Discus Breathing Hard and Fast

[jpancal]

This is my first post in Simply Discus and I need some help! I have a 60 gallon Tall Aquarium with 9 juvenile discus (2.5-4"). I know I'm overstocked but I intend on getting a bigger aquarium very soon. I have 2 Fluval 405 Canister filter on the aquarium, 2 bubble makers, and a titanium heater. The aquarium is planted and contains driftwood. I do two 50% water changes a week with RO/Tapwater mix. I always dechorinate with Prime or AquaSafe.

I originally had 4 discus in the tank and added 5 recently. They came through the mail and they looked healthy and active. I did not quarantine (I know I should have) and added them directly to the main tank. They were doing fine and I treated the whole tank for parasites just in case, I used Parasite Clear, as always. After 2 weeks I noticed some of the fish started breathing faster and more heavier. I was concerned that they might have a parasite infection and treated again with Parasite Clear. The next day they still seem to be breathing fast and heavy. Also, I did notice some excess slime on them. They are still eating .

On top of this problem my tank started leaking from the bottom and I used silicone on the outside to make it stop leaking. I think I'm going to go get a new tank and switch everything out but I don't want to stress the discus since they are already sick. I don't understand how this could happen since the tank is fairly new. I keep the tank on the stand it came with (Marineland). I

I'm a nursing student and classes just started and this is really stressing me out.I feel like this discus tank is taking over my life. If anyone has any advice it would greatly be appreciated. I don't know what to do at this point.

Tank parameters:

Temp: 87 F
Nitrates: Under 10 ppm always
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
pH: 6.8

[joshuajames]

i would do at least 50% water changes daily until you get your new tank.get a long tank instead of a tall also. some good old fashion water changes goes a long way with sick or stressed discus.may not even need meds.good luck

[Eddie]

Juvies breathe fast anyways. Treating just in case is a big no no, especially with Parasite Clear (shotgun medication). Its like shooting a gun in the dark with a bunch of people in front of you.

[jpancal]

Thanks for the information. I don't think its just them breathing fast because they are young. It seems as they are breathing very heavy and deep. I watch my discus very carefully and this is a change in their normal breathing habit. I don't want to ignore it and then later this turns into a major infection of some sort. I have had bad luck in the past with my fish getting infections.

Is there any other reason they could be breathing fast?

I have been doing water changes every other day and all water parameters are normal.

[matt2426]

i have a suggestions im not an expert or anything but does your ph fluculate. have you tested your tap water to see if the ph stays the same after aging it for a day. this could be a cause of heavy breathing if your ph doesnt stay the same you may need to age your water that was part of my problem when i first started or you may need more airigation hope this may help

[boxters]

my opinion is that these are juveniles, which as stated below do breath heavier than normal. If the fish are eating and not turning dark, hiding in a corner or sitting near the top then i feel they are fine. i would add some salt at 1 tablespoon per 20 litres and lower your ph very slowly to 5. At a ph of 5 if they do have something, the water will take care of it without meds

[Eddie]

Can you get a short video clip of the fish breathing?

[nc0gnet0]

I would think lowering your PH to 5 would make 50% daily water changes a real PITA for a full time nursing student (aging barrels, chemicals, etc).

I would leave the water as is and up the water changes and perhaps drop the temp down to 85 slowly and see if this helps. Make sure that the output of your canister filters is near the surface and creating some surface agitation.

[jpancal]

Can you get a short video clip of the fish breathing?

I'm going to work on getting a video clip. Hopefully I will have it up soon.

I think is could be pH changes because I have been trying to lower my pH and make the water softer. I have been adding RO water to the tank to try to do this. Is is possible I'm adding to much RO water at once? How slowly should I try to lower the ph?

I just switched over to a new tank since the old one was leaking. I never want to do that again! My plants suffered a bit and don't seem to be doing so well since i left them out of water for a few hours (I put the roots in water but not the whole plant).

Thanks for all the great advice. I'm still trying to figure out the problem with my discus.

[jpancal]

Here is the link to the video clip. Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKAYSQsBM1k

[Eddie]

I'm going to work on getting a video clip. Hopefully I will have it up soon.

I think is could be pH changes because I have been trying to lower my pH and make the water softer. I have been adding RO water to the tank to try to do this. Is is possible I'm adding to much RO water at once? How slowly should I try to lower the ph?

I just switched over to a new tank since the old one was leaking. I never want to do that again! My plants suffered a bit and don't seem to be doing so well since i left them out of water for a few hours (I put the roots in water but not the whole plant).

Thanks for all the great advice. I'm still trying to figure out the problem with my discus.


Why are trying to make your water softer? Do you have wild caught fish or are you trying to breed them in a community tank? :confused:

[jpancal]

I was trying to make the water softer because I was told that ideally that's was discus need. I have not had good luck with keeping fish. Any type of fish. I have started keeping discus for 6 months and ran into many problems. I wanted to make sure water quality was not the reason for them getting sick all the time. So I wanted to make make the water ideal for them.
Should I not try to lower the pH or make the water softer?

[joshuajames]

i would not go messing with your ph.and if this is your first time with discus i would suggest making your tank bare bottom. there is a lot of work with dicus to begin with.a lot more if you are going to keep them in a planted aquarium.

[Eddie]

I was trying to make the water softer because I was told that ideally that's was discus need. I have not had good luck with keeping fish. Any type of fish. I have started keeping discus for 6 months and ran into many problems. I wanted to make sure water quality was not the reason for them getting sick all the time. So I wanted to make make the water ideal for them.
Should I not try to lower the pH or make the water softer?

Do not mess with your water, it does more damage than good. Constant changes in water parameters are stressful to the fish. This leads to other complications. Sort out your water and you'll be surprised.

[jpancal]

Do not mess with your water, it does more damage than good. Constant changes in water parameters are stressful to the fish. This leads to other complications. Sort out your water and you'll be surprised.

By any chance did you get to see my video?

[mikel]

I saw your nice planted tank. The fish that you have are all very young, and of various quality. I wish that you had avoided doing what I did and that was to go for young discus and planted tank right from the start. To grow out discus so that they reach their most beautiful and magnificent size, your really need very good quality water (from frequent WC) and heavy feeding of good food (like the mixes you see in the food section). The feeding leads to dirty water, and only a barebottom tank and at least 50% wc daily can give you the chance to feed intensely AND to clean off and remove all the food and debris so you have pristine water to prevent sickness. It really is a PITA, but that's the way discus is grown, as far as I know. Once the fish are fully grown and mature, then you can ease off the feeding, and introduce the plants, gravel etc .

If the fish dont eat enough (because they were always ill, or were not fed adequately due to fear of fouling water), they will not grow to their fullest potential (that's what a stunted fish means). Some people keep dicus for the fish (like me) and dont mind a BB tank, and some keep discus as part of a beautiful tank. The choice is up to you, but your fish will reflect this. Good luck:) mike

[joshuajames]

yes nice looking tank. good luck with it!

[scottthomas]

Do not mess with your water, it does more damage than good. Constant changes in water parameters are stressful to the fish. This leads to other complications. Sort out your water and you'll be surprised.

+1

Juvie discus do not need low pH and super soft water. Probably just stressing them out. Many people actually swear by hard water and pH 7+ is best for growing out fry and juvies.

[jpancal]

+1

Juvie discus do not need low pH and super soft water. Probably just stressing them out. Many people actually swear by hard water and pH 7+ is best for growing out fry and juvies.

I didn't know that. I wont be altering the pH now. The RO unit I have takes for ever to produce water. The time it takes me to do water changes with RO is to long. Now that I havn't been using as much RO the fish seem to have slowed down their breathing.

In additon, I had a question regarding leveling a tank. My tank is not exactly level from side to side. I tried to level it with plastic shims but it's not perfect
( I have already had one tank leak and had to replace it). I want to know if the tank is not level will to cause it to leak?

Also, how frequently can you feed frozen bloodworms to discus? I feed currently feed frozen brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms, and tetra flake food.

[scottthomas]

I personally rarely feed FBW to my discus anymore. Mostly just to a spawning pair as it doesnt foul the water much. I dont think FBW have that much nutritional value. Again JMO.

[Eddie]

I personally rarely feed FBW to my discus anymore. Mostly just to a spawning pair as it doesnt foul the water much. I dont think FBW have that much nutritional value. Again JMO.

Ditto

[lpiasente]

I am not sure if it is just me but I think these discus are a bit skinny. How often do you feed them?

[boxters]

i disagree about the ph thing. My grow out tanks are between 5 and 5.5ph and my juvies grow like there is no tomorrow. They are 10 weeks old and already 10cm+

[jpancal]

I am not sure if it is just me but I think these discus are a bit skinny. How often do you feed them?


I feed them 3-4 times a day. I feed frozen brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms, and discus flake food, tetra flake food. I feed them Hikaria frozen brine shrimp (3 pieces) and same with the bloodworms. Do you think I should feed more?

[scottthomas]

i disagree about the ph thing. My grow out tanks are between 5 and 5.5ph and my juvies grow like there is no tomorrow. They are 10 weeks old and already 10cm+

How do you get your pH to 5.5? That is often the problem some people have. I agree that discus can also thrive in the lower pH ranges. However, they do not like big pH swings that usually accompany adding acid or Ro water etc. to lower pH. Having stable water parameters is the best method IMO.

[jpancal]

That's exactly the problem I had trying to change my pH. My discus reacted badly towards the pH drop and in result started breathing more rapidly. From what I have heard consistent water parameters are better. I might add a little RO water because my tap water is very hard but other than that I'm not going to try to lower my pH.

[Eddie]

That's exactly the problem I had trying to change my pH. My discus reacted badly towards the pH drop and in result started breathing more rapidly. From what I have heard consistent water parameters are better. I might add a little RO water because my tap water is very hard but other than that I'm not going to try to lower my pH.


Hard water is not a problem unless its concrete. Don't change to no RO too rapidly.

[jpancal]

Ok, so the fish seem to be doing fine but now I noticed that a pair of my discus laid eggs. They are in a community tank. Is there any chance the eggs will hatch or survive?

[Eddie]

Ok, so the fish seem to be doing fine but now I noticed that a pair of my discus laid eggs. They are in a community tank. Is there any chance the eggs will hatch or survive?


Slim but possible. Lots of variables; could be 2 females, male might not be doing his job, TDS might be too high, etc.

[jpancal]

Sorry but what is TDS?

[Eddie]

Sorry but what is TDS?


http://theaquariumwiki.com/TDS

[jpancal]

Thanks. How much time does it take for the eggs to hatch? This pair had laided eggs once before but eat them before they hatched.

[Eddie]

Thanks. How much time does it take for the eggs to hatch? This pair had laided eggs once before but eat them before they hatched.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=26679

[scottthomas]

Seems like your fish are doing fine if they feel well enough to lay eggs. Congrats.

[nc0gnet0]

Seems like your fish are doing fine if they feel well enough to lay eggs. Congrats.

I have often wondered if this was a sign of heathy happy fish in a healthy tank......if so I am doing pretty good. If discus were chickens I would be a rich man......now, getting them to hatch is another matter altogether.......

[jpancal]

I have a big problem. My blue diamond discus has these whie patches over his body. It looks the his scales were scraped off. I noticed some scales coming off a few days ago but thought he just hit himself on something. This discus is actually apart of the pair that laid eggs just days ago (the eggs were eaten).

I also noticed a few days back that my red marlboro's color was fading ever so slightly but just thought that it might be the diet. So I started to feed more hikari discus pellets. I'm concerned this might be caused my body flukes, since I have heard that it causes discoloration and scale loss. Or it could be a bactieral infection, honestly as this point I don't know. All water parameters are normal, discus is eating, and seems to be happy.

In addition, I think a few discus are still breathing faster than normal. So discoloration of scales or loss and faster than normal breathing on others. Any clue what I might be going on?

I'm planning on doing a 50% water change tomorrow and adding salt. Any other suggestion?

[Eddie]

Pictures would be good. Any reason why you can't do a water change today? Also, you mentioned in somebody elses post that you successfully treated flukes using Parasite Clear. What changed?

[jpancal]

Pictures would be good. Any reason why you can't do a water change today? Also, you mentioned in somebody elses post that you successfully treated flukes using Parasite Clear. What changed?

I will post pictures as soon as possible. I can't do a water change tonight, i had clincials from 4am-6:30pm. I'm pretty much running on zero.

I plan on using parasite clear but I'm not sure if it is body/gill flukes. It presenting with different symptoms as last time (the scraped scales). This time its a whole different batch of discus. Plus last time I had my microbiology professor help identify the organism which was killing my discus. We took samples from their gills and cultured them on agar plates. Then we took a look under the microscope (mostly she did all the work).

None of my fish have died from this yet. I really want to make sure what they have before I treat. This time I don't have my microbiology professor and a means to get samples off my discus. I would rather get some advice and try to work from there. I just don't have time I use to.

[Eddie]

Cool, pictures will be really helpful.

[nc0gnet0]

We took samples from their gills and cultured them on agar plates.

And from this the prognosis was gill flukes? Odd, isn't this the protocol to culture bacteria?

[Eddie]

And from this the prognosis was gill flukes? Odd, isn't this the protocol to culture bacteria?

Maybe the flukes were playing in the bacteria. LOL :o

[jpancal]

I'm trying to upload a video on youtube since I cannot attach a picture due to size limitaions.
We cultured the samples thinking it was bacteria. I figured it had to be a gram negative or positive organisms. We found some bacteria but we also found parasites (gill flukes). It took alot of time just idetifying all the organisms we found.

[jpancal]

Here is a video of the fish on youtube. I also included the picture of fish that I think were breathing hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li4HRF2N1wE

[Jennie]

I cannot comment medically but am interested in following this thread, as my Penang did the same thing, and I thought it was flukes. I treated her for such and she recovered instantly. I'm not saying go treat for this, But I am interested in what Eddie has to say about it. Of course I think its like 11 p.m. in okinawa so might have to wait for him to respond

[jpancal]

Update, my blue diamond is now doing this werid shaking thing. I have seen him do something similiar when he is breeding.

[nc0gnet0]

Update, my blue diamond is now doing this werid shaking thing. I have seen him do something similiar when he is breeding

Discus shimmy and shake all the time, it's not always a precursor to disease. Most often its either breeding behaviour or one of there dominance rituals figuring out the tank pecking order.

I am not sure how much wieght I would put on the culturing of bacteria in agar I would put as far as bacterial infections go. At any one given time you can find most strains of bacteria in a healthy fish, its the amount that is critical. Finding flukes is a different matter. Just curious, where these flukes alive in the agar and how long did you incubate your culture (just curious how long the little suckers could survive)?

[jpancal]

Discus shimmy and shake all the time, it's not always a precursor to disease. Most often its either breeding behaviour or one of there dominance rituals figuring out the tank pecking order.

I am not sure how much wieght I would put on the culturing of bacteria in agar I would put as far as bacterial infections go. At any one given time you can find most strains of bacteria in a healthy fish, its the amount that is critical. Finding flukes is a different matter. Just curious, where these flukes alive in the agar and how long did you incubate your culture (just curious how long the little suckers could survive)?


Some where alive. The agar is nutrient rich and provides a host for it to live on. We incubated the agar dish which the culture. 24 hours later under the microscope.

[nc0gnet0]

Some where alive. The agar is nutrient rich and provides a host for it to live on. We incubated the agar dish which the culture. 24 hours later under the microscope.

Yes, I know the agar is nutrient rich, We use it from time to time to culture mold spore samples for identification. What I find interesting is that the flukes could survive on it....fascinating.....

[jpancal]

Does anyone have any idea to what my discus has? I posted a video so there is a better idea of what is going on. I added parasite clear and salt in my tank this morning and did a 50% water change.
My aquarium guy came over today and told me he has seen similar marks on goldfish and they don't seem to make it. I'm very worried this might spread to my other discus if not treated properly.

[Eddie]

Does anyone have any idea to what my discus has? I posted a video so there is a better idea of what is going on. I added parasite clear and salt in my tank this morning and did a 50% water change.
My aquarium guy came over today and told me he has seen similar marks on goldfish and they don't seem to make it. I'm very worried this might spread to my other discus if not treated properly.


Where's the video?

[nc0gnet0]

Go back a page Eddie its there........

[Eddie]

Go back a page Eddie its there........


Thanks Bud, missed it earlier.

It definitely looks like the BD is displaying breeding behavior. Its doing the bowing and slapping. If the shakes are what concern you, thats normal too. Now the scratches on the side are hard to see. It looks like it was scratched up on something but I can't tell. Are the scrapes deep? Is there any fungus developing on the fishes side? Aside from the scratches, the fish looks be fine. Has bright clear eyes, his fins are erect and seem to be acting normal.

Eddie

[jpancal]

Thanks Bud, missed it earlier.

It definitely looks like the BD is displaying breeding behavior. Its doing the bowing and slapping. If the shakes are what concern you, thats normal too. Now the scratches on the side are hard to see. It looks like it was scratched up on something but I can't tell. Are the scrapes deep? Is there any fungus developing on the fishes side? Aside from the scratches, the fish looks be fine. Has bright clear eyes, his fins are erect and seem to be acting normal.

Eddie

Thanks for the response Eddie. The fish seem to be fine other than the stratches. He eats like a pig and ast normal. The scratches are not deep and I do not see anything developing on them. It just seems like the scaled are coming off. My discus have been fighting alot but this just seem like a alot of scratches from fighting.
Do you think just adding some salt and keeping a eye on it is better?

[Jennie]

Eddie, what about the heavy breathing?

[jimg]

I looks to me like he scraped his side on something.Is it only on one side? I see you have quartz rocks in the tank I was told awhile ago that it's not a good practice to keep rocks and other hard objects other than wood in a discus tank.

[Eddie]

Eddie, what about the heavy breathing?


The breathing looks a little fast but looks like some tension in the tank might be the cause.

Eddie

[jpancal]

I think my fish might have some type of parasite. Today when I was doing a water change I noticed these small little worms swimming in the water. Nematodes?
I did some research on them and from what I have read they don't seem to be harmfull to fish. Although it is still a good idea to treat (what I read online).
I wonder if the nematodes are causing all these problems in my tank (scaled coming off, discus breathing faster, one discus color fading, one discus eating but staring into corner).
My largest discus in the tank seem to have a little concave look to him around his stomach. I could be paraniod but could nematodes cause this?
What could these small little worms be?
And how can I treat for them?
I have anti-parasitic food that I started feeing them today but they spit it back out. I'm not sure what else to do.

[Eddie]

The small worms are planaria and its due to overfeeding and lack of tank maintenance. Keep up with regular tank wipe downs and make sure you dont have any food caught in your filter. Doing good wipe downs prior to draining the tank will help kick down the numbers. Don't worry about any anti parasite food as planaria do not infect discus internally.