Question regarding PH...

[machine77]

OK, the PH of my tap water is 8.0. My tank, after cycling doing a fishless cycle is 6.4, which took 3 weeks. My water storage container is at 8.7 and this is with a powerhead moving the water inside. My question would be this, how come my tank PH has dropped but my water storage container which has been filled for a week has climbed?

Nolan

[Eddie]

Because the nitrification process reduces KH, thus affecting the stability of you PH. What is the KH reading of the water?

[machine77]

Because the nitrification process reduces KH, thus affecting the stability of you PH. What is the KH reading of the water?

That i do not know.. I dont have a kit that test for that. Whats next? Should i let in sit 24 hours in my storage tank with no agitation?

[Eddie]

That i do not know.. I dont have a kit that test for that. Whats next? Should i let in sit 24 hours in my storage tank with no agitation?


No, I would agitate the water still. Might use a simple air stone instead of the powerhead. Too much air will give you a higher o2 amount, increasing the PH. I'll bet money that your kH is very low so the PH can swing both up or down, depending on the gasses (o2 or co2) in the water. I'd add something to buffer to the water, like baking soda or crushed coral. I know coral can get expensive so Baking Soda would be your best bet IMO.

Eddie

[machine77]

I have a simply cheap, air pump that i can use, it doesnt put out alot of pressure, so would this be ok for my 300 gallon water tank? Maybe i can put it only a foot deep so the water pressure doesnt affect the air pressure. And how does baking soda work?

[Eddie]

Well, for a 300 gallon storage tank, that would definitely need some stirring up. I'd keep the powerhead.

Info on baking soda, taken from:

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/waterchemistry.htm



Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). One teaspoon of baking soda added to 50 liters of water can raise the kH of the water by approx 4 deg dH without a major affect on pH.

[mmorris]

The ph rises in the storage container as the carbon dioxide escapes from the water. Most of us have to age our water for that reason. We don't want to add water from the tap to the aquarium, where the ph will then shoot up! It's best that happens in the water storage container. I think you need a pump with sufficient output that you can put the air line all the way to the bottom but after that, I doubt it really matters what the air output is, so long as it is bubbling away.

Don't add anything to your water yet. You need to buy a kh test kit to measure the buffering capacity of the water. The buffer keeps the ph stable in the fish tank. You add one drop of solution at a time to the water in the vial, and when the water changes color, then you know your kh. You want at least 5, or 5 drops before the water changes color. Mine doesn't really even register so I have to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). The bicarbonate acts like a sponge to absorb the acids in the tank that would drop the ph. Since you have been doing a fishless cycle and haven't done a wc in three weeks, it's impossible to know without the kit if you have sufficient buffer. Your water may very well be fine.

[machine77]

WOW... so many things to learn... After i rinsed out my WS container tonight, i filled, took a ph reading of 8.23.. Tested it again after a 4 hours and it is now at 8.28.. Ill put my powerhead back in there and see what happens, my air pump does put out enough pressure to make bubbles all the way to the surface and quite a few at that. Ill try and find a kh test kit online somewhere. Any help?

[flyman767]

Ill try and find a kh test kit online somewhere. Any help?

Most LFS sell kh test kits(petsmart, petco, etc.) shouldn't be hard to find.

http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=74

[Eddie]

WOW... so many things to learn... After i rinsed out my WS container tonight, i filled, took a ph reading of 8.23.. Tested it again after a 4 hours and it is now at 8.28.. Ill put my powerhead back in there and see what happens, my air pump does put out enough pressure to make bubbles all the way to the surface and quite a few at that. Ill try and find a kh test kit online somewhere. Any help?


Definitely need to find out what your kH is. Then you can accurately decide whether or not you need to add anything to buffer. So far it sounds like its low but its always a good idea to verify. ;)

[Owl]

I'd add something to buffer to the water, like baking soda or crushed coral. I know coral can get expensive so Baking Soda would be your best bet IMO.

Eddie


An alternative would be to add oyster shell instead of the coral, it is cheap and readily available at any decent pet store that sells bird foods.

[boxters]

What substrate is in your tank? Do you filter the water going into your aged barrel ?

[machine77]

My tank is a BB. Ill test my water as soon as i get a KH test kit!

[mmorris]

Ken's prices are hard to beat, and his shipping is super-fast. http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html

[ExReefer]

WOW... so many things to learn...

I thought this was not your first discus tank? You told me that in a previous thread when I commented about your dual FX5's.

If you are still learning about PH swings then perhaps you are not ready for discus.

[machine77]

I thought this was not your first discus tank? You told me that in a previous thread when I commented about your dual FX5's.

If you are still learning about PH swings then perhaps you are not ready for discus.
LOL...Ill take my moms advice when she said, if you dont have something nice to say then dont say nothing at all. Thanks anyways Mr.Exreefer!

[mmorris]

If you are still learning about PH swings then perhaps you are not ready for discus.

I've heard it said that noone knows water like discus keepers. I'd never heard of a ph swing when I got my first discus. I do a couple of lectures to area fish clubs, and I ask them questions like, how many understand the nitrogen cycle? Few claim to understand it. Maybe one person in the room will undestand kh. Generally, most of the people attending have kept tropicals for years.

[machine77]

I've heard it said that noone knows water like discus keepers. I'd never heard of a ph swing when I got my first discus. I do a couple of lectures to area fish clubs, and I ask them questions like, how many understand the nitrogen cycle? Few claim to understand it. Maybe one person in the room will undestand kh. Generally, most of the people attending have kept tropicals for years.

I dont claim to know everything about discus, i do know that PH can drop ect... But not cliam. Im not gonna get into a D**k mesuring contest with people over a simple question lol. Its lame. I guess alot of our sponsers shouldnt be keeping discus as well cuz they have no idea why my PH goes up as well. Regardless i was just looking for some insight and possible solutions. For those who have wrote me, much thanks for the help.

Nolan

[mmorris]

I dont claim to know everything about discus, i do know that PH can drop ect... But not cliam. Im not gonna get into a D**k mesuring contest with people over a simple question lol. Its lame. I guess alot of our sponsers shouldnt be keeping discus as well cuz they have no idea why my PH goes up as well. Regardless i was just looking for some insight and possible solutions. For those who have wrote me, much thanks for the help.

Nolan

:confused: Woops - maybe you misunderstood. Pm sent.

[machine77]

:confused: Woops - maybe you misunderstood. Pm sent.

Ha Ha, its ok... My comment wasent to you, but rather to the know it all!LOL

[JacobL]

that comment about about not being ready was pretty ridiculous, we come here to get help and learn, not scolded. We all have to start somewhere, I am still learning about ph swing. In my situation my water comes out of the tap at about 8.5 with a KH of 3. After aerating for 24 hours it drops to about 7.8, but the water in my tank is usually about 7.2 to 7.6. What exactly should I be doing to make sure I don't cause stress during water changes? I think I have some crushed coral somewhere, but do I put it in the water storage barrel? Or the in the tank? It is BB.

[machine77]

My water from the tap is 8 to 8.2, and even after aging in over a week it rockets all the way to 8.8. Thats the problem im having. My tank is 8.6. I guess the fish will just have to get used to it cuz im not chasing ph.

[JacobL]

My water from the tap is 8 to 8.2, and even after aging in over a week it rockets all the way to 8.8. Thats the problem im having. My tank is 8.6. I guess the fish will just have to get used to it cuz im not chasing ph.

I wonder what makes the ph rise or fall after aging? I suppose it would be mineral and metal contents of the water. I am lucky mine falls instead of rising like yours. Your water would be perfect for african cichlids. I used to have them, I didn't like them all that much.

[flyman767]

Hi Jacob,
If you tank avg's around 7.4, and your aged water is 7.8, even with a 50% w/c you've only moved your ph .2....certainly nothing for your fish to stress over.

I've always tried to avoid changing the ph in the tank..even if it's a slight amount. Otherwise..you always seem to be chasing you tail...not to mention the stress this could cause to your fish. I would either use crushed coral or baking soda in your storage barrel to bring up your kh. Also, this allows you to check the water perimeters in the barrel first without the fish being exposed to a possible ph swing.

[machine77]

I wonder what makes the ph rise or fall after aging? I suppose it would be mineral and metal contents of the water. I am lucky mine falls instead of rising like yours. Your water would be perfect for african cichlids. I used to have them, I didn't like them all that much.

I have yet to get a Kit to test my KH, i think ill do that today.. I not a big fan of those cichlids LOL.. I think ill stick to discus. Ive been asking around and i cant seem to get an answer. In my 300 gallon aging barrel i have tried this..

No air stone for 24hrs, ph still went up.

Air stone for 24hrs, still went up.

Tried a high powered power head with alot of splash in the water, still went up.

Im over it. I guess these fish will just get used to a high ph. If there was something i could add to my aged water to bring it down to an even 8 i would feel alittle more comfortable about it. That would keep my tank ph around 7.7.

[mmorris]

In my situation my water comes out of the tap at about 8.5 with a KH of 3. After aerating for 24 hours it drops to about 7.8, but the water in my tank is usually about 7.2 to 7.6. I think I have some crushed coral somewhere, but do I put it in the water storage barrel? .

I can think of no reason why your ph should drop after ageing unless you are measuring water with fish in it. Carbon dioxide gasses off, which raises the ph. If you want to use crushed coral, you can add it to the tank. I'm sure some add it to the wc barrel. I find coral doesn't dissolve fast enough but then my kh is close to 0. i use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and add it to the wc barrel.

[JacobL]

I can think of no reason why your ph should drop after ageing unless you are measuring water with fish in it. Carbon dioxide gasses off, which raises the ph. If you want to use crushed coral, you can add it to the tank. I'm sure some add it to the wc barrel. I find coral doesn't dissolve fast enough but then my kh is close to 0. i use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and add it to the wc barrel.

well now I am quite confused. I will test it again to make sure but I was pretty sure the ph dropped. I know for sure it drops in the tank, I have one small piece of driftwood in there but I wouldn't think that would that big of an impact. Would adding coral/baking soda to the aging barrel raise kh and ph?

[flyman767]

well now I am quite confused. I will test it again to make sure but I was pretty sure the ph dropped. I know for sure it drops in the tank, I have one small piece of driftwood in there but I wouldn't think that would that big of an impact. Would adding coral/baking soda to the aging barrel raise kh and ph?

I can't speak for coral; however, using baking soda raises both kh/ph. This is why I always recommend making changes in barrel. If you do it in the tank..you run the risk of stressing out your fish..Ray

[mmorris]

I can't speak for coral; however, using baking soda raises both kh/ph.

How would it raise the ph? As I understand it, it absorbs the acids, thus keeping the ph from dropping.

[tcyiu]

How would it raise the ph? As I understand it, it absorbs the acids, thus keeping the ph from dropping.

When it neutralizes acid, that action alone raises pH. So if you have water that is below pH of 7, it is considered acidic. Add enough baking soda, and all the acid will be neutralized (assuming no additional acid is being introduced to the water). This means the pH will have risen to around 7.

Baking soda is inherently alkaline. Therefore if you keep adding Baking soda, the pH will rise slightly. Not too much because it doesn't dissolve very well and it is not very alkaline.

HTH,
Tim

[flyman767]

How would it raise the ph? As I understand it, it absorbs the acids, thus keeping the ph from dropping.

Yes..baking soda will neutralize acid and cause the ph to rise slightly. To determine how much click on the following link. I found it to be fairly accurate..Ray

http://www.dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

[mmorris]

So if you have water that is below pH of 7, it is considered acidic. Add enough baking soda, and all the acid will be neutralized (assuming no additional acid is being introduced to the water). This means the pH will have risen to around 7.



HTH,
Tim

That makes sense, but if the ph is over 7, is the baking soda going to make it rise further?

[mmorris]

Yes..baking soda will neutralize acid and cause the ph to rise slightly. To determine how much click on the following link. I found it to be fairly accurate..Ray

http://www.dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/calKH.asp

That's a nifty little calculator. Thanks for that. But why does baking soda increase the ph if the starting ph is 7 or over?

[flyman767]

That's a nifty little calculator. Thanks for that. But why does baking soda increase the ph if the starting ph is 7 or over?

My understanding is baking soda rests around 8.4 on the pH scale, above the neutral mark of 7. The effect of baking soda will be influenced by the current pH of your water--you will not be able to raise the pH above 8.4, but you can raise the pH to a more neutral level if it is below 8.4...Ray

[mmorris]

Ah, it's the baking soda itself, rather than the absorption capability of the baking soda, that raises ph when the water is above 7 to begin with. Thanks for that.

[tcyiu]

Ah, it's the baking soda itself, rather than the absorption capability of the baking soda, that raises ph when the water is above 7 to begin with. Thanks for that.

Yes. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is alkaline. As it dissolves, it will raise the pH level of neutral water. It does not dissolve rapidly which is why it exhibits "buffering" behaviour.

In this usage buffering means slowing down a change. So as the soda slowly dissolves, it neutralizes acid that is slowly introduced to the system. So it appears that the soda has "absorbed" the acid.

For comparison, if you were to dump sodium hydroxide into water, the pH would shoot straight up because 1. it is extremely alkaline (vs. bicarb) and 2. it readily dissolves. This is never used as a buffer because the effects are rapid and potentially deadly.

HTH
Tim

[mmorris]

So it counteracts rather than absorbs?

[flyman767]

So it counteracts rather than absorbs?

It's my understanding that it's works a neutralizer..slowly neutralizing the acidic properties that it encounters; therefore working as a 'buffer'. It has many uses..one of which is used as an antacid to effectively 'neutralize' heartburn...Ray

[mmorris]

So both its properties as an alkaline and it's ability to neutralize acids are what increases the ph? If water has a ph of, say, 7.4, is it 7.4 rather than, say, 7.8 because of a mix of acids and alkalines, or is it 7.4 simply because of the alkaline, and so water with a ph of 7.8 has more alkaline?

[flyman767]

Yes..this is my understanding/experience: once sodium biocarbonate is introduced, because it is inherently alklaine, will increase ph almost instantly. In addition, it slowly works as a neutralizer, dissolving and effectively once again.. raising ph. Ray

[tcyiu]

So both its properties as an alkaline and it's ability to neutralize acids are what increases the ph? If water has a ph of, say, 7.4, is it 7.4 rather than, say, 7.8 because of a mix of acids and alkalines, or is it 7.4 simply because of the alkaline, and so water with a ph of 7.8 has more alkaline?

It may be worthwhile dig into what pH is. It is a measure of free hydrogen ions (or lack thereof). At below pH 7, there is an excess of hydrogen ions, H+ (this is acid). Above pH 7, there is an excess of OH- (hydroxide ions). This is alkaline - also known as basic.

pH 7 is neutral - perfect balance of H+ and OH-. When you add the two, you get H20, which is of course just plain water.

Baking soda reacts with water to form a slight excess of OH-, hence it is alkaline. (The process is self limiting, so no matter how much soda you dump into pure water, the pH will never rise above 7.4 (7.8??? - I don't remember).

The OH- (hydroxide ions) reacts with free H+ ions in an acid to form water.

When this happens, I suppose one can say the acid is "neutralized". What is actually going on is the H+ is being removed, and hence the pH goes up. Unless more acid is produced or added.

Sorry for bringing chemistry into this, but it seemed that you really wanted to know rigorously what is going on.

HTH
Tim

[tcyiu]

Glad it helped!!

My typo really bothers me now - especially since I can't go back and fix it. As it stands with the wrong sign (+ instead of -), the text is a bunch of hooey.

:-(

Tim

[mmorris]

Write to Al; he fixes hooey.

[brewmaster15]

Typo fixed.:)

-al

[tcyiu]

A scholar and gentleman. THANKS.

And thanks to Martha for reminding me that Al fixes all that is wrong ;)

Tim