breeding discus in hard water, is it possible?

[PermyPerm]

Exactly what the title says. I live in an area with herder water and a neutral to alkaline ph. Just wondering if theres any tips or tricks I can use to A) soften my water slightly and B) what can I do to lower ph. Id rather not spend the money on an R/O unit, what other choices do I have? I have a formed pair that have spawned 3 times in the community tank, but have not gotten any wigglers. Make seems to be fertile as only a small number of eggs fungus within 24-48 hours. I have a 29 gallon set up with a pair of angels in it (they will be going to a new home in a couple days). The discus will go in there once the angels are gone. Its set up bare bottom with 2 sponge filters and a terra cotta pot, its also running at 84.4'F with a couple pieces of mopani wood and a ph of 7.4. Any tips or recommendations are welcome.

[boxters]

hi. well it is very difficult for discus to breed in hard water as it affects osmoregulation. The egg cell membrane becomes inpermiable. To soften the water i would reccommend a water filter. Not ro just a 2 stage filter with a 5 micron sediment filter and an extruded carbon filter. PH maybe a little lower around 6.7. You also need to ensure you have a pair. 2 females will lay eggs and even pretend to fertilise.

[PermyPerm]

im pretty sure they are male and female. last 2 batches went close to 48 hours with roughly 6-8 white eggs and 30 or so fertile looking ones.

[jimg]

I have a few pairs in tap ro mix with ph of 7.4 tds around 150 and I have other pairs in more ro tap mix to ph of 6.8 tds of about 70 and have yet to see any difference in hatch rates. I used almost pure ro to get the blue diamonds a heavier slime coat because to fry were not attaching, but they have over 80 fry last week 7.4 ph fry are doing fine.
I have been getting all my tanks, except the wilds, conditioned to more tap than ro and all fish are still breeding and very healthy. But......my tap is not very hard I think last time I checked it was gh8 kh4 or 5 tds about 250 ph after aging 7.8 to 8.0 and 7.5 to 7.8 before aging.

[PermyPerm]

my kh was 6 and i couldnt check my gh cuz i cant find the bottle. i will let u know what it is when i get a new test kit

[Willie]

Discus eggs cannot be fertilize in hard water because calcium ions signal the membrane to change fluidity and block fertilization by sperm. In soft water, the egg secretes calcium ions to signal fertilization and block further sperm entry. However, this is the ONLY time when discus cannot survive in hard water.

The solution is quite simple. Put your fish in the 29-gallon breeding tank with hard tap water. At some point, they will start to clean the substrate in preparation for spawning. At that point, change out 50% - 75% of the water with R/O. You can purchase 20 gallons of R/O water from most LFS for $0.50/gal. The fish will lay eggs in soft water and the eggs will be fertilized in soft water. The spawning process typically takes 45 minutes. Afterwards, you can proceed with normal water changes using hard tap water. The eggs will hatch fine, the fry will go free swimming, attach to the parents, etc.

In the entire life cycle of discus, it only requires about 45 minutes of soft water. You can purchase an R/O unit or just buy some 5 gallon water jugs.

Good luck, Willie

[DaydreamDiscus]

@Willie - If you change out 50% W/C with RO, won't the discus go into shock from pH? How do you combat that? How fast do you put the new water in? My pH is 7.6-7.8 tap.

Just curious, how about distilled, drinking, or spring water from Wal-Mart? Is this the same?

[boxters]

the ph of ro water will be roughly 7. If you are running 7.6 there will be no shock. The only time discus suffer from ph shock is if there are rappid large swings of more than 1 degree. However in some breeding programs a rapid adjustment in ph stimulates discus to breed.

[DaydreamDiscus]

so let's say my pH is 7.8 and I mix 50% of RO at 7.0 pH, what would the pH be at then? 7.2, 7.4?

So that much of a drop should be okay, right?

Is that the only thing (pH shock) to be worried about as far as putting in 50% RO water?

[boxters]

Lets just say your ph will not go below 7, so you are safe. With filtered water what you are doing is removing disolved impurities like heavy metals etc. The fish will welcome the clean water. what you really need to do, is measure your tds before and after the water change. Personally i would not do a 50% ro change i would do 30%. Living organisms including fish cant live in pure ro water, so you dont want to remove to much of the essentials

[Eddie]

Discus eggs cannot be fertilize in hard water because calcium ions signal the membrane to change fluidity and block fertilization by sperm. In soft water, the egg secretes calcium ions to signal fertilization and block further sperm entry. However, this is the ONLY time when discus cannot survive in hard water.

The solution is quite simple. Put your fish in the 29-gallon breeding tank with hard tap water. At some point, they will start to clean the substrate in preparation for spawning. At that point, change out 50% - 75% of the water with R/O. You can purchase 20 gallons of R/O water from most LFS for $0.50/gal. The fish will lay eggs in soft water and the eggs will be fertilized in soft water. The spawning process typically takes 45 minutes. Afterwards, you can proceed with normal water changes using hard tap water. The eggs will hatch fine, the fry will go free swimming, attach to the parents, etc.

In the entire life cycle of discus, it only requires about 45 minutes of soft water. You can purchase an R/O unit or just buy some 5 gallon water jugs.

Good luck, Willie

Damn Willie, thats an explanation like I have never heard...super in depth! ;)

[PermyPerm]

well the pair has been moved to their new tank. Im gonna buy some R/O water and next water change I'll add 10 gallons of R/O. by that time they should be close to ready to spawn. Do you guys think adding something like blackwater extract would help or not worth it?

[PermyPerm]

Alright, I got myself some R/O water did a 40% water change and used only the R/O to fill up with. within an hour or 2 the pair has perked right up and appetite has increased even more. Water changes from now on will be 10 gallons every other day 5g tap water and 5g R/O will be going back in. Hopefully within a couple days they will be cleaning the pot and we'll see some eggs. Wish me luck

[judy]

It also helps spark spawning if you drop the water temperature about three or four degrees by using colder water in your water change. That trick works every time for me.

[nc0gnet0]

so let's say my pH is 7.8 and I mix 50% of RO at 7.0 pH, what would the pH be at then? 7.2, 7.4?

So that much of a drop should be okay, right?

That depends on your individual water chemistry, but, chances are the PH would change very little and most likely be in the 7.6 range. Rarely does a 50% RO to Tap water mix result in an even split in PH values, unless you have fairly soft water to begin with, in which case you wouldn't be adding RO in the first place :)

[PermyPerm]

well we'll see how things go. they have spawned tonight so updates will be regular as things progress.

[Ocellaris]

OOOOHHHHHH never thought of doing this!!! I will try it. I have two breeding pair of discus one breeds every week the other breeds about once a month or so. And before my hardness was much lower I got successful spawns. After a substrate change it is not successful the eggs will all turn white. I will definitely give this a try thank you

[CliffsDiscus]

Any kind of changes can shut down a spawning pair it doesn't always have to be the water hardness. You an backtrack any changes made. If you still think it's the hardness, up out the eggs have a hour after spawning and place in in RO in 3 days you will know if the male is fertile or not.

Cliff

[Willie]

@Willie - If you change out 50% W/C with RO, won't the discus go into shock from pH? How do you combat that? How fast do you put the new water in? My pH is 7.6-7.8 tap.

Sorry, just saw this.

Discus do not go into shock from an R/O change. In fact, I used to do 100% W/C using straight R/O. So I drain all the water out and add in pure R/O. The fish typically spawns within 2 hours of the change. Obviously the fish won't spawn if they feel stress. Later on, I realize changing that much wasn't necessarily.

Far too much is made of pH shock. Back when I was taking my discus to fish competitions, they would travel in buckets filled with straight R/O. So they go from my tank (tap water) directly into the buckets. They go from the buckets into the show tank - using the R/O water in the bucket. Most places here in the Midwest have hard water and high pH, but they do fine.

Not doing water changes and letting pH drop in the fish tank - that's a problem. Clean water is never a problem.

Willie