internal parasite or stress?

[markandhisdiscus]

tank background info . 120 gallon ,sand substrate , 1 big piece of bogwood , sparsely planted , temp 29 degres C , stock is 6 discus 2 gold rams and 10 cardinals. all discus are 4 to 5 inches
ph 7.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 5 to 10
maintainence regime 30% waterchange every 2nd day , with daily substrate clean
in the last few days my biggest ring leopard has become shy and withdrawn and lost interest in food , it will sometimes pick at the bits that drop down when the others are feeding, but stays in the background. breathing is fine , slime coat seems fine ,eyes are clear , havent seen any white/stringy poo ( but then i havent seen this fish poo letely , im assuming because its not eating?) colour is generally ok , maybe a touch darker than it should be , but not majorly. it also seems quite shy of me when i approach the tank as well.
i have treated with kusuri wormer plus with no effect , i have also tried live brine shrimp to see if that will stimulate feeding , but again no joy .

could it be an internal parasite , stress due to being low in the pecking orrder , or maybe something completely different . all other fish are thriving , and even spawning too.

plese help .

[boxters]

It could be constipation. It will not hurt to treat with Epsom salts

[Eddie]

I'd say possibly both. Stress can cause a fish to weaken and allow internal issues to take over. Maybe just keep an eye on it for then next few days and get a hospotal tank set-up in the event you need you do need to treat.

Eddie

[markandhisdiscus]

today when i fed them, this fish did come out and investigate the food but then retired and let the others eat. he did however at least eat a couple of bits , this is the 1st thing it has eaten for several days, so maybe the wormer plus has had time to do something now. ( i treated it 2 days ago) . im not going to get too excited just yet as it still isnt attacking the food like the others do , but this does seem to be at least a small step in the right direction.

i may well get some epsom salts and give that a go. just to rule out constipation if nothing else. what is the dosage for epsom salts ?

[ZX10R]

what is the dosage for epsom salts ?

I believe it is 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons of water

[markandhisdiscus]

great stuff thanks.

EDIT: i am certin now that it isnt constipation , as the belly of the fish in question looks to be very slightly pinched , and not bloated , so im thinking more along the lines of tapeworm/ some other internal parasite or infection

[Eddie]

great stuff thanks.

EDIT: i am certin now that it isnt constipation , as the belly of the fish in question looks to be very slightly pinched , and not bloated , so im thinking more along the lines of tapeworm/ some other internal parasite or infection


Its pretty much impossible to guess tapeworms. Although many think they are common, they are not too common.

Eddie

[markandhisdiscus]

hmmm , well i have treated with kusuri wormerplus which is flubendazole based , which isnt effective against tapeworm , that is what made me think maybe tapeworm.

[Eddie]

hmmm , well i have treated with kusuri wormerplus which is flubendazole based , which isnt effective against tapeworm , that is what made me think maybe tapeworm.

Could be anything, could be flagellates, could be water, could be a weak fish, lots of variables.

[richiem111]

I am having a similar problem.
Check the pecking order and eating thread.

[markandhisdiscus]

i have read that thread . this fish isnt really being bullied , in fact until this happend it was 1 of the fastest growing and best feeding out of the goup.

eddie with flagalettes being a distinct possibility ( a lot of the symptoms seem to match) do you think a Metronidazole based treatment could be worth a try? also , if it was a water issue surely you would expect all my discus , as well as the rams to be showing signs?

[Dutch dude]

Hi there,

Just listing info from Mark he put on here and he wrote me by e-mail.

- No white or stringy poo and just before the fish stopped eating the poo
was dark and chunky (lower chance on flagellates and common worms)
- The fish isn't dark colored and the eyes are bright colored as well
- Slightly pinched stomach aria (fish is off food and possibly parasites)
- The fish isn't bullied but is lower in pecking order. If food is in front of his
beak he still doesn't feed and even backs off. The fish doesn't eat live
artemis either (imo this rules out an issue with the pecking order becouse
the fish would eat what is in front of him and especialy live artemis)

To me a tapeworm issue might very well be the reason. Lots of tapes block the intestines and make it dificult to pass on food. The tapes are active and probably give a nauseous and filled feeling so the fish does not eat. At the same time tapes use up the energy of the fish. When whitish poo appears in fish with tapeworms it might very well be a secondary infection. So dark poo can go along with tapeworms.

What do you guy's think and I particulary like to know Eddie his opinion.

[Eddie]

My opinion is that it is not a tapeworm issue. The symptoms described wouldn't lead me down that road, it may with others but it just doesn't sound like tapeworm. It could be though and a round of Prazi is easy on the fish and after treatment, the fish could expell worms. Entirely up to the OP.

The clue for me is that if a fish had those symptoms as described above, the fish would have to be severly infested with tapeworms, to the point of causing organ damage. Otherwise the fish would still be acting normal.

Tapeworm is not as common as many believe.

Eddie

[markandhisdiscus]

something just happend which is leading me to thinking group dynamics could well be the issue. i put in 2 bits of frozen food , trying to make sure 1 went near the effected fish , he grabbed it but was then muscled out of it by 2 other fish .

[Eddie]

something just happend which is leading me to thinking group dynamics could well be the issue. i put in 2 bits of frozen food , trying to make sure 1 went near the effected fish , he grabbed it but was then muscled out of it by 2 other fish .

Which leads me to my 3rd post, could just be a weak fish, lots of variables.

Eddie

[Dutch dude]

Eddie, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Mark,...I agrea on Eddie that a weakened fish is out compete easely. From my observations the fish low in pecking order take the food that come close to them so they can avoid competing with the others. When a dominant fish swimm towards the low in pecking order they often drop the food and the dominant fish will eat it. This way the fish ovoids physical competition.

[markandhisdiscus]

thanks for all the help so far guys. unless im wrong the way i see it is like this. if it is ineed just that this fish hasnt got the guts to compete , i have 3 possible options.

1) remove the dominant fish , altho i doubt that would work as surely the next in line would simply take its place ,and the problem would continue .
2) sell the weak fish , problem icould see with that is if it is going to be added to an existing group ,then it would already be bottom of the pecking order , and again the problem would continue.
3) completely change the tank layout , get 2 or 3 more fish , bag up all the exisitng fish , add the weak ring leopard 1st , then after a short time add the newest fish , then re-add the rest of the existing fish , adding the dominant fish last of all. but even with that i can still se potential problems.

its tough to know what to do for the best here .

this idea is probably plain stupid but il get an opinon anyway , remove the wood and plants so that the fish is forced to mix with the group , and hopefully becomes more accepted???

[Dutch dude]

Hmmm,..this is a tough one. The fish might act like this becouse it doesn't feel well OR the fish is low in peck order and acts ill. Thats realy tough to judge and imo can be only done by observing the fish. Also,....since when does this fish act like this and did something happened or changed?

I had never real issues with bullying of a discus so I can't give you proper advice on that one.

[Eddie]

It is definitely a tough call. I'm sure you want all of the fish to be healthy and vigorous but there is always a tougher fish and there is always a weaker fish. IMO, if you remove the weak one, the next lowest fish in the pecking order will be the target. Some people have had some temporary success with moving the most aggressive fish but it returns to being a PITA. You could always set-up a new tank and have the weak fish be the bigger of a new group but then there will still be a new weak fish in that group.

I'd like to actually see this fish though, can you get a picture of it?

[Dutch dude]

Eddie,.....I don't know how you think abouth it but so far I don't hear Mark abouth aggression, chasing's, pecking or bullying. Why does the fish refuse to feed when food is in front of him ready to be eaten. If it was seriously stressed becouse of his position in the group I would at least expect stress bars and a darker color around feeding time. From what Mark has wrote nothing can convince me it is stress. Thats why I lean more towards a health issue and in particular tapeworms.

[Eddie]

Eddie,.....I don't know how you think abouth it but so far I don't hear Mark abouth aggression, chasing's, pecking or bullying. Why does the fish refuse to feed when food is in front of him ready to be eaten. If it was seriously stressed becouse of his position in the group I would at least expect stress bars and a darker color around feeding time. From what Mark has wrote nothing can convince me it is stress. Thats why I lean more towards a health issue and in particular tapeworms.


Thats entirely possible, this is why I'd like to see a picture of the fish.

[markandhisdiscus]

ruurd the leopard doesnt really get bullied , it just shys away behind the wood , 1 of my red turqs will have the odd nip at it but nothibg overly nasty , but my cobalt ( the alpha fish) and the other red turq seem to have a bit of a power struggle going on , they will quite often lip lock and compete for power , whenever that happens the leopard always hide away.

eddie
i will have to get my friend to come round with his camera , as when i got the group , i borrowed a good camera from my dad to get shots of them , which i have since given back , i have a camera i can try , but its a rubbish camera , i will try later today tho.

its strange , sometimes the fish is a bit dark ( including the eyes) and other times it looks perfectly ok , it shows stress bars i would say around 50% of the time .
i will see what i can sort out as far as a pic gos as soon as possible

[Avinitlarge]

thanks for all the help so far guys. unless im wrong the way i see it is like this. if it is ineed just that this fish hasnt got the guts to compete , i have 3 possible options.

1) remove the dominant fish , altho i doubt that would work as surely the next in line would simply take its place ,and the problem would continue .
2) sell the weak fish , problem icould see with that is if it is going to be added to an existing group ,then it would already be bottom of the pecking order , and again the problem would continue.
3) completely change the tank layout , get 2 or 3 more fish , bag up all the exisitng fish , add the weak ring leopard 1st , then after a short time add the newest fish , then re-add the rest of the existing fish , adding the dominant fish last of all. but even with that i can still se potential problems.

its tough to know what to do for the best here .

this idea is probably plain stupid but il get an opinon anyway , remove the wood and plants so that the fish is forced to mix with the group , and hopefully becomes more accepted???

I tried number 3 a few weeks ago, It made no difference what so ever

[Dutch dude]

Hi Mark,


ruurd the leopard doesn't really get bullied , it just shys away behind the wood Imo this points more to a health issue.

It is a tough call and hard to find out what is exactly going on. I assume nothing has changed or improved since you posted on here? Imo doing nothing won't solve this issue. Prazi is relatively save in use and would rule out tape worms as being the reason. I leave the dicision up to you. If you are going to use Prazi I suggest to do a large (70% to 80%) water change first and put in some extra earation.

Take care,

Ruurd

[pcsb23]

I have been asked to comment on this so here goes.

With all discus health issues there are many variables, and the symptoms can be quite common between ailments.

First off I have to say that without a 'scope and full examination we are just guessing, and my guess at this time is it is not a tapeworm issue. Although flubendazole is not the best worm med for tape worms it does work against them, if it were tape worms you would have seen evidence by now either in the form of segments being excreted or abdominal swelling, which is common when worms die and don't get expelled. The active ingredient in wormer plus is flubendazole.

The symptoms described are definitely stress related imo/e. Many things can contribute to this from bullying, water quality and environmental. Bullying is one which has to be managed, more fish can help, changing the tank can help, sometimes the bully just has to go. I read either on here or another forum that your tank has 2 large eheim cannister filters, if these are on full chat then it is likely that there is to much current in the tank, make sure the output is slowed, either using spray bars aimed against the tank wall, or turning the flow down.

You say you do water changes every other day, make sure the new water is close to the tank water in terms of parameters, pH and temp being the two main ones to worry over. I'm guessing you use straight tap through an HMA?

The symptoms of the ring leopard are fairly typical of spiro, I would be tempted to treat for this after ensuring all the other stress causing factors have been addressed. If you have a qt tank this is where to treat. In the UK metronidazole is 'script only so if you do not know a vet who will prescribe this is the next best thing is spirohexanol, and it does work! MJE sells it @ DD http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/JBL.html

Hope that helps.

[Eddie]

I agree with Paul, 100%.

[markandhisdiscus]

i have reduced the flow in the filters slightly , i will try re-arranging the tank , if no improvement i will try the med you suggested paul.

[markandhisdiscus]

well i ordered the spirohexol , but i have not needed to use it so far. while i was waiting for delivery , i took out all the plants , and simplified the scape .

since doing that the shy leopard is like a new fish , out swimming with the group , feeding well , colour has returned to normal , and things are looking much much better .

[Eddie]

well i ordered the spirohexol , but i have not needed to use it so far. while i was waiting for delivery , i took out all the plants , and simplified the scape .

since doing that the shy leopard is like a new fish , out swimming with the group , feeding well , colour has returned to normal , and things are looking much much better .


Thats great news! All he needed was a little push onto the stage and he's a showcase!

All the best,

Eddie

[markandhisdiscus]

yep , im relly pleased so far. il be happier once he starts to put a bit of weight back on , but now at feeding time , hes back to how he used to be. even if the main group are ll over the food ,hes pushing his way in and making sure he gets his fill. hes also much less shy and mixes with the group more. the pecking order remains very much the same , but he has grown in confidence , and seems to be able to handle a bit of competition much better now.

thanks again everybody for all your help , im happy to be able to report a positive outcome .