Very shy discus and I'm a discus virgin!

[dsmturbo23]

Hey guys and gurls,

This is my first post here. I have been in the fish game since i was 15 and my focus has always been and still is African and American Cichlids.

My grandfather raised discus and I was always completely fascinated by them, but at the same time i was always scared away from raising them becasue of all the horror stories I heard about maintanance and water quality issues. As most of you well know, the American and African cichlid is a very hardy fish and there isnt much that can kill these creatures so being spoiled that way, I was to timid to make the leap into the larger cichlids like Discus.

Now i have and this is what I have going on.

I have a 45 gallon set up and currently have 5 discus in it. Just got four of them about 3 days ago (got them for 15 bucks each at 2.5" and Im being told this was a slammin deal) I currently have 2 red/orange looking pigeonbloods, two of these blue guys with black vertical stripes, and this cream colored guy with reddish fins. They are all awesome looking and generally healthy.

My issues is that they are all clumped together in the top corner of the tank, and occasionally they swim down to the bottom corner. They get very dark and they just sit there fluttering their fins and not moving. any time one of them does come out to swim, the minute i get within 10 feet of the tank its game over, and back to the corner.
I watched a couple of them grab some food from around the corner. I am reading this is normal, and I just wondered if anyone have any tips to make these guys a little less stressed. Any help would be wonderful!

[jimmyjoe]

Well Turbo, I think everyone that reads this are going to ask the obvious, what are your parameters. Temp, ph,dh, nitrates nitrites, all you can tell barebottom, BB, gravel, filtration etc. Anything you can tell everyone, other fish in the tank just anything and everything. Then maybe someone that reads what you have can give there opinion. HTH. Jim

[dsmturbo23]

ok here is what i got.

Ammonia .25 ppm
pH 7.4 (these guys are raised and bred locally with the same pH level)
Nitrite/Nitrate 0/0
we have hard water up here in Buffalo, im not sure of the exact number, I dont usually test for it. Is this something to worry about with Discus, or will they adapt?


i have a white marble chip bottom, blue backgroug, and an Aquaclear 50 filter. only other fish is a bushy nose pleco who is doing just great.

temp fluctuates because of the temp changes here, anywhere between 82 and 86 (mostly 86 throught the day)


hope this is what you guys need

[dsmturbo23]

I should also mentioned I added some Aquarium salt to ease some stress. about 3/4 the recommended dosage because truthfully, I am not sure of their fragility

[mmorris]

It doesn't sound like the tank was cycled. Is that right?

[dsmturbo23]

had it up for 4+ weeks with tetras and one blue diamond....all of which died of severe ammonia poisoning (like we are talking 5.0) and all died within 4 hours. Never saw that before but in my defense I have alwasy had cichlids and they seem to thrive in anythign short of sewer water!. right not the nitrate/nitrite levels are low because i clean the gravel constantly and do routine water changes tri weekly. let me know what you think!

[RudeDogg1]

It doesn't sound like the tank was cycled. Is that right?

+ 1

[lissy]

Hi this is Lissy from Australia and I am new to this sight. I could be wrong but looking at your parameters your ph could be a bit high just gradually lower it to about 7. I think ammonia is less toxic in a more acid environment. Look at why. Sounds like too many fish and tank has not cycled properly. Do a water change and turn lights low till fish settle in. Is your filtration too strong? aim it away at glass. Enough oxygen in tank? hope this is some help!:):

[mmorris]

I would be doing some pretty heavy wc's every day until you get that tank cycled. You should be reading "0" for ammonia and nitrites and something under 10 or so for nitrates. I wouldn't mess with adjusting ph - it's just opening a can of worms, I think. It may not take long for the beneficial bacteria to catch up to the additional bio-load if you had put them in with the first one and you had the first one for a while. If they are dark and clumped in the corner they probably aren't 'generally healthy.' It appears you didn't quarantine the new ones, which is a risk.

[lissy]

Hi again! If you have watched around the corner and they are eating when your not there they are prabably scared. You say you have a white substrate well that throws back a lot of light. What substrate if any was in their original tank? I def agree about water changes though. If you are getting readings on a test kit the amount is prob higher than reading! the salt won't hurt with osmoregulation the opp happens with salt and the water that goes through the fish is not as much and will give organs a break. Also if there is bugs they will not survive. Less stress on the fish. B vitimins can help stress as well as plants on top of tank water. Believe me fish are not dumb especially discus, they can see you so slow calm movements with no loud bangs. continue to use prime with water changes. Have you ever thought about ro and a denitrater like aquaripure! excellent! I own one.

[dsmturbo23]

ok guys. here it goes. Im going to take blame here and admit ignorance on the suject of these fish. I am guessing that my water was just stressing the living hell outta these fish. Im guessing you were all right about the cycling. I have moved all the fish into a well established tank for the time being so that I can get the parameters proper.

I am leaving the bushy nose pleco in there to help the biological filer. I did about an 85% water change and im letting the tank go on for at least a few weeks by itself.

Heres where i need help!

I lost one of the discus to what i am going to call ammonia poisoning. He developed these spots on his sides that looked like burns and he clamped up and ended up swimming on his head for hours...then he dide. It was not fun to watch.

The other guys i got into the other tank for the temporary, and they seem to be doing a little better. Their colors are a little lighter now (but still dark) and they are swimming around a bit. They still hide under the rocks together, but ill take that over death at this point.

One of them has a clamped fin but is using the other side fin just fine. One of the pidgeons has those same burn looking marks and his fins are a little tattered. I have added mucho stress coat hoping to counter act the effects of these "burns" and repair the fins. In the mean time, what can i do to help them heal? and also what exactly am i looking at> am i right to assume its ammonia related? never seen this on any african or south american...but again..they can live in anything short of sewer water!

[Skip]

I have a Aquaclear filter also.. take out the Activated Carbon (some say the carbon burns the fins).. you can buy an additional BIO MEDIA part to put in there.. so you would have sponge and TWO media layers.. put in a Hydro sponge filter also.. you need to have plenty of BIO filteration..

don't mess with ph, esp with chemicals.. just do water changes..

i too had the ammonia problem, they were stressed but i kept up with the water changes...

i asked a question about while back about what meds/chemicals you need.. the general idea.. is just PRIME, maybe salt.. and i mean maybe and keep up with Daily water changes..

mine recovered but i lost 3..

i actually have two hang on back filters with sponges/biomedia in them and two hydrosponges.. (its way over kill, but i want to start up another tank.. so i need the sponges to get the bacteria colonies on them! : ))

ps.. i have also heard/read stay off the stress coat, they produce plenty of slime.. but CLEAN WATER is the General Tonic for most problems...

Good luck, keep us posted..

skip

[dsmturbo23]

ok, so no carbon you are saying??

I use a carbon/ammonia blend in my filter (general idea here was to keep the ammonia at the lowest). Would you think that would be ok?


Also how liong would you suggest I cycle this one that I just resent. we have really hard water here but other then the chlorine here it is actually good quality. High on the Ph scale but I am thinking that a steady pH aroun 7.6 is better then messing with the pH anymore.


Also does anyone know what this white stuff is on the skin and fin areas? the burn looking marks are fading but this one guys has a white fugus looking thing, but it appeared very quickly and I just cant see it being a fungus without the other guys getting it. It is on the anal fin area and also on the skin in that area

[srusso]

Turbo, don't mess with the pH at all, put some filter media from your other tank into the one that was to be cycled. What kind of fish do you have in the other tank? Also be sure you are properly acclimating your fish to a new tank. Switching tanks is very stressful for your discus and can be fatal if the pH swing is too large. Much worse if it's a drop in pH. Do some research on discus basics here in the forum, if they are just 2.5" then they should be very young fish at the moment and should have very little of their adult coloration. Please post some pictures of your tanks and the fish, the guys you got may be stunted and will not grow very much, if at all. Hope things get better for you soon. Also the temp of the tank should be in the high 80's... Mine loved it best at 86, which makes keeping other fish in the same tank difficult or impossible for more species. IMO gravel should not be used in a discus tank as they are very messy eaters and rarely eat fast enough to catch it all. Sand or barebottem is best... Good luck, I will follow this one and help any way that I can. One additional item is to do plenty of water changes, every day at least 50% for your tank... So make sure you put some thought into how you can make that easy for yourself. B/c if it's not easy then you won't want to do them, and most people will stop after a short while. Don't take any advise from anyone outside this forum, as most people don't really know what there talking about when it comes to discus.

[srusso]

I don't mean so sound like a jerk, it's just that if you got them for so cheap then they are more then likely not been given a good start in life.

[deepflyball]

Is the bottom of your tank painted??????????????????/ I agree about the tank not being cycled. But they just might be afraid of there reflection as well

Lissy the ph is fine. Mine is 8.2 . I feel like small discus grow out better in hard water with a little higher ph.

Jerry

[Eddie]

ok, so no carbon you are saying??

I use a carbon/ammonia blend in my filter (general idea here was to keep the ammonia at the lowest). Would you think that would be ok?


Also how liong would you suggest I cycle this one that I just resent. we have really hard water here but other then the chlorine here it is actually good quality. High on the Ph scale but I am thinking that a steady pH aroun 7.6 is better then messing with the pH anymore.


Also does anyone know what this white stuff is on the skin and fin areas? the burn looking marks are fading but this one guys has a white fugus looking thing, but it appeared very quickly and I just cant see it being a fungus without the other guys getting it. It is on the anal fin area and also on the skin in that area

Best bet is to get a picture of the affected fish.

Remove the carbon/ammonia blend, add a good media and juggle the cycle with water changes. Doing daily 50% WCs will control ammonia/nitrite. The filter will cycle but it will just take longer. As others said, dont mess with your PH, just make sure its stable. Ensure new water is close to the same PH as the tank water.

Have fun!

Eddie

[dsmturbo23]

ok here is a pic of one of my pidgeons.


I feel like such a novice again. Never had this much trouble with an african or a SA... these discus are divas!!! lol


Currently my discus are residing with three very juvenile frontosas. These guys dont nip and they pretty much just play with eachother. The size of these discus seems to intimidate them right now. Im sure they will be ok for a month or so.

see the white death on their fins? im dying to know what this is... sorry about the clarity had to use my blackberry
. hope someone has some input.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/0d7e0c65c1.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[dsmturbo23]

ok also quick question.. My current bandaid tank with the fronts uses an aquaclear filter so the media isnt really interchangeable. Thinking about using some gravel or just grabing some water from that tank every other day to help speed up the process in the discus permanent( fingers crossed here) home

[Eddie]

ok also quick question.. My current bandaid tank with the fronts uses an aquaclear filter so the media isnt really interchangeable. Thinking about using some gravel or just grabing some water from that tank every other day to help speed up the process in the discus permanent( fingers crossed here) home


Its up to you but I dont like using media or anything from an old tank to help set-up a new tank as this can cause issues like disease/infection. Its like skipping quarantine.

[dsmturbo23]

well ill skip that if you advise against that. i will take the normal course and let the tank cycle for a few weeks. Ive had success with plecos cycling and i have even considered taking one of my juvenile zebra cichlids in a few days to just get the tank going.


For me this is now personal. I dont like failing with anything and especially not my fish. I just want to get this right so i can actually see these guys grow and turn their absolutely awesome colors!

[Eddie]

well ill skip that if you advise against that. i will take the normal course and let the tank cycle for a few weeks. Ive had success with plecos cycling and i have even considered taking one of my juvenile zebra cichlids in a few days to just get the tank going.


For me this is now personal. I dont like failing with anything and especially not my fish. I just want to get this right so i can actually see these guys grow and turn their absolutely awesome colors!

Sounds good. If you want to help speed the cycle, you can buy a few products that I have had success in using. Seachem Stability or Tetra SafeStart. Both of these have cycled my tank in the time described on the bottle. You have to follow the directions.

Eddie

[dsmturbo23]

Sounds good. If you want to help speed the cycle, you can buy a few products that I have had success in using. Seachem Stability or Tetra SafeStart. Both of these have cycled my tank in the time described on the bottle. You have to follow the directions.

Eddie

that was my next question. Would it be proactive to use stress zyme or safe start with discus. That answers that. I went ahead and used stress zyme to help out and i have had it going for about 12 hours now. Ill check the levels in a week and hopefully ill see progress.

Im still waiting for an admin to ok the pic i posted so you guys can diagnose the patient!

[Eddie]

that was my next question. Would it be proactive to use stress zyme or safe start with discus. That answers that. I went ahead and used stress zyme to help out and i have had it going for about 12 hours now. Ill check the levels in a week and hopefully ill see progress.

Im still waiting for an admin to ok the pic i posted so you guys can diagnose the patient!

I have never had any success with Stress Zyme. Awaiting the pictures.

Eddie

[dsmturbo23]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.3b152d5ea7.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?3b152d5ea7.jpg)

ok guys the moderators still havent ok'd the post with my picture in it so ill post a link. Hopefully this one works!

[dsmturbo23]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.3b152d5ea7.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?3b152d5ea7.jpg)

[hasitha]

Isn't that white spot looks like a fungus infection or somekind of infected wound ?

[srusso]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.3b152d5ea7.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?3b152d5ea7.jpg)

From the looks of it, this fish is stunted... I will let someone else confirm this, but I would say it is... I don't know what maybe the issue with him, but the white stuff looks like an infection. First don't blame yourself for failing at keeping discus, successful discus keeping starts with heavily fish. Next most important thing is to have clean water at all times. Then feeding plenty of food, but it must have a variety of good food also. Growing out discus has been the hardest things I have ever done in this hobby.

All of your discus should be put into QT and water changes twice a day if possible. In QT, ensure the temp is always around 86 degrees and start treatment with prazipro. Others here are more qualified to give advise on which kinds of meds you should be using for him. It may too late for these fish and you shouldn't blame your self it they don't make it. A lot of local fish stores sale discus that are on their death bed already. There isn't much that can be done to save most in this state. But get them in QT asap and start treatment.

Good luck

[dsmturbo23]

From the looks of it, this fish is stunted... I will let someone else confirm this, but I would say it is... I don't know what maybe the issue with him, but the white stuff looks like an infection. First don't blame yourself for failing at keeping discus, successful discus keeping starts with heavily fish. Next most important thing is to have clean water at all times. Then feeding plenty of food, but it must have a variety of good food also. Growing out discus has been the hardest things I have ever done in this hobby.

All of your discus should be put into QT and water changes twice a day if possible. In QT, ensure the temp is always around 86 degrees and start treatment with prazipro. Others here are more qualified to give advise on which kinds of meds you should be using for him. It may too late for these fish and you shouldn't blame your self it they don't make it. A lot of local fish stores sale discus that are on their death bed already. There isn't much that can be done to save most in this state. But get them in QT asap and start treatment.

Good luck

stunted as in stunted growth?

OK so basically are you telling me im f**ked? I treated it like a fungus yesterday and changed water and medicated with Jungle Fungus Guard (works with my cichlids everytime). What can I do besides change water?

[Skip]

Turbo..
your not F'd.. just keeping doing the water changes, that the best thing for them.. meds should be last resort.. and if you are new to this, like i am, Meds could do more damage then good.. so its best to ask the more experienced people here BEFORE you start adding anything other then chlorine remover...

besides you paid 15 for the fish.. i lost 3 $10 ones, ammonia/new tank.. at least they weren't $150, fish.. its a learning experience.. thats all.. learn from it, and see what works and what doesn't ..

good luck! : )

ps.. stunted as in MIDGET Fish.. is that way i look at it..

[dsmturbo23]

Turbo..
your not F'd.. just keeping doing the water changes, that the best thing for them.. meds should be last resort.. and if you are new to this, like i am, Meds could do more damage then good.. so its best to ask the more experienced people here BEFORE you start adding anything other then chlorine remover...

besides you paid 15 for the fish.. i lost 3 $10 ones, ammonia/new tank.. at least they weren't $150, fish.. its a learning experience.. thats all.. learn from it, and see what works and what doesn't ..

good luck! : )

ps.. stunted as in MIDGET Fish.. is that way i look at it..

well I can already see one of my other guys is circling the drain...guessing his infection (if thats what we are calling it is getting the best of him)

i can only hope that one or two of these guys makes it. If not...they will die and i will wait a couple months before trying it again... letting the tank get really really nicley acclamated. Then i shall get some new discus and try again!


but lets hope one or two of these guys survives

[Skip]

one of mine kind of looked like your little guy.. once i started doing larger water changes.. it was TOO MUCH for him.. but if you have pigeon bloods, i think they are tougher fish (someone else mentioned this also).. the bought two from a LFS and the rest of the shipment was bad.. they seemed more perky then the others.. and those two have survived thru all of the BAD WATER chemistry.. go figure..

you have a good plan.. keep going with it!!

[srusso]

one of mine kind of looked like your little guy.. once i started doing larger water changes.. it was TOO MUCH for him.. but if you have pigeon bloods, i think they are tougher fish (someone else mentioned this also).. the bought two from a LFS and the rest of the shipment was bad.. they seemed more perky then the others.. and those two have survived thru all of the BAD WATER chemistry.. go figure..

you have a good plan.. keep going with it!!

PB are a hardier breed, at least in my findings.

But we are a bit off topic now, Turbo you would do yourself a favor and buy your next group from a breeder here in the forum. Now that you realize what a good fish is you want to get yours from a good breeder. You will be much happier! Sorry you had a hard start with keeping discus, and the only "steal" that you got with these discus is your money... You should bring back the fish you got and express that your pissed off about the low quality stock you got from their store. Be sure to have other customers hear your rant and demand you at least get store credit for the ones that are still alive! Buy some basics with the credit, like filter media or dry food... I hate getting ripped off!

[lissy]

Hi again :) I have a gravel bottom and driftwood and planted tank and I would call myself an amateur learning! but it is easy with a gravel tank and I know that a denitrater and ro system are expensive but if you can save.! in the long run you are going to save thousands on water changes and possibly fish. My discus love their gravel tank and I only do 2 buckets a week till denitrater takes over and readings are o ammonia. 0 nitrite. 5 nitrate or less my ph is 7 and temp 30 c. I don't work for aquaripure or anything but tests speak for themselves and the discus love it!;) p.s my tank is 200 gallon.

[lissy]

:)hi again:o ready risk a beating, I would put rock salt 2tbsp per 10 gal in tank and raise temp to about 32 c don't know what that is in fht,but do this for a week. Temp raising causes bac to multiply and when this happens salt stops them in their tracks and bac can't survive also gives fishes internals a break. Can't hurt trying!::)

[srusso]

Start you own post, don't hijack this one...

[lissy]

:)d:Hi Ruso! i'm not trying to "hijack" anything, I'm just trying to help a fellow discus person sort out a very worrying problem anyhow I was on this post before you so maybe you r doing the "hijacking". Ithought this was a friendly forum:angel: to be able to help each other!:(

[joey8483]

Just a few things. discus do not like salt. ph changes are not tolerated well so i would stick with what you have naturally and not try to change it. if you do enough water changes your tank will not even cycle really as ammonia will not even have a chance to build up. i would make sure you age city water also a big problem is most people believe if you add condidioner your water is ready. set up a tub with a airstone and always have enough water to do a water change on hand make sure tub water is the same temp as tank water. if you're just starting out. keep it simple. 25% water change every other day bare bottom tank with sponge filters and maybe a small back filter. age your water and change it often. your fish will get healthy calm down and destress. the thing with discus is if they stay healthy by not having any stress they wont get sick.ammonia should never be a issue.you need to change water often. clean uneaten food out if you see any

[srusso]

I disagree Joey, having discus in a tank during the time it is cycling is very dangerous. I understand that he could do water changes to keep the ammo in check, but you are running a very fine line... You have to think of simple things like, what if there was an emergency of some kind? Or he couldn't get home because of traffic, really anything that prevents you from getting to your tank! It's simply not worth the risk, and is bad advise IMHO.

Like playing russian roulette... 5 people get the luck of the "water change", but it ends very badly for one...

[lissy]

Hi joey! discus will handle salt as long as you use it only for medication and not all the time. 2 tbspn per 10 gal. The trick is only 1 week at a time and after water changes replace only amount removed. Also take temp up to help salt work. Salt can be a discus lovers best friend!:)

[kaceyo]

Salt is one of the best treatment available for treating freshwater fish. There are no toxic meds involved, it's inexpensive and can be found at a moments notice. It doesn't effect the bio-filter either.
I have used it at up to 3tsp (1tbsp) per gallon (not 10gals) for up to 7 to 10days with excellent results.