PraziPro, How do I know it is working

[snowflake311]

I have this wild discus that looked like death the moment I got him. He was shipped to be and got a hole in the bag he was left with only enough water to keep him wet. So I thought he was a goner right when I got him.

He perked up after 3 days but was still off. He would lay on his side in the tank. He was in QT but I thought the added stress of being alone was bad so i moved him to the 80 gal with my others. STUPID I KNOW!! but when I put him in the tank he acted so much better.

well its been 10 days sice I got him he is not getting better will not eat. clamped fins color is a bit dark and dull he now stays in one place keeping his head down. He has extra slime breathing a bit fast. No poop to see since he will not eat.

Water my Ph is 7.4 I know a little high for wilds.
Ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nirtates 10

Temp 83F



SO I started treating PraziPro this afternoon and saw this fish flash a little after I added the treatment. when will I know if it is working?

[nc0gnet0]

What made you decide to treat with prazi in the first place? Not sure I would have done anything but clean water and lots of it. Sounds like he suffered some gill damage in the shipping process, which will take time to recover from.

[flyman767]

Personally, I would have stuck with lots of w/c's ,raised the tank temp, added an airstone or two and watched him close.

PraziPro is a relatively gentle treatment. You will see it is active by the bubbling/fizzling of the water..especially near the surface. Good Luck..Ray

[snowflake311]

Well I did just clean water for the first 7 days with no imporvment. When a fish does not response at all to clean water alone after a week there is something more going on ime.

He is wild caught and so deworming seemed like a good idea. The guys in the wild discus section said deworming is a must for wild caught fish so is QT but I only did that for 3 days Oops.

I think the stress from shipping did something like let parasites get the upper hand or a sedondray infection could have been brought on by stress. The fish does have extra slime so that's why I think it's parasites. I'm going to try metro too after this treatment.

Just wondering if prazipro works fast at makeing them feel better if it is parasites.

[Jennie]

as per suggestions of another thread on same issues, this is why she is treating with prazi. Probably would be good and easier for everyone to follow if same thread was used. I would continue with the treatment since it's been started then give a break. I believe you also ordered metro. here is the post from ap on the other thread. She is NOT sure what she is dealing with

Everyone who recommended a quarantine and treatment for parasites were dead on.
We may differ on what medications we use and how long we use them but you have to do something.
No matter who your source is you can only know if they have been treated properly for parasites if you do it yourself. In doing so you establish a known baseline.
Here is how I treat all my new wild Discus and fancy wild Plecos assuming they do not have symptoms of skin parasites like Ich or Chilodonella:
For 30 days the fish are kept at a constant dose of Hikari PraziPro(praziquantel),
about 1/2 teaspoon of 10% flubendazole powder per 10 gallons which is first added to a small jar of water and shaken until all the powder is in suspension. These first 2 medications will kill a wide range of parasitic worms. I also use metronidazole to treat for flagellate protozoan parasites. I use all 3 of these drugs at the same time for the same length of time.
Be sure to maintain a frequent and large volume water changing regime. Be sure you replace the medications you have removed with the water changes to keep the concentrations in the water at a constant, therapeutic dose.
For the first week to 10 days keep the water temperatures somewhat elevated; 88*F is about right and provide an air stone in addition to any method of filtration you are using.
If the fish have gill flukes their gills will not be working at peak efficiency and at the elevated temperatures the dissolved oxygen level will decrease so by using an air stone you will be keeping the dissolved oxygen close to level of saturation at a given temperature.

You misinterpreted the cause of stress you observed as a social isolation problem. It was not. It was simply because it had been recently shipped and you really do not know how long it had been in the sellers tanks after it was imported or what kind of conditions the fish was kept in prior to export. One Discus can be very comfortably live alone for an indefinite period of time. And it will be much stronger after a month of this treatment which will help it cope with the stress of carving out it's niche in the pecking order when you add it to an existing community of Discus. By adding a new and never quarantined and treated Discus to an existing healthy group of Discus you run the risk of introducing some parasites to your other Discus. I am sure you did not treat the Discus you already had. You should treat your entire collection as things stand now.
A single Discus will eat well all by itself as soon as you give it a food it likes. I prefer to feed them live black worms for the first week and begin to introduce other foods a little at a time as you cut back on the amount of worms. Discus take time to become used to new foods.
__________________

[snowflake311]

Yes thanks I remember your post on my other thread. I thought I would move this topic to the sick section because that's what imdealig with now and will keep this one up dated.

But once again when should I see improvment with the prazipro so I know I'm treating with the right stuff? Because I'm not 100% sure what I'm dealing with and don't want to waste time treating with this if it's not what I need.

[Jennie]

It may take a couple of treatments with WC inbetween

[Jennie]

tions For Use:
For treatment of praziquantel-susceptible disease conditions in pond, freshwater and marine aquariums.
As A Bath: Start treatment with as large a water change as practical or start with new water. Any water used should first be conditioned with ULTIMATE® or a combination of Liquid Buffered ClorAm-X® and Stress-X™ to remove ammonia, chlorine and chloramines. Do not stop filtration, but remove activated carbon and stop foam-fractionation (protein skimming) and UV sterilization. Shake vigorously before use. Measure Aquarium Solutions® Liquid PraziPro® at the rate of one (1) teaspoon per 20 gallons of water to be treated. (one (1) fl. oz. per 120 gallons) Measure Pond Solutions™ Liquid PraziPro® at the rate of one (1) teaspoon per 32 gallons of water to be treated. (one (1) fl. oz. per 200 gallons) This produces a concentration of 2.5 mg/L. Distribute the proper amount around the edge of the aquarium or pond or directly in to the filter box to achieve the best overall distribution. A single treatment lasting 5-7 days is normally sufficient. Repeat as necessary, but no more than once every 3 to 5 days. May be used as a preventative, at the standard dosage, when disease is likely. Do not use with other drugs or disease treatments. May cause temporary foaming.

[flyman767]

Well I did just clean water for the first 7 days with no improvement. When a fish does not response at all to clean water alone after a week there is something more going on ime.
.

Sorry, I was not aware you were doing w/c's for 7 days with no improvement. I would agree with your assessment that after several days of w/c you need to proceed with another treatment. I also would agree with the idea to 'deworm' a wild caught. However, I don't think thats your immediate issue at hand.

But rather, as you mentioned a parasite is probably getting the upper hand. Additionally, as I mentioned, prazipro is relatively a gentle treatment for external parasites. I would not expect to see immediate improvement in a short period of time. This is why if it were me, I would try to buy as much time by raising the temperature(83 degrees is too cold..imo) this will speed his metabolism; therefore, increasing his appetite so he can hopefully resume eating. In addition, this should build up his immune system to fight off the whatever parasite might be wearing him down.

Having said all that, it's my understanding if using prazipro for 'worms'
it works well and very quickly. However, for parasites..this is a much slower process..Ray

[snowflake311]

Well bring the temp up does not help he will not eat. He looked like he wanted to a few days ago but I have never seen him eat.

It looks worst since I started the treatment :(

Here is a photo time line of how he has been and why I am so stressed about it.

first 2 days this is what he looked like. See the mark on his side I think its from rubbing on the bag because he had no water to move in.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8043892.jpg

day 3 he got up a little
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8053894.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8053895.jpg

day 4 I added him to the tank. He was like a new fish for about 2 days swimming around with the others but still would not eat.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8063912.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8063904.jpg

As more time went on with just doing daily wc he was hiding a lot his color was darker and dull and today he looks like this.
Whit a flash
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8183917.jpg
Without a flash you can see the extra slime coat on him it almost looks like ich in this photo but it is not.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8183919.jpg

Here are my others begging for food and my Pigeons color has gotten so much better and I can tell he is growing. So all the others are fine.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj223/pepy311/P8183927.jpg


What the heck is going on. Would a ph of 7.4 do this to a discus? I wish I got a photo of him in the bag when I open the box. I wish I knew what I was dealing with. It is driving me crazy I must save this fish he is such a fighter. Well off to do a WC.

[snowflake311]

I did a 90% wc cleaned the algae off the plants. Vacuumed under everything. I have good water flow so the ground does not get that dirty.

So I have a feeling that the Metro Treatment might be better to start with. I don't think its tape worm or any kind of flat or round worm. I have this great book about fish illness and have been reading up on it. After I'm done with the metro I will finish with the PraziPro. The metro also takes care of bacteria and some protozoans I think that's more of what I am dealing with. Metro takes care of a wide range of Bacteria from Gram positive to Gram negative along with killing many little internal parasite protozoans That could have gone out of control due to the very stressful near death shipping ride.

I don't think this guy has much longer to live if I don't find the right treatment fast.

[pcsb23]

I am not sure if the fish will survive or not but I would strongly encourage you to remove it from the main tank. It needs to go into a qt tank now. I have not had time to read all of the threads, but looking at the pic without flash this fish has either a serious external parsite issue or columnaris. Neither will be good for you existing stock and these may now be compromised. You should not allow sentiment to drive the decision process, sorry don't mean to be harsh.

If this were my fish I would get it into a qt tank, do a 4 to 6hr pp treatment @ 2ppm and then follow that up using a furan based med. I would not be too optimistic either, sorry.

[snowflake311]

Yeah I don't know if he will make it but I have saved a few fish in my day so fingers crossed.

After doing the 90% Wc and added Metro he is more active and now swims around fins still clamped but he is moving. Before he would stay with his head down and not move. His color is a little better not as dark he is now green with black bars. SO maybe he will make it.

I do have a QT tank up and ready and will put him in it tonight unless he seems much better and swims with his fins out. But this is the most I have seen him swim since the first time I put him in the tank. This fish is killing. :huh:

[Jennie]

thats good news, I was thinking humane euthanasia was the route to go. I think it was bill palumbo who told me when I first joined because of a sick fish here that at some point you have to consider these things. Good luck snowflake!


Yeah I don't know if he will make it but I have saved a few fish in my day so fingers crossed.

After doing the 90% Wc and added Metro he is more active and now swims around fins still clamped but he is moving. Before he would stay with his head down and not move. His color is a little better not as dark he is now green with black bars. SO maybe he will make it.

I do have a QT tank up and ready and will put him in it tonight unless he seems much better and swims with his fins out. But this is the most I have seen him swim since the first time I put him in the tank. This fish is killing. :huh:

[jimg]

In one photo it looks like bubbles on him, are you using pure tap for wc's? I don't always have a lot of luck with domestic discus but I always had good luck with my wilds. I would get him in his own tank,84deg 7.4 ph is fine. I would add 1tbs per 10 gal. salt and continue wc. I would go with the ph burn on gills as a start to the problem. But... Paul is probably right with the furan. I just never used furan or anything that strong on my wilds. I never mix wilds with domestics anymore either.

[nc0gnet0]

I do have a QT tank up and ready and will put him in it tonight unless he seems much better and swims with his fins out. But this is the most I have seen him swim since the first time I put him in the tank. This fish is killing.

I think you should heed Pcsb23 advice now, not later. He need's to go into QT now, regardless of his apparent improvement. Do you really want to risk losing all your fish?

If you seen some signs of improvement after a water change and metro, I would guess he is still having issues breathing and the extra oxygen helped him out, so make sure you have plenty of oxygen in the QT tank. Metro doesn't work that fast, and it is for internal parasites, which doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Even though prazi is not the medication of choice for most users on this forum for flukes most will agree that if it is a fluke infestation, you usually see signs of improvement fairly quickly when using it, although many times they come back with avengence. As you seen no signs of improvement with prazi, it might sway me a bit from diagnosing flukes.

I would lean towards a bacterial infection as being the most detrimental thing occuring right now and treat as such. I am afraid a PP treatment may be more than he can handle right now, so I would refrain (no disrespect Pcsb23) from using it until you had him stabilized in a qt tank.

[flyman767]

Even though prazi is not the medication of choice for most users on this forum for flukes most will agree that if it is a fluke infestation, you usually see signs of improvement fairly quickly when using it, although many times they come back with avengence. As you seen no signs of improvement with prazi, it might sway me a bit from diagnosing flukes.



I respectfully disagree...I've used prazi pro several times for gill flukes and it's not a fairly quick process. Especially for flukes. They can be extremely hard to rid. The current strains of flukes seem harder to eradicate. Prazipro is a gentle and not an aggressive treatment. It usually takes several treatments to see any positive effect.

I also agree with pcsb23, I would QT and do a PP treatment. If he doesn't survive this.. he probably wasn't going to make it anyway.

[Melissa]

I respectfully disagree...I've used prazi pro several times for gill flukes and it's not a fairly quick process. Especially for flukes. They can be extremely hard to rid. The current strains of flukes seem harder to eradicate. Prazipro is a gentle and not an aggressive treatment. It usually takes several treatments to see any positive effect.

I also agree with pcsb23, I would QT and do a PP treatment. If he doesn't survive this.. he probably wasn't going to make it anyway.

I'm with Flyman and pcsb23 on this one. PP is very safe at the 2ppm dose rate and i prefer using it because it technically is not a medication... it is an oxidizing agent and at that low dosage works wonders ime. If it is simply an external problem, PP would take care of it.

Good luck with this fish snowflake!
:o

[snowflake311]

Yeah its been bad since I opened the box from day one I'm surprised he is still hanging in there.

He is in QT now. He put up a bit of a fight and gave me a good splash I took that as a good sign. He now just sits on an angle and does not move now that he is in this tank. He really does better with other fish around but whatever.

I really do think it is a bacterial thing that might have been brought on by parasites and I think this secondary infection will be the death of him if I can't find the right treatment. Also if you look at the first photo of him he had that weird mark on his body That could have caused an infection maybe.

I kind of want to try and get another wild discus but I'm so scared this will happen again. I'm a bit turned off of shipping fish right now. But this was the first bad experience out of the 16 fish I have had shipped to me. so 1 out of 16 is not bad. The person I got trooper from said I could have credit but would need to pay for shipping. I'm not sure it is worth it.

[Jennie]

Don't be discouraged because of this one incident, snowflake. Concentrate on this sick one, keep an eye on others for few weeks and then look around at other fish and ask for pictures of the specific fish you want to buy!

[nc0gnet0]

I respectfully disagree...I've used prazi pro several times for gill flukes and it's not a fairly quick process.

I don't think you understood, I never said irradicating flukes with prazi is a quick process....quite the opposite. What I said was you usually see some signs of improvement/relief fairly quickly (more often than not this is only temporary with prazi). When the OP treated with prazi she stated it seemed the fish got worse...which is unusual (short term).

And while a 2ppm dose of PP is usually pretty safe with a healthy fish, this fish is anything but healthy. Judging by the photo's I've seen, in it's current state I would say the fish's chances of surviving the treatment are 50-50.

[pcsb23]

... I am afraid a PP treatment may be more than he can handle right now, so I would refrain (no disrespect Pcsb23) from using it until you had him stabilized in a qt tank....No disrespect taken.

I am not able to offer the level of advice that I have previously (work etc) the reason I offered advice here is I believe the original diagnosis and treatment was wrong. The reason for PP (potassium permanganate) is to set back the external bacteria and inevitable parasites that will be there and to take some of the slime away. The "without flash" pic shows a slime coat pattern that is worrying. I do agree the fish is in a poor state, but believe the risk is worth it, furan may take too long to get the upper hand.


...He is in QT now. He put up a bit of a fight and gave me a good splash I took that as a good sign. He now just sits on an angle and does not move now that he is in this tank. He really does better with other fish around but whatever.You have to consider your other fish, by putting this fish in with them you have put these fish at risk, even though you have now removed it back to qt. Keep a very watchful eye on your existing stock for similar symptoms, I hope you are lucky here.


...Also if you look at the first photo of him he had that weird mark on his body That could have caused an infection maybe. ...looks more like physical damage through handling etc.



I kind of want to try and get another wild discus but I'm so scared this will happen again. I'm a bit turned off of shipping fish right now. But this was the first bad experience out of the 16 fish I have had shipped to me. so 1 out of 16 is not bad. The person I got trooper from said I could have credit but would need to pay for shipping. I'm not sure it is worth it.
PersonallyI would wait until this is sorted before getting any new fish. I would also consider getting any new fish from people who have a demonstrable record of shipping.


...And while a 2ppm dose of PP is usually pretty safe with a healthy fish, this fish is anything but healthy. Judging by the photo's I've seen, in it's current state I would say the fish's chances of surviving the treatment are 50-50.As I said in my 1st post, I'm not optimistic, but discus, and particularly wilds, are as tough as they come. In the end it is up to the OP to make a call on the advice offered.

[snowflake311]

Well I lost the fight. I Pm Eddie last night and he said to add some salt to the tank along with Furan-2 (I did not have that). So I said what the heck I will give it a try so he had merto and 2tsp aquarium salt per 10gal. He was swimming around a little last night so I thought it might work. Well I go to look at him and he is gone. I'm a bit upset but not surprised. He tried so hard. I checked and I got him on Aug 4th and he made it this long.

Yeah I know having sick fish in with healthy fish is risky but I think this guy had an infection brought on by the very stressful shipping ride. I was surprised he made it this long and that he lived throw the shipping. I bought this fish from a sponsor and it is not his fault the bag got a hole he used 2 bags but it looked like the Dorsal Ray ripped both. The bag was just big enough for the fish to fit in and the box was pretty small too. I'm going to talk to him again and see what can be done.

Thanks everyone for your help. you guys are great.

[Jennie]

Awe, so sorry snowflake.



Well I lost the fight. I Pm Eddie last night and he said to add some salt to the tank along with Furan-2 (I did not have that). So I said what the heck I will give it a try so he had merto and 2tsp aquarium salt per 10gal. He was swimming around a little last night so I thought it might work. Well I go to look at him and he is gone. I'm a bit upset but not surprised. He tried so hard. I checked and I got him on Aug 4th and he made it this long.

Yeah I know having sick fish in with healthy fish is risky but I think this guy had an infection brought on by the very stressful shipping ride. I was surprised he made it this long and that he lived throw the shipping. I bought this fish from a sponsor and it is not his fault the bag got a hole he used 2 bags but it looked like the Dorsal Ray ripped both. The bag was just big enough for the fish to fit in and the box was pretty small too. I'm going to talk to him again and see what can be done.

Thanks everyone for your help. you guys are great.

[Eddie]

Well I lost the fight. I Pm Eddie last night and he said to add some salt to the tank along with Furan-2 (I did not have that). So I said what the heck I will give it a try so he had merto and 2tsp aquarium salt per 10gal. He was swimming around a little last night so I thought it might work. Well I go to look at him and he is gone. I'm a bit upset but not surprised. He tried so hard. I checked and I got him on Aug 4th and he made it this long.

Yeah I know having sick fish in with healthy fish is risky but I think this guy had an infection brought on by the very stressful shipping ride. I was surprised he made it this long and that he lived throw the shipping. I bought this fish from a sponsor and it is not his fault the bag got a hole he used 2 bags but it looked like the Dorsal Ray ripped both. The bag was just big enough for the fish to fit in and the box was pretty small too. I'm going to talk to him again and see what can be done.

Thanks everyone for your help. you guys are great.

Sorry to hear Sarah, definitely a hard fight when the fish is weak from a shipping accident.

[peterhql]

I bought this fish from a sponsor and it is not his fault the bag got a hole he used 2 bags but it looked like the Dorsal Ray ripped both. The bag was just big enough for the fish to fit in and the box was pretty small too. I'm going to talk to him again and see what can be done.

Thanks everyone for your help. you guys are great.


Off topic, I think every discus I've ordered was at least 4-5 bagged. Isn't that standard practice? If he was only double bagged... I dont want to stir the pot but... It's such a heartache and waste.

[snowflake311]

Off topic, I think every discus I've ordered was at least 4-5 bagged. Isn't that standard practice? If he was only double bagged... I dont want to stir the pot but... It's such a heartache and waste.

I have only ordered discus once before this and they were in like 5 thick bags too. They were also In a big box with lots of extra room that was all padded very well. This one was not packed as well imo but it was just one fish. Other fish I had ordered were in 2 or sometimes 3 depending on the fish.

He said I can get credit for the fish but have to pay shipping. I don't know if it is worth it I don't want to go throw this again. Should I try again?