Finally a batch

[Andree]

The discus laid eggs and had wrigglers the day before I went on vacation and then to a family function - maybe being gone was a good thing.

However, I did wrap the eggs with the mesh from Lowes and bought the foam to split the tank. Somehow the female moved the wrigglers through the mesh to the piece of wood! (The day before we left).

I had a friend feed them a quarter cube of frozen blood worms each morning.

I thought I would see if anyone thinks this looks like good progress - and if anyone thinks the fish are nice looking!

I'll try putting them in my directory:

http://www.shopviewit.com/Discus/

Pictures are from wriggler day - August 15 (day one?)

Then August 19 and 24 (today). I guess they are nine days old?

Trying to get them to eat frozen BBB - have some live ones for tomorrow. It's hard to tell if they are eating.

Thanks!

Andree

[DerekFF]

I think theyll come out lookin good. Your fish look good, not show fish or anything, but nice hobbyist fish. Have fun raising them! Im in the same boat at about 16 days old.

[Andree]

Thanks Derek!

I guess they are really 12 days old. I'm trying to get them to eat BBB...

I'll try and attach pictures - it's hard to get them down to the right size.

As they grow older I guess you are supposed to cull them - I'm not sure what to look for.

The male is a wild caught green so it'd be nice to get a generation or two out of him.

[Eddie]

Outstanding! Thats a nice pair too. Is one of the fishes a leopard or turq? One definitely looks like a wild RSG. Awesome mix to work with!

Eddie

[mmorris]

Well done! I really like the male. They should take to the live bbs just fine.

[Keith Perkins]

Indeed, very nice looking pair. Just a point of information, discus "birth" is normally considered the day they go free swimming, for stating age purposes. So fry 3 days old have been free swimming 3 days. Just helps when trying to ask questions or describe a problem down the road. Good luck with them.

[Andree]

Thanks! We were out of town when they went free swimming. She had moved them to the piece of wood on Saturday-Sunday, and when we got back on Thursday night they were attached. I had someone drop in a quarter cube of blood worms each morning for a minimum feeding..

The fry are eating the BBS (which I can only manage to make in once a day in the morning) but also seem to pick off the bottom before I siphon.

[Keith Perkins]

Awesome you came back to such good news. ou can only make it once a day, why is that? How are you making it? I make a batch in the morning when I get up and another one in the evening, about 12 hours later. I use the attached method except I use quart mason jars. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=566827&highlight=kitchen+sink#post566827

[Andree]

I've been gone over twelve hours a day...is it really bad to eat BBS after a few hours? I have some good flake food they munch on too. They look pretty good I think...

I put them on a little web cam so I can check on them once in awhile:

http://shopviewit.com/WebServer/

It's not the greatest quality.

[Eddie]

What do you mean by is it bad to eat BBS after a few hours?

[Andree]

Not me, I don't eat them! I meant...I read that the BBS are best when they are young, as in twelve hours old. This is why people hatch them twice a day.

Mine are ready at, say, seven am but today I might not be returning until after nine pm. Is there a problem feeding the morning BBS then? I've been rinsing them twice. They seem to like them.

Sometimes I keep them in the fridge.

[Andree]

There seem to be some answers on this thread:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73677&highlight=store+bbs

[Eddie]

Not me, I don't eat them! I meant...I read that the BBS are best when they are young, as in twelve hours old. This is why people hatch them twice a day.

Mine are ready at, say, seven am but today I might not be returning until after nine pm. Is there a problem feeding the morning BBS then? I've been rinsing them twice. They seem to like them.

Sometimes I keep them in the fridge.


No, you can feed them later. They recommend you feeding them within 12 hours of hatching.

[Andree]

Thanks Eddie! I've been home all day and they are eating shaved blood worms, beef heart and the BBS. I enlarged their area and the parents had a bit of a fight. The poor little ones were all hunkered down on the bottom. I separated them for a few hours and now they seem fine again .

[Andree]

Here is a current picture, I guess they are going on four weeks. They are eating frozen BBS and chopped beef heart and bloodworm.

Anything else I should be giving them?

I remove all the food and about 2.5 gallons after each feeding and replace with tap or RO alternately.

The female gets upset periodically then she seems to get over it.

I have a 50 gallon I can set up but I hate to move them until I have to!

Thanks,

Andree

[Eddie]

They look great! All the best

Eddie

[Andree]

Hi again,

Well...they re five weeks old and some seem to by dying. Turning dark and listless, floating, etc.

I'm feeding chopped frozen bloodworms and some frozen BBB and they re eating for the most prt.

Is this a trend - should I add something to the tank?

It's half RO, half tap, temp 82, the PH might be a bit high between 6.8 and 7.2.

Maybe I should get more RO?

Thanks!

Andree

[Andree]

Someone told me to try Metronidazole...

[Eddie]

Some people say fry can be raised in RO, I've seen it done but the food source must be complete, i.e. full of nutrients/vitamins. At that age, they should be taking other foods aside from bloodworms and I am not sure what BBB is. Generally if fry are dying at the 4 or 5 week mark, its either bacterial or parasitic. Whats your water change routine? How many fry and how big is the tank?

[Andree]

BBB is Baby Brine Shrimp, I've been using frozen but mostly they are frozen bloodworms and beef heart with a little Optimum flake food.

I only have half RO - the water here is very hard. I

It's a 35 gallon tank and I usually take out 2.5 gallons in the morning and sometimes in the evening when I siphon.

Down to about 30 fry as I've been losing four a day for the last couple of days.

I had dropped the temperature to 82 but have raised it again to 85.

Most of them are eating well tonight. I might give them another dose of Metronidazole tomorrow.

The parents seem peaceful and the fish aren't eating the slime coat anymore.

[Eddie]

BBB is Baby Brine Shrimp, I've been using frozen but mostly they are frozen bloodworms and beef heart with a little Optimum flake food.

I only have half RO - the water here is very hard. I

It's a 35 gallon tank and I usually take out 2.5 gallons in the morning and sometimes in the evening when I siphon.

Down to about 30 fry as I've been losing four a day for the last couple of days.

I had dropped the temperature to 82 but have raised it again to 85.

Most of them are eating well tonight. I might give them another dose of Metronidazole tomorrow.

The parents seem peaceful and the fish aren't eating the slime coat anymore.

Yeah Baby Brine Shrimp is actually BBS. I wouldn't be treating with metro at all. Sounds like your not changing enough water. 4-5 week old fry need to be fed well and the tank needs good water changes and cleaning daily. More than likely bacteria related.

[Andree]

Geez, I am losing about four a day - I found this link:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=63675&highlight=float

But since I'm working such long hours right now it's not much of a help.

Raised the temp, doing more changes.

What about the best food for this? I'm switching off frozed worms, beef hard and baby brine shrimp...

[Andree]

After doing all sorts of things - the above, water changes, etc., I think they had gill flukes. I finally took the swimmers and put them in their own tank although there are only two five-week old juveniles. I did try Quick Cure but it didn't seem to have much effect. I also discovered that for gill flukes you lower the temperature and raise the O2.

I tore down the old tank and set up a new one and am starting over, I hope - so far the male and female are not getting along, but we'll see.

I'm sure I'll separate the fry before four weeks this next time around!

[Andree]

Hi,

I am back to square one, week five - and the same things are happening. My tank parameters should be good, I've been adding more RO the last couple of days in case the slightly filtered tap water is an issue - PH about 7, the TDS is 102 now. I've been feeding a mixture of beef heart, frozen brine shrimp (ran out of live two days ago), and Ken's little pellets. There is a sponge filter and an air, temperature is about 82, raising it slowly to 85.

I did treat with Quick Cure three times last week (every other day) but have been having the same floater issues so I am wondering if it's bacterial (as Eddie suggested).

Last time I did a round of Acriflavin and I could try it again this time.

I'm attaching two pictures; one floating and others on the bottom. I just fed them and I think they are looking for the beefheart shavings.

Thanks,

Andree

[kaceyo]

Try treating with formalin at 3 drops per gallon. Quick Cure has formalin in it, but you can't add enough to kill the flukes without ODing the fry on Malachite Green. Keep alot of air going, add extra while using formalin. Do a large wc just before dosing. If you can, do another 8 to 12hrs after dosing. Do the same routine in 24hrs.
That should stop the deaths if it's flukes.
At that point you can start a med routine to rid the tanks of flukes.
Good luck,

[Andree]

Thanks! I found some at Blue Sierra in Factoria (what a mess with traffic).

I just moved them to this tank yesterday so it's pretty new (I took the water off the top of the 55 gallon and added some tap and some RO)

Of course I got back and the parents had layed eggs in the 55 gallon. I had treated them with Quick Cure along with the young.

Should I treat them with 4 drops/ gallon too? (The bottle says 3 drops).

Thanks,

Andree

PS the other ones are eating shaved beef heart although seven are swimming at the top. 64230

[mmorris]

What size tank are they in and what is your water change regime? I haven't had much luck with Quick Cure and flukes. I'm not convinced this is flukes, and four drops per gallon sounds like an overdose. What is your water change regime? How much, how often? Is the water aged? Heated to the same temperature as the tank? I do two 80% wc's daily.

[Andree]

Thanks - I added 3 drops (assuming the idea is aggressive treatment) to 16 gallons (they are in a 20 gallon).

While some are looking better this typical pattern (as in August) seems to be established where there were four dead in the morning and now there are several more floating.

I just moved them into this tank using aged water from the 55 gallon tank they were in.

I slowly added RO so the TDS now is 94, no nitrates, PH is 7.2 - 7.6. I think that is high although I raised it gradually. Temp is 84.

I could ad some discus buffer and drive to get more RO.

There is a lot of air (long strip on the right).

I'm thinking I should take the sick ones out or set up the 30 gallon and put the healthier ones in there, although I don't have that much water which matches what they are in.

[kaceyo]

What size tank are they in and what is your water change regime? I haven't had much luck with Quick Cure and flukes. I'm not convinced this is flukes, and four drops per gallon sounds like an overdose. What is your water change regime? How much, how often? Is the water aged? Heated to the same temperature as the tank? I do two 80% wc's daily.
I'm not convinced it's flukes either, all we can do is guess. IME flukes is the most common problem with very young fry and it's easy to find out for sure and quickly by using formalin.
I would stop messing with the water, skip the RO, stop adding buffers and give them straight tap. Giving them RO for one wc and tap for the next, mixing them in the fish tank back and forth and adding buffers is not keeping a stable environment. Fry don't need RO anyways, and Seattle water is very soft already and great for breeding or raising fry as is.
Was it formalin that you found and added 3 drops of? Was that 3 drops total or per gallon?I'm not sure what your asking about adding 4 drops to, the parents tank? Which instructions called for 3 drops per gallon? Quick Cure is one drop per gal. and most brands of formalin call for less.

[Andree]

I would stop messing with the water, skip the RO, stop adding buffers and give them straight tap. Giving them RO for one wc and tap for the next, mixing them in the fish tank back and forth and adding buffers is not keeping a stable environment. Fry don't need RO anyways, and Seattle water is very soft already and great for breeding or raising fry as is.

It hasn't been going back and forth quite like that. We are actually in Fall City and the water isn't that great. There is a filter on the tap water from ACE hardware.

To give you an idea of the water, even after adding the filter on the cold side I have to filter water through a Brita filter for my espresso machine or it clogs up every couple of weeks with mineral content (or whatever that stuff is...white buildup).

Was it formalin that you found and added 3 drops of? Was that 3 drops total or per gallon?I'm not sure what your asking about adding 4 drops to, the parents tank? Which instructions called for 3 drops per gallon? Quick Cure is one drop per gal. and most brands of formalin call for less.

Sorry, I was tired and hit the wrong button - I added 3 drops/gal (not 4) of formalin last night, and just added 2 drops/gal after feeding and removing the uneaten food (a little beef heart and frozen brine shrimp).

I haven't added any water today.

The parents are doing fine in the 55 gallon, and I also have a tank with some cardinals, plants, etc which is fine.

It just seems as if they get this four to five week syndrome.

Maybe I left them with the parents too long although they all were doing well together. I added a tank separator at 4 weeks, now it is 5.5 weeks.

[mmorris]

I'm with Kacey - stop messing with chemicals, including Quick Cure. It might be useful if you could answer the questions I posted earlier. What is the tds of your water without ro? The GH?

[moik]

Anti-Fluke lifebearer for flukes at 1 drop per gallon have the best reslults I have seen..after 24hrs..do a massive water change and repeat treatment every other dya for atleast a week..

[kaceyo]

First, Britta filters are almost useless. You'll spen more on replacement cartridges every two weeks than you would on a good system. Google "Air, Water & Ice", look it over and give them a call. You want a 10" three stage carbon block system (not RO) and they will set you up for a good price. Well under $100.
Whatever way you go with the water, make sure you're adding the same kind to the tank every time.
I'd have waited 24hrs to add more formalin, with a wc in between, as suggested. Hope I didn't confuse you with my directions. Do a large wc tonight and see how things look in the AM. Hopefully there will be no or low # of deaths. Let us know.

[Andree]

So, five drops per gallon of Quick Cure? Is that right? Ouch! That ought to kill 'em. I'm with Keith - stop messing with chemicals. It might be useful if you could answer the questions I posted earlier. What is the tds of your water without ro? The GH?

No, 2-3 drops Formalin which I bought yesterday. Nothing else. Quickcure didn't work.

The TDS is 134 out of the tap, GH I need to check.

I had several stores check the water quality and they have all said it was fine, they can't figure out why this would happen.

I added RO originally as per the many posts I've read on the list regarding hard water and fertilizing and hatching eggs. It's pretty obvious by other signs in the house we have hard water - I've just lived here for three years and can tell the difference.

So now that I've done the second dose of Formalin as per Kacey's instructions, I'll need to do a water change eventually. I usually take the water out of the big tank and move it "downstream", so to speak.

I'm going out now and wonder if I should by a sterile setup for them.

I'm cringing at the new batch of eggs but hopefully I can get this figured out. I've kept discus since the seventies and bought this mated pair a year and a half ago.

As one post mentioned, the parents should be clean and I thought they were.

I put on the eggs last night - here is a closeup of the female with the eggs. Her gills look a little frayed.

[Andree]

Try treating with formalin at 3 drops per gallon.

Do a large wc just before dosing.

"If you can, do another 8 to 12hrs after dosing. "

Do the same routine in 24hrs.

Ah - maybe you meant large water change after 12 hours, not more Formalin....

As for the Brita, since I tried it a few weeks ago I haven't had to tear the machine apart...

[kaceyo]

Yes, I meant another wc in 8 to 12 hrs and redose in 24 hrs. Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more specific. It should still work to find out if flukes is the problem.we'll see in AM if things are better.
Brita's will pull a small amount of particulate matter out then plug up. After that the water will flow around the cartridge doing no good. It may remove enough particulates to keep your espresso machine from plugging up if you change the cartridge often, but it's not improving your water quality enough to make water healthy for you and your fish. The carbon in them is way too small an amount to be usefull for removing chemicals, which is the real test of a water filter.


Try treating with formalin at 3 drops per gallon.

Do a large wc just before dosing.

"If you can, do another 8 to 12hrs after dosing. "

Do the same routine in 24hrs.

Ah - maybe you meant large water change after 12 hours, not more Formalin....

As for the Brita, since I tried it a few weeks ago I haven't had to tear the machine apart...

[Andree]

OK - while I've been using liquid testers I grabbed some test strips as the store didn't have a GH test kit. (I know it's not as accurate)

Tap water
GH 75-150
Chlorine 0
KH 120-180
PH 7.8

I did a water change (brought from the big tank). Gave them some live bbs and Ken's mix which they seem excited about. A few are still failing so I moved them to another container.

So when do I treat treat them again - tomorrow morning (that would be 24 hours from this mornings treatment).

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciated it!

(ps the Brita is just an espresso machine experiment, not a permanent solution)

[Elite Aquaria]

First, Britta filters are almost useless. You'll spend more on replacement cartridges every two weeks than you would on a good system. Google "Air, Water & Ice", look it over and give them a call. You want a 10" three stage carbon block system (not RO) and they will set you up for a good price. Well under $100.

Kacey,

Not sure if you were aware but I redistribute all Air Water and Ice Products...

[kaceyo]

Kacey,

Not sure if you were aware but I redistribute all Air Water and Ice Products...

No, I didn't know that Dan. They are a great company and set me up years ago with the same system I suggested for Andree, at nearly half the price the aquarium specialty outfits wanted.

[kaceyo]

OK - while I've been using liquid testers I grabbed some test strips as the store didn't have a GH test kit. (I know it's not as accurate)

Tap water
GH 75-150
Chlorine 0
KH 120-180
PH 7.8

I did a water change (brought from the big tank). Gave them some live bbs and Ken's mix which they seem excited about. A few are still failing so I moved them to another container.

So when do I treat treat them again - tomorrow morning (that would be 24 hours from this mornings treatment).

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciated it!

(ps the Brita is just an espresso machine experiment, not a permanent solution)

how are they doing yhis morning? Any better?
I wouln't treat them again for now, just do a large (at least 50%) wc. Use tap water as doing wc's from another tank defeats the purpose. You reintroducing pathogens from the other tank, also you want water as pure and clean as possible.
How long after the second dose of formalin did you move the fry into another tank?

[nc0gnet0]

Based on my limited experiance and a bout of the identical symptoms, I am guessing this is bacterial and not flukes. My suggestion would be kanamycin. A relatively simple experiment might be to try some meth blue to see if it provides temporary relief (not a cure) from the problem.

[Andree]

Hi,

I was just posting an update - the sicker ones didn't make the night, and there are five more at the top. The others are eating the live BBS. They also eat Ken's Golden Pearls.

I just ordered a RO unit from Rocky Mountain Discus, I'm not sure if it shipped yet.

I'll try the water change with tap although I'm thinking I should go with another Formalin dip too...it's hard to say what do do.

I suppose I could do a water change and try something else, although I hate "throwing" things at them.

It's hard to watch them go through this though.

They were doing so well with the parents sometimes I think I should have left them there - does anyone do that?

I added another picture of the tank although it looks similar to yesterday!

Thanks,

Andree

[kaceyo]

Sorry to hear that. Secondary bacterial problems may be what you're dealing with now. Regardless of how you do with this batch, I think you need to rethink the methods you're using if you want to be successful at it.
All wc's should be done with clean un-used water, never from another tank. The reason some people remove fry from the parents very young is to keep them away from any pathogens the parents may pass on. Using water from tanks with other fish defeats the purpose.
Large wc's need to be done daily in most setups with very young fry, along with wipe downs of the inside tank walls and bottom.
When you get the RO unit, which I'm not sure you need, just use RO waste water to remineralize and use a TDS meter (around $20) to make sure the water has the same TDS every time. Don't add anything else to the water at least untill you get more familiar with the water chemistry.
HTH's

[nc0gnet0]

Are you aging your water and matching the tank parameters before performing a water change?

[Andree]

Hi Kacey - that is what I am setting up (although I didn't think the big tank water was that bad). I thought gill flukes moved from fish to fish but weren't "free swimming".

I have a TDS meter (tap is 134ish, I think it varies as the central water is on a well). I'll put it in a barrel like a lot of people do and then move it to the tanks independently.

Meanwhile I can try the methyline blue now or maybe find some kanamycin this afternoon.

[kaceyo]

Hi Kacey - that is what I am setting up (although I didn't think the big tank water was that bad). I thought gill flukes moved from fish to fish but weren't "free swimming".

I have a TDS meter (tap is 134ish, I think it varies as the central water is on a well). I'll put it in a barrel like a lot of people do and then move it to the tanks independently.

Meanwhile I can try the methyline blue now or maybe find some kanamycin this afternoon.
The big tank's water may have been fine for the fish that were in it, but fry need water that's as clean and pristine as possible. That's why you read about people doing two 90% wc's a day and wiping the tank walls down daily with young fry. If a small wc with water from another tank would work, we wouldn't go to all the extra trouble.
Most of the flukes will be on the fish, but there are some in the water column, along with many fluke eggs and other pathogens that don't bother the older fish but will be hard on fry.

[Queenserpentine]

Andree, can I get you to do a check for me please?
Check the tap PH , then the RO PH!
When put together, can you tell me what the PH is?
If they are floating at the top It would tell me its naturally to do with the aeration of the water or the parameters. The tank is very clean.
I would also suggest not moving them as much as stress can also be a huge factor into recovery or death.
I've left my parentals in with the fry for up to 5 weeks.
Check to see if the water is soft enough hun. try and keep it on the softer side

[mmorris]

What was your wc regime before you started the med regime? How much and how often? Were you always using water from another fish tank or were you using tap?

[Andree]

Wednesday they were doing fine in the 55 gallon with a poret wall between them and the parents. I took water from that tank (to which I had been slowly adding tap (going along with the theory to get them used to it)) and put it in the 20 gallon tank. I moved them and their sponge filter over. The last couple days it's been tap water I've been aging.

They started acting up on Friday and have been going downhill since. I was using water from that tank and some straight tap. When testing the parameters seem to be the same.

As for the PH, the tap is 7.6 (dark blue), the RO I picked up is about 6.4, and when I mix them together (.25 cup each) it's between 7.2 and 7.6 (light blue).

I stopped by the Fish Store in Seattle and the person there is breeding wild discus. He was convinced bacteria is not the problem (doesn't think it's an issue) but that parasites are. He leaves his fry with the parents until they are the size of a quarter or bigger to take advantage of the qualities in the slime coat.

There are a lot of opinions out there - I'd will love to find out what my answer is as I found more at the top (hard to watch).

[Andree]

By the way, the Fish Store won't sell Kanamycin, they say they can only use it for themselves.

I have some Maracyn 2 on hand...

[nc0gnet0]

By the way, the Fish Store won't sell Kanamycin, they say they can only use it for themselves.

I have some Maracyn 2 on hand...

Bah, rubbish, they just don't carry it. Seachem makes a product called kanaplex which contains kanamycin, although its very pricey. Much better getting it from Dan at elite aquaria (one of our sponsors) much more affordable and fast shipping.

Guessing between parasites and bacteria in fry is just that...a best guess. Leaving fry in with thier parents has it's plus's and minus's. Yes they may benenfit from feeding on the parents slime coat (if they allow it), but once they start foraging for food on the bottom of the tank it makes them suspectable to any internal parasites the parents might have had (ie eating poo). And then you always live in fear of coming home and finding the parents just got sick of the little pests and ate/killed them.

[Andree]

I found some Kaplex after calling around... I don't think I have time to mail for Kanamycin. It's about $8.00. The same store recommended PraziPro which I thought was really expensive, so thought I'd stay with Formalin for Flukes for now.

[kaceyo]

Don't mix the Kanaplex and Formalin together. Complete the treatment you want to go with before starting another med.

[Andree]

OK, so - this shop gave me the rest of their bulk Kanamycin and told me to treat at 1/8 tsp per ten gallons. I might have seen a greater dosage recommendation someplace.

As five more were gone I did a huge water change and added it. I think I am seeing some improvement although there are still several at the top.

Trying to interest them in some live BBS.

[Andree]

Didn't find this searching the forum, but found it on Google - Eddie's recommendation:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?81628-Kanamycin-dosage-for-internal-Bac-infection

I do have some little spoons for other meds. That thread says 1 tsp per ten gallons....so maybe I should up the dosage.

[nc0gnet0]

As Kacey said I would have give them a break between meds. You not going to see immediate results with any anti-biotic, it will take 3-7days. Your much better off getting a small digital scale for dosing meds.