Can Discus Be OK in 80 degree water?

[CammieTime]

I got a new big fish today and have to put him in a QT tank. The tank is 30 gal. The only heater I have will only heat the water to 80 degrees.

Will this fish be alright in 80 degree water?

[Jennie]

84-86 IS BETTER. buy a new heater tomorrow. eventually u will need it anyway.

[CammieTime]

I dont have time to buy a new heater for 2 weeks, going out of town. Wife is feeding while out. Will it be OK?

[William Palumbo]

Lower the water level, so the heater is not trying to heat a full 30gallons. Lower it by 1/3. 82 degrees is usually the min. I would use...Bill

[CammieTime]

So they will die in 80 degree water?

[Jennie]

No, just better off in 84-86. you'll be fine for tonight, just go buy better heater tomorrow.

So they will die in 80 degree water?

[William Palumbo]

Maybe not die...but may be sick or very stressed when you get back in two weeks...Bill

[CammieTime]

No, just better off in 84-86. you'll be fine for tonight, just go buy better heater tomorrow.

I dont have time to buy a heater. I just put a small booster heater into the tank to get it up a couple of degrees.

[Jennie]

yes but some heaters fluctuate in temperature so hopefully tank in warm location. temp should not drop lower than 80.

I dont have time to buy a new heater for 2 weeks, going out of town. Wife is feeding while out. Will it be OK?

[CammieTime]

temp should not drop lower than 80.

What happens to the fish if it does?

[Jennie]

Like Bill mentioned , added stress =sick fish=dead fish. Maybe your wife can pick up heater. But one smart thing Bill said was drop your water level down so heater is not trying to heat so much water.


What happens to the fish if it does?

[CammieTime]

But one smart thing Bill said was drop your water level down so heater is not trying to heat so much water.

The size of the heater is not the problem, it is designed for a tank twice as large. The problem is that the heater is designed to heat up to "86" degrees, but in reality, it is only heating the tank up to 80 degrees when on full blast on the 86 degree setting.

[boxters]

if you cant be bothered about buying a heater maybe discus are not for you. You can take a polar bear out of the snow and put it into a rain forest. It will live, but it does not mean its happy. If you want your fish to thrive, buy a new heater and heat the tank to the correct temp

[discusjoe27]

if your heater is set at 86 and it's only heating the water to 80 then your heater is old and maulfuctioning. like every one is saying buy a new heater...
I don't want to sound like an @-hole. but why did you go out and buy a new big expensive discus when you are going out of town for two weeks, and your heater won't go past 80? :(:confused: your wife knows how to feed them, clean the tank, and change the water right?

[CammieTime]

if your heater is set at 86 and it's only heating the water to 80 then your heater is old and maulfuctioning. like every one is saying buy a new heater...

The heater is brand new, just out of the box. I didn't think there would be a problem. But alas, there is.

Also, everyone assumes I live close to a fish store where I can buy a new heater - there are no fish stores in my town and I don't have time to drive to Fargo to get one. I've already ordered two new heaters online, ones that I'm told are higher quality.

So, the fish will have to live in 80 water for two weeks, I just want to know if it will be alive when I come back.

[YSS]

Many people successfully keep discus in 80 water. If your fish is healthy, two weeks in 80 degree water should be fine.

[Altum Nut]

The heater is brand new, just out of the box. I didn't think there would be a problem. But alas, there is.

Also, everyone assumes I live close to a fish store where I can buy a new heater - there are no fish stores in my town and I don't have time to drive to Fargo to get one. I've already ordered two new heaters online, ones that I'm told are higher quality.

So, the fish will have to live in 80 water for two weeks, I just want to know if it will be alive when I come back.

You have recieved some very helpful advise from members who were willing to help you. The ball is in your court now.
Your question was pretty direct and can't be answered as yes or no.
To put a fish in QT means to offer the best water conditions possible to avoid any problems. It appears you should return the faulty heater which may even drop temp below 80 and your question will then be answered.
Remember......you asked for the advise!

...Ralph

[Keith Perkins]

The heater is brand new, just out of the box. I didn't think there would be a problem. But alas, there is.

Also, everyone assumes I live close to a fish store where I can buy a new heater - there are no fish stores in my town and I don't have time to drive to Fargo to get one. I've already ordered two new heaters online, ones that I'm told are higher quality.

So, the fish will have to live in 80 water for two weeks, I just want to know if it will be alive when I come back.

There are many variables to keeping discus; water quality, diet, temperature, etc. If you're doing poorly on one of them but really well on the rest discus normally tolerate it just fine, within reason of course. It's impossible to say with any certainty what's going to happen here, because besides the 80 degree water, this fish just went through the stress of being netted and moved. If this was a fish you had had for a while and the rest of your fish keeping skills were top notch, I'd say it wouldn't be any problem at all, but with the added variables its just impossible to say for sure. If you're comfortable doing it, I'd suggest you instruct your wife on how to add one of the new mail order heaters when it arrives.

[Steve Rybicki]

CammieTime,

I have kept huge numbers of discus at 80 degrees with no problems. In fact, I prefer keeping, breeding and raising them at temperatures around 80 or slightly below. I'll give you a couple keys for success at these temps. First, discus are much less hungry at lower temperatures and most people make the mistake of feeding them too heavily and too frequently for the lower metabolism at these temps. They require much, much less food when kept cooler. Food is very deadly when too much is put in. Instruct the person caring for the fish, to err on the "to little food" side. Discus can handle light feedings for a long time. One huge feeding may kill them, so while you're gone instruct that they eat everything within a couple minutes or every speck should be removed immediately. Also, make sure there are no other fish in the tank. While they're acclimating they may not compete well or at all with other fish for territory or food. I would also recommend having no direct light on the tank for the first couple weeks of acclimation.

Your fish should be fine when you get back if the care is good. If the care is poor, they may die no matter what the temperature and many pathogens multiply at much faster rates at the high temps. There are pluses and minuses to each temperature range. The point being that discus can thrive at 80 degrees with good care.

[joshuajames]

dont buy a new heater! buy 2 or 3.i always keep an extra heater around.and dont buy a cheap heater.get quality.

[jball1125]

Yes it will be alive. However like said before you might come home to a sick fish. Bills idea of lowering the water level is your best bet if you can't get a new heater. Also please make sure that your thermometer is not the one broken.

[roclement]

The problem may not be the heater, what is the temperature of the room? I have tanks in my living room where the temperature is 68-70 all day so I use 150watt ebos in 20gal tanks.

The rating of the heater depends on how much volume of water it has to heat and the temperature diferential of the environmental around it.

I can put 50watt heaters in there all day and try every manufactor in the planet and they will not bring the temperature of my tanks to 84...my breeding temp, and they will stay on all day sucking electric and running the risk of shorting out.

Having said that, 80 for a week or so will not kill your fish, once you return, buy a higher wattage heater and bring the temp up slowly so you don't shock your fish. Meanwhile you can raise the temperature in the room by a couple of degrees to help the heater bring the temp up in the room.

Bills idea is a good one as well! I like that!
HTH

Rodrigo

[DerekFF]

Or you could just do like Bill suggested and lower the water so there isnt as much to heat......pretty fail proof and simple and wont cost you a dime...

[tcyiu]

The point being that discus can thrive at 80 degrees with good care.

+1 for Steve's post.

Discus evolved in rivers (and during dry months in shallow lagoons) which naturally fluctuate in water temperature and purity levels. They will absolutely tolerate fluctuations in temp, pH, salinity. Even domesticated discus which are captive bred. 20 years of captive breeding will not completely wipe out tens of thousands of years of genetic programming.

While your domesticated discus will not thrive in the long run at low temperatures, (i.e. will not show best colour, best mating behaviour ....) they will survive without all the horrible things that you have been reading.

The ability to adapt to rapid changes applies for river-based and coastal fishes. Deep sea and reef fish (and African Rift Valley cichlids) evolved in absolutely stable water conditions with fluctuations of maybe 1-2 degrees a year. They do not do well in rapidly changing water environments.

As a marine biologist friend who has collected in the Amazon told me, temporary dips in temperatures towards the low end of a particular species' range is much preferable to high temperatures of the range. (BTW, he says that he has never measured water temps above 82deg in discus collecting areas).

His reasoning is based on lower temperatures leading to lower metabolism and higher oxygen concentration in water. If you go the other way, the fish's use of energy increases as will its need for oxygen. But water dissolves less gases, hence a problem.

If you are still concerned, add insulation to your QT to reduce heat loss.

Based on what you wrote, the only concern you should have is over-feeding while you're gone.

Tim

P.S. Just realized that I should add: constantly changing the water parameters will stress out the fish. Doing it once in a while is no big deal. Doing it on a regular basis (daily?) will result in stressed fish. Just wanted to clarify that I am NOT advocating taking your discus for a rollercoaster ride every day.

[William Palumbo]

I feel, and thru my experience that 80 is not warm enough. Yea, so that won't outright kill Discus...but to "just" keep them alive at 80...come on people. As said they won't show their best color or best breeding. Then why keep them? To just have blah fish? Why not just keep them at room temp. and feed them EVERY other day? Angelfish are fine at this temp. not Discus. I'm sure I could keep my dogs alive feeding them once a week. A bare minimum of food and water, but I don't "just" want them alive...I want them to be happy and healthy and thrive. Look at the trade off for the lower temps. Is it worth it? Not for me, and I would NEVER recommend it, I don't care what the temp is in the wild. I don't agree with Steves' reasoning. Such low metabolism requires that much less food. that much less food means much less growth. As said, just unplug the heaters and feed maybe once a week...and enjoy...Bill

[kaceyo]

80 degrees will not be a problem for the fish. That's the bottom line.

[prolude006]

Mine live at 80 just fine, court, lay eggs, get wigglers, free swimmers, nice colors so who knows try it and see.
I do notice my stendkers were much better looking at the low temps than my fish from Asia!!

I also notice my fish look so much better and active if I leave a lot of tannins in the water.

David

[tcyiu]

I feel, and thru my experience that 80 is not warm enough.

...

As said, just unplug the heaters and feed maybe once a week...and enjoy...Bill

Wow. The reaction is a bit hyperbolic don't you think?

I said "... will not thrive in the long run at low temperatures." From reading and speaking with people collecting in the field, I feel that 80deg is NOT the low end of their range. In my experience and that of others, discus seem to do well at that temp. You certainly feel otherwise, but no need to resort to hysterics.

How did you make the jump from a difference of experience/opinion in discus temperature range, to the accusation that I'm recommending starving discus in cold water with no heaters??
:confused:

Tim

[discuspaul]

Way to go, Tim !!!

I also agree 100% with Rodigro's recent post above.

I have had several phone & email discussions with Fluval techies on heaters -they said precisely what Rodrigo pointed out, and it makes sense.
Quote re: one email conversation:
" If your room temp is say 70 F., and you're trying to heat a larger tank in particular, e.g. 75 gals., or more, to say 86 F, that 16 degree difference will make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get the temp anywhere near 30 C. in your tank.
The best it will likely manage is perhaps 80 F. On top of that, most heaters today, for some obvious safety reasons, have a built-in "shut-off" valve mechanism, which precludes the heater from ever reaching the max. indicated temp of 30 C. in any event.
( My comment: This appears to be an industry "secret", which is not mentioned in the advert. wording.)
For those reasons, Fluval recommends a secondary, 'back-up' heater be used, e.g. the Fluval "Tronic" (max, 150 watts should do) with max. temp setting of 34 C. , which will effectively take up the slack, when your first heater (rated for the tank size) reaches it's max. "cut-off" temp." end quote

[ifixoldhouses]

Did you let the heater adjust to the temp of the tank for 15 minutes before you plugged it in? maybe not calibrated right.

[William Palumbo]

Tim, the feeding reference was to what Steve said. It had nothing to do with you...the only reference I made to your post was the lower temps in the wild. But thanks to you, I learned a new word!...Bill

[mmorris]

What are we using for thermometers, folks? Any chance they're not particularly accurate? I have two digital checktemp thermometers, calibrated for +/- 0.5, but they read a full degree apart! Does one read 0.5 high, and one read 0.5 low? Maybe, but I don't bet on it. I used to use a bunch of the Coralifes - and had a 5 degree difference between the lowest measure and the highest! If your discus are doing fine at 80 degrees over the long term, are you sure they really are at 80?

[Jennie]

while this is all very interesting, it is mute now as the OP has left for his 2 week vacation already???

[mmorris]

:laugh:

[Justice]

I could "survive" in a house were the temp is set at 55 or even 90 degrees, but I highly prefer not too! :p

[Jennie]

LMAO!


I could "survive" in a house were the temp is set at 55 or even 90 degrees, but I highly prefer not too! :p

[tcyiu]

Tim, the feeding reference was to what Steve said. It had nothing to do with you...the only reference I made to your post was the lower temps in the wild. But thanks to you, I learned a new word!...Bill

In which case, my bad.

Tim

[Keith Perkins]

while this is all very interesting, it is mute now as the OP has left for his 2 week vacation already???

I thought about posting something along these lines, but I guess it's a moot point now. ;)

[Eddie]

The thing I would have mentioned, or I can now is that if the heater is set to the max setting (supposed to be 86F) and only keeping the temp at 80, I'd be worried the thing would stick on.

[Steve Rybicki]

I feel, and thru my experience that 80 is not warm enough. Yea, so that won't outright kill Discus...but to "just" keep them alive at 80...come on people.
Discus almost never experience 86 in their native habitat, especially during the rainy season which is when they spawn. Do you really think they have evolved past this in the aquarium?


As said they won't show their best color or best breeding. Then why keep them? To just have blah fish?

I can understand why a person who was unsuccessful at lower temps might think this, but let me assure you that the color, vigor, fecundity and growth is every bit as good and likely better than those kept at an unnaturally higher temperature. If you don't care for them properly, you might think otherwise, but the 10's of thousands I've raised and bred say otherwise.


Why not just keep them at room temp. and feed them EVERY other day?
Indeed, why not! I've kept a few tanks of discus long-term in the low 70's and they did wonderfully well. I gave them one feeding every 3 days and they thrived - even spawning regularly, though less frequently which is to be expected.


Angelfish are fine at this temp. not Discus.

Once again, I couldn't disagree more. In 1992 I kept 18 pairs that I tracked their spawning. They were raised and bred at approximately 78-80 F. They spawned on average every 123 hours (hair over 5 days), had spawn sizes averages of ~ 175-200 eggs, had hatchouts in the 80% plus range, grew to enormous sizes, were as colorful as any of the many thousands I've seen, and the few I tracked long term lived well past 10 years in age. At the time, literally every top breeder in the world recommended against keeping pairs over 82 degrees. I wonder how they could all be so wrong, and I could be so successful under such intolerable temperatures?



I'm sure I could keep my dogs alive feeding them once a week. A bare minimum of food and water, but I don't "just" want them alive...I want them to be happy and healthy and thrive. Look at the trade off for the lower temps. Is it worth it? Not for me, and I would NEVER recommend it, I don't care what the temp is in the wild. I don't agree with Steves' reasoning. Such low metabolism requires that much less food. that much less food means much less growth.

Your analogy is terrible. It's pretty well known that dogs are mammals and must maintain a high body temperature of around 101 degrees - constantly. They must eat simply to maintain this high body temperature - fish do not. Cold-blooded animals (fish are cold-blooded), have a metabolism geared to the temperature. Food requirements rise exponentially with temperature. Longevity rises exponentially with the decrease in temperature. Growth rate is slowed by lower temps, but overall maximum size is not. Fish grown slower at lower temps simply take longer but eventually make it to maximum size and live a lot longer for this trade off. For years IFGA breeders have grown their show fish in lower temps because many have a firm belief that they obtain larger maximum sizes by growing them slower at lower temps. Personally, I think the reason is because most people don't feed enough or perform enough maintenance that the high temps require, but rest assured maximum size potential is at least as great.

High temperatures for discus are not a panacea and low temperatures are not a death sentence. Of course, you have to know what you're doing in each situation. We can agree to disagree on this.

[William Palumbo]

Yes Steve...We will agree to disagree...Bill

[tcyiu]

Cold-blooded animals (fish are cold-blooded), have a metabolism geared to the temperature.

That is an excellent point - one that missed or misunderstood by a lot of people. The analogies drawn to us (humans) and dogs are misguided.

Tim

[jduboscarf]

Cammietime,

I would like to know the condition of your fish upon your return.

Oscar

[exv152]

Discus almost never experience 86 in their native habitat, especially during the rainy season which is when they spawn. Do you really think they have evolved past this in the aquarium?...

They can actually experience up to 90ºF in their natural habitats and as low as 74ºF, as per studies done by Heiko Bleher, see a recent article (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=89) on this topic.


High temperatures for discus are not a panacea and low temperatures are not a death sentence. Of course, you have to know what you're doing in each situation... A good compromise I've found is to keep the temp steady at 82ºF, and if it goes up by a couple of degrees, or down, I don't worry too much.

[waj8]

This is very interesting to me. Funny how a seemingly innocuous question can lead to such debate. I keep my tank at 83 and I would actually love to lower the temperature in my planted Discus tank. There are a few plants that don't seem to do well at the temperature I keep the tank. I did not know that wild Discus water temps. were so close to 83. I always thought that 83 was a bit of a compromise but now I think that maybe it's right on.

[tcyiu]

They can actually experience up to 90ºF in their natural habitats and as low as 74ºF, as per studies done by Heiko Bleher, see a recent article (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=89) on this topic.

Thanks for the link. It is interesting that Heiko points out that different subspecies evolved and adapted to different conditions (ranges of temps) and that keeps them apart biologically.


A good compromise I've found is to keep the temp steady at 82ºF, and if it goes up by a couple of degrees, or down, I don't worry too much.

Me too. ~82.

BTW, over the last week, I have kept one geriatric discus in the hospital tank to fatten him up. In the main tank, he seemed really stressed and was off eating.

To make a long story short, on two occasions this week, I forgot to plug in the heater after a WC. On both occasions, the water temp dropped to slightly more than 70 deg overnight.

AND on both occasions, I would not have known because the fish's behaviour was normal - comes up to the front of tank looking for food etc. It was when I was poking my finger into the water to get some flakes to sink that I realized my mistake and re-plugged in the heater.

The upshot is, time and again, I see that discus are very tolerant of temp swings. I really want to get the word out to new hobbyists: don't freak out over temperature. Keep them in the middle of the range that Heiko described, and everything will be OK.

Tim

[tdiscusman]

I am now keeping mine at 82 degrees. I've started a similar thread few months back asking whether discus will grow better at 80 or 86 degrees.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=78085

Tony