Worms and live foods

[Discus master]

so I have been reading a lot about this lately trying to get some answers, as I am dealing with some sick fish. As some of you may know I am dealing with what I believe is to be a worm infestation and I am treating my fish for it rite now with some of those medicated garlic flakes. Well I had a couple of questions for those of you who ever had to deal with this. One how will I know I am sucesful? I know the obvious they will begin to feed again normaly and put on weight again, but what I mean is how long does this normaly take. Beofre the conclusion of treatment during after weeks latter what? When I am finished with the treatment can I expect my discus to go back to eating normaly once again eating like little pgis with fins? or will it take some time? How long beofre I decide I should try something else and this did not work?
Secondly, if the worms can be intorduced with live foods than how is it that can not get infected with frozen foods? these were alive at one time? is it that the worms have no host to live on becuse the food is now dead and frozen? or is it the freezing process what kills the worms? or am I worng all together and even frozen worms can infect the fish and it does not nesisarly need to be live foods, and the other explaination I read on how the fish can get it is that they have it prior to the fish ever getting into my tank to begin with.

But if thats they case I have had the fish for about 3 months now and this just seem to come up a couple of weeks ago, althoguh I did ead tha the fish can carry this with no obvious sighns for a long time but thats if they were adult fish whcih mine were not and that young fish normaly start to waste away farily quickly. SO many Questions So many questions I would apreciate if some one can even try and answer some of them and try and help me understand this a bit more as I am fining out discus and fish diseases can be quite counfusing topic in deed. thanks in advance!:confused:

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
You have a quite a bunch of questions there... some I can answer...some you need to do some digging to understand better what you are dealing with....

Often times when we talk about discus you hear they have "worms" followed by the question of how they got them ? and of course how to treat them and how to prevent them from getting them again. Simple enough questions..right?

Wrong. Discus don't get "worms" in a generic sense....Discus and all species of fish are infected from time to time with various species of worms... some belong to a large group called nematodes and others to other groups like the cestodes (tapeworms) Why does it matter? a worm is a worm right? yes and no..it matters because different worms have different life cycles...some reproduce directly in the fish, others require intermediate hosts, still others are ingested as eggs ...Some use birds as a vector, spreading with the birds droppings..point is...theres alot of different kinds of worms, and many ways a fish gets them.... thats why we often fall back on general dewormers like levamisole or flubendazole/fenbendazole...These meds are a shot gun approach.. something we often need because worms can be hard to identify and often only sacrificing fish to a lab or ones own microscope is the only way to really know what you have and if its gone once you treat.
Anyone curious on worms should take some time reading up on them... a very good reference for nematodes is found in Simply's library, courtesy of Florida Cooperative Extension...
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/nematodes.shtml

To answer the question on freezing...generally Freezing by itself does not kill all pathogens....some parasites are remarkably hardy....


I have had the fish for about 3 months now and this just seem to come up a couple of weeks ago, althoguh I did ead tha the fish can carry this with no obvious sighns for a long time but thats if they were adult fish whcih mine were not and that young fish normaly start to waste away farily quickly.
How fast a fish shows signs of a parasite has to do with how healthy they are parasite aside and also on genetics and water quality and nutrition... a Fish kept in the best of water and given excellent nutrition and sourced from genetically sound stock generally has a good immune system and can keep parasite pressures in check....stressed, weak, genertically lacking fish kept in sub optimal conditions can't....Its the same for all living things that have an immune system.


When I am finished with the treatment can I expect my discus to go back to eating normaly once again eating like little pgis with fins? or will it take some time? How long beofre I decide I should try something else and this did not work? It can take weeks to months for a fish to heal from a parasites effects... and in all honesty...some never will...others will generally recover but if they were young, they may be stunted. Sadly, we rarely know a fish is fighting worms until they are overtly sick and they have shown behavior and/or appetite losses.

hth,
al

[Discus master]

Hi,
You have a quite a bunch of questions there... some I can answer...some you need to do some digging to understand better what you are dealing with....

Often times when we talk about discus you hear they have "worms" followed by the question of how they got them ? and of course how to treat them and how to prevent them from getting them again. Simple enough questions..right?

Wrong. Discus don't get "worms" in a generic sense....Discus and all species of fish are infected from time to time with various species of worms... some belong to a large group called nematodes and others to other groups like the cestodes (tapeworms) Why does it matter? a worm is a worm right? yes and no..it matters because different worms have different life cycles...some reproduce directly in the fish, others require intermediate hosts, still others are ingested as eggs ...Some use birds as a vector, spreading with the birds droppings..point is...theres alot of different kinds of worms, and many ways a fish gets them.... thats why we often fall back on general dewormers like levamisole or flubendazole/fenbendazole...These meds are a shot gun approach.. something we often need because worms can be hard to identify and often only sacrificing fish to a lab or ones own microscope is the only way to really know what you have and if its gone once you treat.
Anyone curious on worms should take some time reading up on them... a very good reference for nematodes is found in Simply's library, courtesy of Florida Cooperative Extension...
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/nematodes.shtml

To answer the question on freezing...generally Freezing by itself does not kill all pathogens....some parasites are remarkably hardy....

How fast a fish shows signs of a parasite has to do with how healthy they are parasite aside and also on genetics and water quality and nutrition... a Fish kept in the best of water and given excellent nutrition and sourced from genetically sound stock generally has a good immune system and can keep parasite pressures in check....stressed, weak, genertically lacking fish kept in sub optimal conditions can't....Its the same for all living things that have an immune system.

It can take weeks to months for a fish to heal from a parasites effects... and in all honesty...some never will...others will generally recover but if they were young, they may be stunted. Sadly, we rarely know a fish is fighting worms until they are overtly sick and they have shown behavior and/or appetite losses.

hth,
al

Thank you for the insigh and information I will be sure to check out the link you provided. All but one seems to be doing much better now and all but the one has begun to eat from my hand again, sadly I think the one a blue turq may just be to far gone to bring back only time will tell how he does he was growing out nicely in the begining for me, he still has his round shape but is very thing I will have to kep my fingers crossed with him I think. thanks again

[Keith Perkins]

If you have a single fish that is still not doing well, you might consider investing in a cheap 10 gallon tank to use as a hospital tank to continue treating just that fish. The advantages of doing this is that you'll use less medication because your treating less water, you'll decrease the chances of that fish reinfecting your other fish, and you perhaps won't be over medicating fish that are otherwise now healthy. Just a thought.

[Discus master]

If you have a single fish that is still not doing well, you might consider investing in a cheap 10 gallon tank to use as a hospital tank to continue treating just that fish. The advantages of doing this is that you'll use less medication because your treating less water, you'll decrease the chances of that fish reinfecting your other fish, and you perhaps won't be over medicating fish that are otherwise now healthy. Just a thought.

No thats a good point infact I have a 14 gallon set up I am soaking some driftwood in rite now I was actually considering doing this to tell you the truth for those reasons you just stated, thanks for bringing it up thugh becuase now I think I will definatly do this tonight.

[diveshooter]

If you have a single fish that is still not doing well, you might consider investing in a cheap 10 gallon tank to use as a hospital tank to continue treating just that fish. The advantages of doing this is that you'll use less medication because your treating less water, you'll decrease the chances of that fish reinfecting your other fish, and you perhaps won't be over medicating fish that are otherwise now healthy. Just a thought.

+1. I'm going through pretty much the same thing with one of my blue turks
right now. I'm on day 5 of treatment.
Treating a 10 gallon hospital tank is a lot cheaper than treating a 90 gallon display tank.
Good luck, I hope your fish pulls through.

[joey8483]

steralized frozen food is the best it is frozen at such a cold temp that it kills all the bugs. i had similar problems with bloodworms and stopped using them. went to the frozen never had a problem sence. medicated flake food (3) types is the regiment i used to kill the parasites i had. some guppy breeder on aquabid sells it. works really well. you can tell when its gone when the fishes feces turns color again. if your fish are really bloated you do not have alot of time

[Discus master]

steralized frozen food is the best it is frozen at such a cold temp that it kills all the bugs. i had similar problems with bloodworms and stopped using them. went to the frozen never had a problem sence. medicated flake food (3) types is the regiment i used to kill the parasites i had. some guppy breeder on aquabid sells it. works really well. you can tell when its gone when the fishes feces turns color again. if your fish are really bloated you do not have alot of time

Not bloted but thin sickly thin, my other ones are eating out of my hand again like they use to and now are eating great but the blue turq I am not sure if he had enough of the medicated flakes to work but then again he was by far the worst one off. I moved him into a hosp tank and i will see what I can do with him in there. I really need to order the stuff that goes directly into the wter seinse I am having a hard time getting him to eat. I hopoe he is not to fr gone but I bet you one thing he will never grow out rite again