Feedback needed from those who have successfully treated gill flukes

[Jennie]

In the past week or so I have had 1 discus who flashes more than normal and another who breathes more rapidly than others. All water paremeters are ideal, fish eat normal, feces normal. Ive tried using aged water when do water changes, and this didn't make a difference either. So last night I thought what the heck, it's got to be gill flukes, I'll dose with pp. Right after the dose, allot more twitching and fin flicking(not breeding behavior)took place. That made me think the flukes were irritated by the meds. This morning the PE who is the one that was breathing problems is breathing normal and the abdtb hasn't flashed yet since I've been watching. After reading up from others that gill flukes come back with a vengance or they think their gone but after treatment is finished the problems start up again, I need to know how to completely kill this pest. Best and safest meds to use if pp is not good enough. I'm going to try to get to 3 days without a wc so the meds take effect, but if that's not good idea I need to know.

[pcsb23]

When you say pp do you mean potassium permanganate as that is the normally accepted abbreviation? Going by your post I am guessing that it is not potassium permanganate but prazi pro?

Personally I have not had great success with prazi pro, though I have had very good success with straight prazi, particularly when dissolved in DMSO.

PP (aka Potassium permanganate) will work too, but you will need multiple treatments a day or two apart.

Flukes are very difficult to eradicate 100% no matter what med you use.

[Jennie]

Yes I meant prazi pro.

[Jennie]

what is dmso? sorry not up on all abbreviations.

[pcsb23]

what is dmso? sorry not up on all abbreviations.
DMSO is a solvent, dimethylsulfoxide, if you choose to use this, use the smallest amount you can. There are some reports of it having adverse affects on fish - though I have used it with success with both prazinquantel and flubendazole.

[Jennie]

Sounds a little scary but will read up on it. I understand that all fish have flukes but just trying to make them more comfortable. Now if I can just get some decent heaters for my 120 that work longer than 12 hours.:(

[mmorris]

DMSO is a solvent, dimethylsulfoxide, if you choose to use this, use the smallest amount you can. .

Am I right in thinking that vodka works?

[Jennie]

at this point for "me" today, Vodka sounds like an awsome idea. LOL. I heard you euthanize fish with vodka and alkaselter so... not sure about that.
Am I right in thinking that vodka works?

[pcsb23]

Am I right in thinking that vodka works?With prazi to some extent yes, again just use enough to make a paste ... doesn't work with flubendazole.


at this point for "me" today, Vodka sounds like an awsome idea. LOL.:bandana:


I heard you euthanize fish with vodka and alkaselter so... not sure about that.Vodka (or any alcohol) would kill a fish in high enough concentrations but it would definitely not be humane so best left in the drinks cabinet. As for alka seltzer, again it can be used but you may find it is put to better use if you over indulge in the Vodka yourself ;)

[peterhql]

If anyone's been successful treating with Prazi, could they post their treatment schedules? I'm currently on Day 3. I've read on forums that it should be 3 days on 4 days off for 3 weeks.

I'd love to hear from anyone that can definitely say "I got rid of flukes with prazi only and this is how I did it" I don't think anyone's really said that... maybe not possible?

Also is it temp sensitive, light sensitive?

[Jennie]

I'd like to hear that too or if other secondary treatments work. As martha said the prazi knocks them back and good clean water helps. I already have good water. I also read that 1 treatment last 3-5 days. In which I'm trying to go three days before changing water.
If anyone's been successful treating with Prazi, could they post their treatment schedules? I'm currently on Day 3. I've read on forums that it should be 3 days on 4 days off for 3 weeks.

I'd love to hear from anyone that can definitely say "I got rid of flukes with prazi only and this is how I did it" I don't think anyone's really said that... maybe not possible?

Also is it temp sensitive, light sensitive?

[pcsb23]

If anyone's been successful treating with Prazi, could they post their treatment schedules? I'm currently on Day 3. I've read on forums that it should be 3 days on 4 days off for 3 weeks.

I'd love to hear from anyone that can definitely say "I got rid of flukes with prazi only and this is how I did it" I don't think anyone's really said that... maybe not possible?

Also is it temp sensitive, light sensitive?Technically it is possible to get rid of flukes 100%, however practically it is extremely difficult and unnecessary.

When treating it is about getting the fluke population back to a level the fish can deal with. With any treatment it is rather pointless if the root cause is not identified and corrected. The vast majority of discus have an ambient level of parasites (flukes etc) and can live perfectly well with them, when the fish get stressed the flukes can take hold.

That said this is how I have virtually eliminated flukes using prazinquantel, which is very expensive in the UK!!

Start with a massive wipe down and water change, clean everything! Mix the prazi with DMSO to create a paste. Dose is 2mg/litre (7.6mg /US Gal). Temps normal around 29C (84f). The paste is then diluted with water, I use RO but any will do. Add an airstone if one is not there already.

Day 1 after w/c add prazi mix to the tank.
Day 2 after 50% (minimum) w/c, re dose to full strength
Day 3 50% (minimum) w/c only
Day 4 after 50% (minimum) full dose
Day 5 after 50% (minimum) dose to full strength
Day 6 50% (minimum) w/c only

Day 7 after 50% (minimum) w/c full dose
Day 8 after 50% (minimum) w/c, re dose to full strength
Day 9 50% (minimum) w/c only
Day 10 after 50% (minimum) full dose
Day 11 after 50% (minimum) re dose to full strength
Day 12 50% (minimum) w/c only

Day 13 after 50% (minimum) w/c full dose
Day 14 after 50% (minimum) w/c, re dose to full strength
Day 15 50% (minimum) w/c only
Day 16 after 50% (minimum) full dose
Day 17 after 50% (minimum) re dose to full strength
Day 18 50% (minimum) w/c only

Between each set of treatments I will scrape and scope the fish, if I feel it is needed I will do a fourth set.

The tank needs to be wiped down each w/c, fish fed lightly but regularly. DMSO and prazi has an "interesting" smell ;) (but not as bad as DMSO and flubendazole!!) I must stress that the minimum amount of DMSO should be used, just enough to form a paste!

As I have stated I have not had good success using prazipro ...

Hope that makes sense.

[peterhql]

Thank you so much Paul. Especially for taking the time to type all that out!
I am on Day 3 so tonight I will start with the WC no dose, and follow your schedule to the T. I hope it works.

I am currently using prazi in powder form. I'm using about 1.8 grams for a 90 gallon tank. I believe I'm double dosing, at least according to the directions on the label. I'm mixing this in a bottle with aquarium water and I'm just shaking the heck out of it. I have alot of surface agitation and aeration so I feel that the powder is being completely dispersed.

[pcsb23]

Thank you so much Paul. Especially for taking the time to type all that out!
I am on Day 3 so tonight I will start with the WC no dose, and follow your schedule to the T. I hope it works.

I am currently using prazi in powder form. I'm using about 1.8 grams for a 90 gallon tank. I believe I'm double dosing, at least according to the directions on the label. I'm mixing this in a bottle with aquarium water and I'm just shaking the heck out of it. I have alot of surface agitation and aeration so I feel that the powder is being completely dispersed.If it is pure prazi then you are indeed over dosing, I calculate that the volume of the tank is around 342 litres so you would need 0.7 of a gram of pure prazi. Mixing the prazi with water will work, it is just not quite as effective as quickly if that makes sense. The good thing is you eliminate the small risk that may exist using DMSO.

[nc0gnet0]

Pcsb23

Do you beleive that the DMSO might actually be helping the prazi do it's job? I know DMSO is particularly effective as a penetrant (used to use if on horses).

[pcsb23]

Pcsb23

Do you beleive that the DMSO might actually be helping the prazi do it's job? I know DMSO is particularly effective as a penetrant (used to use if on horses).Yes I do.

[Jennie]

so the prazi liquid form would not work. I have that and not the powder. Though there is relief already in the fish

[peterhql]

I assume that any product in its powder form will be more cost effective than a liquid form. So you'd probably save some money too. I got mine from Dan @ eliteaquaria.

I purchased the 50g bottle. If I don't overdose and I kept my tank half full... or treated in a smaller tank. It would last A LONG time.

[Jennie]

Thanks P!


I assume that any product in its powder form will be more cost effective than a liquid form. So you'd probably save some money too. I got mine from Dan @ eliteaquaria.

I purchased the 50g bottle. If I don't overdose and I kept my tank half full... or treated in a smaller tank. It would last A LONG time.

[nc0gnet0]

Yes I do.

Now that is interesting. Actually makes sense, I never even considered the combination until you brought it up. I could see how the two together could be synergistic. I wonder about acute and chronic toxicity to DMSO, have any test been performed that you are aware of or is this like usual, the hobbiest doing there own experimentation (out of neccessity)?

While I have your attention, Pcsb23, are you aware of anyone trying tri-cide neo on discus yet?

[pcsb23]

Now that is interesting. Actually makes sense, I never even considered the combination until you brought it up. I could see how the two together could be synergistic. I wonder about acute and chronic toxicity to DMSO, have any test been performed that you are aware of or is this like usual, the hobbiest doing there own experimentation (out of neccessity)?Untergasser makes an oblique reference to DMSO being a risk to fish, and I know of a couple of people who have had problems wehn using it with flubendazole. Because of the suspected risk I have always used the bare minimum of DMSO. In the case of the people who have had issues their aquariums had what I would describe has high bioload in the water column, i.e. they were not clean. I suspect that DMSO & high bioload in the water column = low O2.

Whenever I have used it with prazinquantel or flubendazole I have not experienced problems, only good results. Fortunately it has been some time since I needed to use it, and fingers crossed it will be some time more yet!


While I have your attention, Pcsb23, are you aware of anyone trying tri-cide neo on discus yet?I am not familiar with this, sorry.

[scottthomas]

so the prazi liquid form would not work. I have that and not the powder. Though there is relief already in the fish

I dont have much faith in the liquid Prazipro. I had one well known breeder tell me that I would have to use it double strength to probably have any effectiveness at all against flukes.

I did rid my tanks of flukes using AP Anti fluke. If you are not succesful using pure Prazi I might suggest trying trichlorfon (Anti-Fluke). It worked for me.


Good Luck. They (flukes) can be a real pain in the...

[nc0gnet0]

I dont have much faith in the liquid Prazipro. I had one well known breeder tell me that I would have to use it double strength to probably have any effectiveness at all against flukes.

I agree. However, in discuslover65's case, seeing how the prazipro provided some relief, its a good indicator that she is in fact up against flukes. IMO it's about all it's good for.

[Jennie]

Yes still tonight I am home from work and they aren't flashing and PE breathing very well. But considering others have had relief followed by failure that is why I want to knock it back hard.
One person suggested the powder form was more cost effective but didn't mention if it was more potent. Im very leery of the paste mix, with my luck, I'll wake up to dead fish. so the third med suggested sounds as though it may be promising. The fish definitely don't have worms and are healthy in every other way.
I agree. However, in discuslover65's case, seeing how the prazipro provided some relief, its a good indicator that she is in fact up against flukes. IMO it's about all it's good for.

[peterhql]

I believe the aquascience powder I use to be relatively pure/potent. I'm currently on day 3 of a treatment with it. I have: cardinals, cories, a pleco, and discus in this tank. I've had no deaths from any fish, and only one discus out of many ( don't want to say ) is showing stress. They get a break today after a WC so I hope it will be okay.

This is under more than a double dose of the stuff. So at least in my case it seems to be gentle enough.

The prazi has completely opened up all clamped gills in all my discus.

[Jennie]

Are you dosing every day after wc or letting one dose ride 3 days?

I believe the aquascience powder I use to be relatively pure/potent. I'm currently on day 3 of a treatment with it. I have: cardinals, cories, a pleco, and discus in this tank. I've had no deaths from any fish, and only one discus out of many ( don't want to say ) is showing stress. They get a break today after a WC so I hope it will be okay.

This is under more than a double dose of the stuff. So at least in my case it seems to be gentle enough.

The prazi has completely opened up all clamped gills in all my discus.

[peterhql]

I gave them a 50 percent water change one out of the 3 days. And I redosed for that amount. Since I was double dosing, I did a normal dose for the 50 percent i changed out. I can't comment on the effectiveness of what I'm doing. I'm just saying that none of my fish have died, and only one discus is showing stress. Nice thing about prazi, is the surprise tapeworms you get. So far I've witnessed 3 tapes come out. I think something is eating them as soon as they come out, so there could have been more while I was at work/sleeping.

Starting tonight I will be following Paul's treatment schedule he posted earlier in the thread.

[peterhql]

I wanted to give an update on my prazi treatment for flukes. I'm into my second week of treatment. I've been trying to follow Pauls schedule, but I've been straying a little bit.

edit, thank you paul!

Basically I've been medicating 1.5-2x the regular dosage for 2 full days and then water changing 80-90 percent on the 3rd day, giving them a rest for 24 hours before I redose. During a waterchange I wipe down everything I can possibly reach in the tank, and I've cleaned out the filter 3x at least.

During the first week, the scratching very quickly resumed after a WC. It would almost as quickly subside after I put the prazi back in. I kept at it though and now I'm happy to say that there is no more scratching after WC and when there is very little medication in the water. I'm going to keep the treatment going for one more week and cross my fingers.

So.... there may be hope for those of us battling flukes.

I tried Anti fluke life bearer. It was very hard for me to get the timing down, and it was very very hard on my fish. They would get very skittish and I have my tank in the living room so they would get startled everyday every hour. I could not stomach treating them with that hard stuff any longer especially if I didn't know if I was timing it right.

[Jennie]

I actually stopped treatment a few days ago and so far no reoccurance! May have been a skin mite of some sort. This with using just prazipro. The abdt was the only one flashing. The pe cleared up imediately after treatment started with the abdt taking longer.

[jpancal]

I have treated gill fluke with parasite clear and had success.

[Eddie]

I have treated gill fluke with parasite clear and had success.


Did you use a microscope to identify your fish had flukes?

[danjadragonfly]

hello eddie again, good to see you being so active on the forum i love that.
I will attache a question about gill flukes I actually send to a breeder near by yesterday, but his answer was a little off. (he mostly let me feel like I am a little stupid and treat my fish grappy -which is really not the case - I am geman decent and a clean tank freak :o and he always tells me he is to busy which is fine be me but than do not offer "help at any time" whenever you sell discus from your hatchery to me, sorry I had to say it here :angry:)
Well, here it is:
1. If I discovered symptoms of Gill Flukes on one of my discus in the display tank at least I believe that is Gill flukes, because his one Gill is not moving, but I cannot see anything attached to it.

1.A. Do I have to treat the whole tank or only the one fish separate in a QT?
1.B. Is Formalin 37% the right treatment of choice or do you advise anything else?
I know the right diagnoses is the most important to treat them right and to not give them unnecessary stress.
I do not have a microscope yet, but as soon as I can I will get one.
For the between time I would really like to get your advise, because I added some younger fish to the main tank and do not want these absolutely clean fish to get anything. Unfortunately I did not discover this problem with the one fish before I put the youngsters in. :waaa:

[Eddie]

1. If I discovered symptoms of Gill Flukes on one of my discus in the display tank at least I believe that is Gill flukes, because his one Gill is not moving, but I cannot see anything attached to it.

First, you won't be able to see flukes with your eyes, they are too small. :o

Second, one gill functioning can be different things, not 100% gill flukes every time. I'd make sure water is pristine, ensure all parameters are in check, good o2 in the tank.

1.A. Do I have to treat the whole tank or only the one fish separate in a QT?

If it were gill flukes, then yes, you would want to treat the entire tank to prevent recurrence.

1.B. Is Formalin 37% the right treatment of choice or do you advise anything else?

Formalin is a decent treatment for gill/body flukes but it is not my first choice. I prefer Life Bearer Anti-Fluke which is Trichlorfon.

I know the right diagnoses is the most important to treat them right and to not give them unnecessary stress.

Yes, this is correct. The best method of treatment is to not have to treat at all. Quarantine, proper diet, clean water are methods of prevention.

I do not have a microscope yet, but as soon as I can I will get one.
For the between time I would really like to get your advise, because I added some younger fish to the main tank and do not want these absolutely clean fish to get anything. Unfortunately I did not discover this problem with the one fish before I put the youngsters in.

So you skipped quarantine? This happened after you added the youngsters?

Eddie

[danjadragonfly]

Hello Eddie,
like I said in the nutrition thread - I am german decent and therefore a clean tank freak - professional test kits, regular testing, pristine water (good WC like advised by different breeders like wattley etc.), bare bottom tank.

Otherwise, I might was not very clear, I raised this youngsters from a size of a dollar coin to a size of 3.5 - 4 inch in a separate tank (you could call it QT tank) from May till now and though I could put them in my main tank now.
I also needed the extra tank (30 Gallon) to shift some very beautiful but also some very nasty territorial (since they coupled up) Blue Diamonds out of the main tank and into the extra tank.

Before I put the younsters in the main tank I also kept them with one young fish from the main tank in the extra tank like advised by breeders - to see whether some contamination would occur. I did that for 2 weeks and nothing came up. (2 weeks because I found so many contrary info about that that I took the middle way and did it for 2 weeks instead of 1 week or 2 month like some advise.)

More importantly - how to diagnose gill flukes if you do not have a micro?

Do you means I should just treat them all? Did I understand that right?
Any regime I have to follow to also kill the once which are still in eggs?
I heard that the eggs will be not effected?!:confused:

[Eddie]

More importantly - how to diagnose gill flukes if you do not have a micro?

Really its a shot in the dark if you don't have a scope. You would need to make an educated guess based on symptoms. One gill function, fine, thats one possible symptom. Does the fish flash, dart or scratch on objects. Does the fish make any yawning motions with its mouth or appear like its coughing. Are any other fish affected?

Generally discus can tolerate flukes but once they reach high numbers, it can break the fish down. Other stressors will also make the fish break faster. If you have one fish using one gill, I wouldn't jump to any chemicals as of yet. Thats just my opinion. Also, do you have other species in the tank?

Do you means I should just treat them all? Did I understand that right?
Any regime I have to follow to also kill the once which are still in eggs?
I heard that the eggs will be not effected?!:confused:

"IF" you had to treat for flukes, it would be best to treat the main tank as it is the fluke playground. Yes, eggs are unaffected by treatment so you would have to follow a strict cycle. The cycle would depend on what chemical, and then there could be other factors like temp, ph, etc.

[danjadragonfly]

He does not scratch or anything, he is just hidding most of the time. He had some darting going on till I made a PP treat 2 weeks ago in the whole main tank (just thought might be the mildest to begin with in case there are other things responsible :o)
Darting stopped after that.
All other fish are really fine, no symptoms at all and eating like pigs. ;)

I do have a waste brigade in there since I established the tank 3 years ago. 4 small clowns and one small white tip pleco for the algae and extra bottom waste and white cloud for the top of the tank - they basically eat the BW at the time I was feeding them - the once which stay on the surface of the water - hope you know what I mean.
nothing else.

I guess I will just watch for a while longer.

When would you say I would do something? Which symptoms?

I really do not want to endanger my youngsters any further.

Should I take some precaution measures?

[Eddie]

So you hit the tank with PP for flashing, good information to bring up initially. Alright, lets start from square one.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545

Eddie

[danjadragonfly]

OK Eddie, you do not want it differently :D:p Now let's go through with it. :antlers:

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

one adult discus -

just got to notice it 2 weeks ago

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Had some darting 3 weeks ago from this one adult discus - appeared after I came back from vacation (my husband did his best doing WC while I was 6 weeks in vacation, but .... you never know)

Situation NOW:
one gill plate not moving, some hidding except to feeding times, means is eating normally,
no color changes as far as I see it - its a dark red fish anyways, like the sweetest cherries in the hottest summer, therefore we named him/her Cherry ;)



3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Thought some PP bath 2 weeks ago after discovering it can not be bad. :o




Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

70 gal, 2.5 year established. 6 younster discus added 2 weeks ago, 2 adult discus, and the cleaning brigade I mentioned earlier

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

bare bottom, WC all 3 days 50%, No aging sorry - have not the facility to do so. But we are moving soon into a house and I will make a set up for it.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __85.4 today 11:00 am___:D always try to maintain between 84 - 86

- ph _____

- ammonia reading _0.25 __11:00 am today - last WC 3 days ago, today will be done
NOTE:_had a spike to 1 after PP treatment for 3 days but I did WC 50% every day - now back to normal

- nitrite reading ___0_

- nitrate reading __0__

- well water __NO__

- municipal water ___YES_

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
NO

[Eddie]

Okay, my initial thoughts, lets get the water parameters in check. Keep up with water changes and let the biobed re-establish or catch up. ;) Also, you did not post your PH, what is your PH. Do you have chlorine or chloramines in your tap water? What type of water conditioner do you use?


Eddie

[danjadragonfly]

Oh, thanks god found it. It is sometimes difficult for me to keep up with the technical part of the forum. I could not find the thread anymore:o

Sorry, Eddie, my PH is 7.2

chlorine or chloramines in your tap water? - yes I have but the intensity changes by season it seams.

water conditioner do you use? - I only use Prime by Seachem

Thanks anja

[Eddie]

Oh, thanks god found it. It is sometimes difficult for me to keep up with the technical part of the forum. I could not find the thread anymore:o

Sorry, Eddie, my PH is 7.2

chlorine or chloramines in your tap water? - yes I have but the intensity changes by season it seams.

water conditioner do you use? - I only use Prime by Seachem

Thanks anja


Cool, I'd still just keep up with the water changes. ;)

[Ruffy]

Hi all,

I need to know what brand or specific prazi formula to use on my fish, i think i might have some gill flukes, and is it better to quarantine for treatment or leave in tank and treat....only cuz im scared for all my other discus when only 2 is breathing from one gill....need advice asap....please help!!!

[Eddie]

Hi all,

I need to know what brand or specific prazi formula to use on my fish, i think i might have some gill flukes, and is it better to quarantine for treatment or leave in tank and treat....only cuz im scared for all my other discus when only 2 is breathing from one gill....need advice asap....please help!!!


Hey there John, might want to start a new thread and fill out the disease questionnaire. It will give everybody some better insight on whats going on.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545

Eddie

[Jennie]

Here is my update on treating for flukes. With my original treatment of prazipro and heavy salt dosage My fish had relief for a few days but the symptoms of rapid breathing and flashing alays came back. So upon reading the archives, Someone else had success with using Lifebearer I decided to try that. With Much appreciated help/advice from Eddie I started the treatment and progress was as follows.
the evening before I drained and cleaned the tank walls, heaters and uplift tubes thoroughly in my 125. I dropped the temperature in the tank to 80 degrees and turned the lights out for the duration of treatment
Day 1: 120 drops added taking into consideration decorations and tank not being topped completely.
Day 2: same treatment of 120 with NO waterchange.
Day 3: No meds administered and NO waterchange
day 4,5 and 6 Large waterchanges performed, no meds administered.
now on day 5 and 6 the flashing and heavy breathing returned on 2 of my fish. I cleaned the tank thoroughly again, removed all wood decorations and cleaned my 3 sponge filters. This treatment had zero affect on my bio.
Day 7,8 and 9 repeated the same as day 1,2 and 3 except dosed the 125 drops instead of 120 because I removed the tank decorations.
Day 10, 11 and 12 repeated the same as day 4, 5 and 6.
On days of second round of LB the flashing was almost unnoticeable and the breathing was 50% better on the one affected the most. My Bio still unaffected.
Day 13,14 and 15 repeated the same as day 1,2 and 3. No flashing but one fish still a bit breathing faster than others.
day 16, 17 and 18 clean water clean water clean water.
The end results are I have had no flashing in my tank from any fish BUT my PE is still breathing faster than the others. Though her swollen gills are gone, her appetite is very good and she is active she is left with somewhat heavier breathing than the others. I can only conclude she has some gill damage due to me wasting precious time on prazipro and waiting for the LB to arrive in the mail. If anything changes and the flukes return I will update this post further.

[DRESDEN]

Hello Jennie. Did the flukes ever return? Did you use 1 drop or 2 drops per gallon? My discus are breathing hard and flashing a little. Thank you Dresden

[Jennie]

nope!:) 1 drop per gallon taking into consideration excess driftwood yadda yadda.... which I say leave in the tank for tratment