I would add 50% - 100% or more discus than would qualify under the 1 discus/10 gallon. I would do massive water changes, feed beefheart heavily, and I would pick out the 2 - 3 sorriest fish every 3 month and sell them. After a year, I would have great fish that I can take to show competitively.

In a show tank, I would start with adult discus (5"+) at half the 1 discus/10 gallon rule. I would feed them flake food, do minor water changes, and just sit back and enjoy the fish.

I've done both and have enjoyed both approaches, but now I'm all about barebottom, breeding and showing discus. But there's nothing wrong with the other approach either and I have many friends with beautiful discus show tanks.

Willie

[discuspaul]

Thanks Willie,
But here's where I disagree with you - no matter how much discus experience you have - & while I don't have that much (discus experience that is) - I do have over 40 years of tropical fish keeping experience, having kept many, many planted tanks - & had years of breeding egg-layers & raising fry, I might add.
I do know from experience now, that you can certainly have a combination of show/growout tank. I have been successful at it, and I know several other discus keepers that have been very successful at it as well - forgive my saying so, and with all due respect, but you sound like an elitist, single-minded (I din't say "narrow-minded", did I ?) naysayer who may be somewhat inflexible in your views - & I am offended.
Have a look, for example, at my red melon, posted today for rating by discus university, in my "planted/growout/show tank". I got him/her @ 2.5" - now almost 5" after 4 months - my tank is crystal clear - excellent water quality at all times - fish & plants both doing extremely well - & that's with 3 or 4 w/c's of 50-60% weekly. What do you see wrong with that ?
How is your BB philosophy better than that ?
Apologies if I have ruffled your feathers.
I do love your input.
Regards,
Paul

[roclement]

Maybe the sticky should read:

New to Discus...start here!

Welcome to Simply Discus, the universes largest source of knowledge for the King of the Aquarium!

Many people come to this place and want to find a "out-of-the-box" guide on how to start a Discus tank; This will not happen...in order to learn how to properly keep Discus, we recomend reading through all the articles in the library as well as reading and participating in our Forums.

Once you have an idea of what kind of set-up you want, type of fish you'd like to keep, etc. start a thread giving the group a general guideline, level of experience, and budget so we can all help you and share our wealth of knowledge, concise opinions, and absolute know-how on Discus keeping! :)

Too much?

Rodrigo

[discuspaul]

roclement:
Excellent - I really love your suggestion for a start to the Sticky - the wording is great.
If you've read all the posts to date, you will have noticed I'm giving some thought to developing such a sticky for the experts to vet, & your suggested opening would, hopefully, be an "eye-catcher".
Appreciate your comments.
Paul

[Skip]

new people! PLEASE LISTEN THE FORUM!

PLEASE!! i have learned my lesson!

i am NOW a Barebottom tank discus Pappi! thanks SD people!

it drives me nuts to see anything laying on the ground and its only be 6 hrs.. LOL :angel:

[mmorris]

I do know from experience now, that you can certainly have a combination of show/growout tank. I have been successful at it, ...

Your red melon is beautiful. I'd love to see pics of the others. :)

[discuspaul]

I'll try to get you more photos- I'm not very good at photography - perhaps not patient enough to get those beautiful close, sharp pics, but I'll see what I can do.
I have only 6 - another red melon, 2 solid thai yellows which have gorgeous coloration, and 2 red spot greens.

[Eddie]

I don't think you can have a growout/show discus tank. You can have a grow out tank or you can have a show tank. In my opinion, setting up either is totally different.



I agree with Willie. ;) Except Chad proved me wrong. :)

[William Palumbo]

For me...Simply has always been one 'STICKY" for information. Don't agree we need another sticky, since this whole site acts as one. It's ALL here people, you just have to spend some time to find and read it. If no time for that or too lazy, how are you going to make water changes and regular maintenance? I love any hobby where I can read up extensively on it. As already stated, there are many ways to be successful. Nothing in the Discus world is black and white. What works for me, may not work for others. Seriously tho, there is SOOOO much info on here, that's up to date, and in real-time, that I RARELY, rarely, buy any printed material. It's ALL here!...Bill

[roclement]

and...isn't reading and learning part of the hobby as well? There are no shortcus! Great post Bill!

There are at least 4 very experienced people who have replied to this thread and I guarantee that if asked to write a definitive document for newbs on how to keep discus, you would get 4 totally different documents with only one thing in common..buy good fish from a trust worthy source.

Rodrigo

[tcyiu]

But here's where I disagree with you ...

Hey Paul, I think we can disagree without having to go there. I think Willie's point was pretty objective. I kinda feel that casting labels seemed unwarranted.

Just an opinion.

Tim

P.S. Nice looking red melon.

[discuspaul]

Thanks Tim,
You're quite right.
The heat of the moment got to me when a little nerve was touched.
My apologies to Willie - I believe his comments were indeed made objectively.
Will watch it in future.
Paul